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Originally posted by B

I had serious problems with the illustration for acid breath. It looks like Nebbin had too much to drink before he met the trolls [:D]

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Originally posted by PatEllis15
I am bitterly disappointed by this link. While renaming some spells doesn't matter, why are they taking the personality away from the game? They removed Mordy, Otiluke, Bigby, Kelemvor, Elminster etc from the names of THEIR spells...

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Originally posted by mordantos

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Originally posted by reezel

This book makes me regret my decision to make all my future purchases through Amazon.

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Keep saying to yourself- "34% Off & Free Shipping" [:D]

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Originally posted by jai

i ordered 3 Dragon Ante from an Amazon "associate" or whatever. never arrived but the DC from USPS states it did so the company won't do anything about it.

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Originally posted by B

Honestly, I was on the fence about picking up this book. I love spellcasters, so having all of these spells (old and new favourites) all in one place and updated for 3.5 was pretty appealing to me. I really did not like the price. Luckily, my FLGS cut me a deal that was darn near the us retail price, so I couldn't say no. if you can get it at a discount I would definately say go for it. I was probably going to buy it even if I ddin't get a discount, but I would have waited until after the holidays.

I totally understand the "Blah" feelings about the recent WotC books. The last book that I bought was the complete adventurer, but I kind of regret shelling out the money for it. It just doesn't have much that i will use. The only redeeming part of the purchase was the fact that my FLGS cut me a good deal on that too [:D] The spell compendium was the first WotC book that I really felt I had to have, and couldn't wait to pick up. The first. Ever. It's not 100% usable, but I will get a whole lot more use out of it than I will the complete adventurer. Every session since I picked it up it has made about a dozen laps around the gaming table. [:D]

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Originally posted by jgsugden

But is it making those laps because the spells are interesting, or because they are upping the power of the PCs? I have barely tickled this book (still waiting for my copy to come), but I've already decided that a few spells (mass snake's swiftness, etc ...) are too powerful for me to add them to my PC without feeling like a total power gamer.

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Originally posted by IanB

Sorry *2* cohorts. I actually left out the bard cohort, not the fighter one, since he's not likely to take an attack if the spell goes off. [:p]

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Originally posted by jgsugden

Another thing on the fireball example shoe: Fireball forces you to spread out your damage amongst many foes. With MSS, you can pile it all on one enemy, which can be a huge difference. Fireball is comporable to scorching ray against 1 foe ... mass snake swiftness often blows scorching ray out of the water - while still being very useful against larger numbers of enemies (depending upon how many, and how concentrated those foes are).

Obviously, the mass version of the spell scales in power when you change the number of allies. If you assume a solo adventuring druid with no animal companion, MSS sucks, even as a 2nd level spell! However, most druids have at least an animal companion, as well as a party with a strong weapon attacker, a medium weapon attacker and a weak weapon attacker. Many parties have *more* PCs.

Snake swiftness, by itself, is strong (30+ damage from a 1st level spell at mid to high levels? Quicken-special!) When you add in a mass version of the spell at 2nd or 3rd level ... that can effect a small army ... it is just begging for abuse. If I were writing these spells, Snake Swiftness, as written, would be a 2nd level spell, and the mass version would be 4th/5th level - with a limitation of 1 attack per 2 caster levels. Dropping 50 - 100 damage on a single enemy is at least worthy of a 4th or 5th level spell.

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Originally posted by Feathers

Do you guys all argue this much when you play? [)]

Who is the DM? And does the other one of you object with well-reasoned arguments when you disagree with something (whether it be a spell, action, or whatever) in the game?

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Originally posted by jgsugden

Mass snake swiftness is not the same as haste. If you gave me a choice between the two, I can see situations where I'd clearly choose MSS - specifically, when I have a small army with my spellcaster instead of a few PCs ("Quickly, rebels ... to arms against the demons!"), or when my foes needed to be taken down before they could respond ("Uhhhh ... my knowledge: religion check is 35 ... what spells can he cast? Powerword: Kill?").

* You do not get an extra attack from haste unless you use the full attack action. With MSS, the attacker gets the extra attack even if it moved, or performed another move equivalent action that round. So, MSS gives you an extra attack after a charge or move, while haste does not. This is huge for melee fighters. Many opponents go down in two hits by each PC ... which can happen in rd 1 with this spell. Haste still requires you to attack once in rd 1 (after moving in) and then wait for that extra attack in rd 2 when you can full attack (unless the monster moves). If you keep track of it, haste often doesn't give you more than 1 extra attack per casting (unless you're an archer ... and sometimes it doesn't even give you a bonus attack), and that extra attack certainly is not as flexible in timing as the MSS strikes.

* The attacks do not come on the creature's turn, but are done during another creature's (the caster's) turn. This allows you to effectively ready dozens of actions all at the same time. You can pile all that damage on one target at one time. If an enemy is using tactics like spring attack, flyby attack, etc ... it can make a huge difference to be able to pile damage on him all at once.

* Haste gives a variety of other benefits (longer 'duration', AC bonus, move bonus, attack bonus, etc ...). These are clearly useful, and are amongst the reasons that haste is one of the strongest (and most often cast) 3rd level arcane spells (haste, fireball, lightning bolt, dispel magic). If Haste were a 4th or 5th level spell, I think it'd still see a lot of use ... So even if you think that MSS shouldn't be higher level than haste, I'm not sure you can say that MSS shouldn't be 4th or 5th level.

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Originally posted by Feathers

Do you guys all argue this much when you play? [)]

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Originally posted by IanB
How can you go through life being so wrong all the time! [:)]

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Originally posted by IanB
I think it is safe to say that in any combat more than a couple rounds in length, haste will provide significantly more benefit than MSS, just from the movement speed advantage alone.

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Originally posted by IanB
I don't think it is worth worrying about honestly. Use it with your druid and we'll see if we can break it. I bet it turns out to be fine.

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Originally posted by Benimoto

Also, I don't think it should be a requirement that all new spells are never better than haste or fireball.

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Originally posted by Testament

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Originally posted by Benimoto

Also, I don't think it should be a requirement that all new spells are never better than haste or fireball.

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I disagree here. Considering that Haste in particular is one of the best spells in the game, all the way to 20, any 3rd level spell that's better than Haste has serious issues.

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On the matter of MSS, I'll give you a scenario that shows how horrendously broken it can be. Proactive counterspelling. When you've got allies threatening the enemy caster, use MSS as a readied action against the enemy's casting. Watch the concentration DC soar.

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Originally posted by Benimoto

I guess I phrased that poorly. What I meant is that I don't think it should be a requirement that all new spells are never better than haste or fireball in any situation. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any new spells?

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Originally posted by Testament
Oh hell yes. Situational spells are always welcome. I'll say it now, that Haste is insanely good for a 3rd level spell, I'd take it at 4, and even look closely at it if it was a 5th. It's just THAT darned good (while 3.0 Haste was so insanely good I'd take it as a 9th!). Its just that if a new spell is better for general force multiplication than Haste, and its the same or lower level, then something is SERIOUSLY wrong here. For an example, see Wraithstrike.

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