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Scarecrow
Sergeant
788 Posts
    
 | | 12/05/2005 5:42 PM |
| In Oriental Adventures there was a class called the Sohei. I was wondering if anyone know if it was updated for 3.5?
I heard a rumor that there was an update done in dragon magazine, but I don't know if this is true. If so, can someone post the issue number for me? Many thanks. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 6:51 PM |
| | Yeah there is one, If someone else doesnt post it, I will dig it up tonight and post it. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 8:56 PM |
| Dragon Magazine #318.
Converts much of the OA crunch to 3.5. I'm not totally satisfied with some of the decisions, but I haven't yet gotten around to doing my own version. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Scarecrow
Sergeant
788 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:49 AM |
| | Thanks guys, much appreciated. I always thought the Sohei was a great idea, but it didn't seem quite able to compete with some of the other classes. I was hoping 3.5 fixed it a bit. | |
I need a newcastle... | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/06/2005 12:14 PM |
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I had a level 6 Paladin fight one and it won easily...Sohei's are much much weaker than Paladins and not worth it at all, not until the very late levels anyways. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 4:27 PM |
| H2H fights are never a good way to tell whether a class is good or not. I could run a lvl 20 wizard against a lvl 20 paladin and the paladin would have no chance. Conversely, I could run a tricked out lvl 20 monk and crush the lvl 20 wizard. The better test is how well two classes perform their roles in an overall party environment. Such roles might be healer, primary damage caster, tank, damage dealer, etc. When comparing Sohei and Paladin, it's more about who is the better tank or fighter. Probably the Paladin on both counts, and the Sohei can barely keep up even with all his special abilities. But just because your Paladin can stomp on a Sohei in a pre-arranged dual doesn't make the Sohei worthless.
I really like the Sohei. Frenzy, damage reduction, d10 HD, martial spells makes for a very nice class. It is hurt by its medium BAB. With good BAB progression, it might be broken though.
Here is what my Dragon mag says about the 3.5 Sohei:
-They gain the Diehard feat at lvl 3. This replaces the Remain Conscious feat.
-They gain Greater Frenzy at 11th lvl. Their Str and Dex bonus increases to +4, the penalty they suffer for flurry of blows is reduced to -1, and their speed increases by 20 feet during frenzy.
-At 17th lvl, they gain Tireless Frenzy. They are no longer fatigued after a frenzy.
-They gain Whirlwind Frenzy at lvl 20. Str and Dex bonuses are now +6, there is no penalty for flurry of blows, and speed increases by 30 feet.
-They gain DR 1/- at lvl 7. It improves by 1 more every 3 levels thereafter.
I can't say I am very happy about how they nerfed Vanara in the 3.5 update. And I do wish they had done something to beef up the Bladedancer, a really cool class in concept that loses out significantly in power when compared to other classes. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 4:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
I had a level 6 Paladin fight one and it won easily...Sohei's are much much weaker than Paladins and not worth it at all, not until the very late levels anyways.
Thats like saying a fighter is better than a cleric because at 6th level in a head to head the fighter wins. Alot of things change that. A cleric needs setup time etc to cast buffs etc and get the full use of their abilities. | |
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Scarecrow
Sergeant
788 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 5:14 PM |
| | I was thinking about changing the BAB to that of a fighter, but I think it would be broken. I was looking on various threads, and supposedly there are some great builds. Can you imagine the flurry of blows with full BAB? That would be sick... but kind of cool to see. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 5:26 PM |
| Yeah. I agree. Sohei would be slightly overpowered with ftr BAB, but he is slightly underpowered at cleric BAB.
Here are 2 ideas I was just kicking around to make the Sohei better in combat:
1) During frenzy, instead of flurry of blows, give the Sohei ftr BAB. So for that duration, he gains the fighter's attack bonus. This would give him extra attacks if his BAB is high enough. So for a limited time, he can be as good as the fighter, and maybe even better with his buffs. But he doesn't have the fighter's longevity in battle, since he can only do this a limited number of times per day and only for a set number of rounds.
2) Expand his spell list to include more buff spells, like magic vestment, shield of faith, divine favor, divine power, righteous might, etc.. I can see spells being the big equalizer, as it is with clerics vs fighters in melee combat. But in order for this to adequately beef up the Sohei, he would need a better spell list. I'd pretty much give him every buff that the cleric has on his spell list, and even downgrade some of them a level so the Sohei can get access to it earlier. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 5:49 PM |
| Let's analyze option 1, I'm curious:
Consider a level 10 sohei, with and without the changes. BAB is +6. We'll assume a strength of 10 pre-frenzy and no other to-hit bonuses, since we're just looking at the raw differences.
So, our sohei is attacking at +6/+1 without using his frenzy. With frenzy, he goes to strength 12, gets an extra swing, and takes a -2 on all attacks, putting him at +5/+5/+0.
Compare to the 'you get fighter BAB' version. When frenzying, the fighter BAB version ends up at +10/+5.
So, we can see it looks better at level 10 to get the fighter BAB, unless you're dealing with low AC opponents.
What if we bump it up to a level 15 sohei (we now have greater frenzy)?
Sohei not frenzied: +11/+6/+1
Sohei old version frenzied: +12/+12/+7/+2
Sohei Feathers version frenzied: +17/+12/+7
Again at 15 it looks reasonably in favor of the fighter BAB version.
Level 20 (whirlwind frenzy)
Sohei not frenzied: +15/+10/+5
Sohei old version frenzied: +18/+18/+13/+8
Sohei Feathers version frenzied: +23/+18/+13/+8
Now we're in clearly superior territory for the later version, rather than an AC dependent situation. So, I think that's one way to improve the sohei over the old version, although it doesn't really kick in hardcore until the higher levels. Interestingly the difference stays at +5 in the end, as the loss of flurry penalty is offset by the widening gap in BAB.
Another option would be to also give them greater flurry (like monks) sometime in the mid levels.
That would put the level 20 sohei at:
+18/+18/+18/+13/+8, which I think is pretty strong.
The other approach (buffing spells) I think would be tough to take without beefing up not only the spell list of the sohei but also the caster progression. Buffing spells are a weak option for rangers and paladins with their low caster level and limited number of spells, so for it to really be a strength for the sohei I think they'd need a faster progression (bard level? might be too much) and probably full caster level.
One of the things I don't care for in this version is how late the improved frenzies come. I think they could easily be at levels 7 and 13 without breaking the class. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Scarecrow
Sergeant
788 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:10 AM |
| Nicely done Ian, thanks.
Looking forward to your version of it if you ever get the chance. | |
I need a newcastle... | |
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Zenako
Commander
3468 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 10:36 PM |
| Nice analysis, but I think the net benefits of the Frenzy extra movement and swing is being discounted too much by assuming low adds to the BAB values. The difference look more extreme this way.
My character in the OA campaign I play in has Sohei as one of her starting classes (all PCs started as 2nd level characters). With Strength, Feats, Magic etc, those bonuses probably dwarf BAB at low to mid levels. I did a lot of optimatization spreadsheets back in the early days and concluded that it was essentially a given that taking the extra Frenzy blow was the right thing to do (unless the AC of the opponent was such that you would now miss on a roll of 19) and that is pretty unlikely at low to mid levels.
The Figher BAB is easy to achieve with the spell Divine Power (IIRC).
In the 3.0 version (which I play) the Remain Concious feat has come into play more than once, as has the immunity to stunning ability. The one area I think could be improved without breaking things might be the spell progression. If a Sohei needs to spend a round buffing a spell, to be a good as a fighter then they are not attacking the foes that round. Most battles we have are only a few rounds long these days, so losing a round or two to cast spells is a huge portion of the action. Give them a faster progression for casting, right now they hardly get any spell slots and it takes forever to gain decent level spells. Keep the max spell level at four like it is now, but go to something like the Bard progression. We were able to take the Templar Prestige Class in this Campaign which does have a faster spell progression. My Character is currently Samurai 4, Sohei 5 and Templar 8. I routinely get to cast some of the Templar spells, but only have a small handful available and must pick them ahead of time. For a variety of reasons, I almost always have Invisibility Purge Handy...grin.
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Scarecrow
Sergeant
788 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 9:00 PM |
| Thanks Zen,
I was actually leaning towards faster spell progession as well. I think the idea of matching it to the bards is great. | |
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