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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
    
Wadsworth, OH
 | | 12/07/2005 10:16 PM |
| I've been toying with the idea of a character that fights with a sword and shield. Could I get some suggestions? I've got some good ideas but I am curious as to what you guys have already/can come up with.
I was thinking of taking these feats:
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Charge
Shield Slam
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Two Weapon fighting
Improved Two Weapon fighting
Greater Two Weapon fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting [allows me to shield bash with a large steel shield for only -2 penalty]
Im also considering feats like:
Double Hit
Combat Reflexes
Sidestep
However I am not sure if these will be of much use. I can see double hit being useful as one trick this guy can do is charge an opponent with his shield, do damage, get a free trip attempt on his opponent that can't try to trip him back, then the opponent has to make a fortitude saved of be dazed for one round (cannot take actions). double hit, i believe, would give me an extra swing with my main hand weapon on a chrage, then i would get a free attack thanks for improved trip. Sidestep might be useful as when the guy stands up i could get a free attack then take a five foot step. Preferably away from him as, unless he has reach or a ranged weapon, he would not be able to attack me that round since he spent a move action to stand up. If I were only able then to have a reach weapon in one hand I could get another AOO as he closed with me. What do you guys think?
As an aside, I think it would be cool if they implemented things like shield charge/bash/slam into the skirmish game. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:24 PM |
| I have a player who,recently, has begun playing with the sheild feats.
He fights with a weapon in one hand and sheild bash with the other.You definitely need two weapon fighting and improved shield bash.
One thing you might want to do is get a spiked shield, spikes not only increase the damage but change it to piercing as well as blugeoning. | | | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
Well i posted this on the wizards forums and they pointed out some problem with the feats that do not quite work the same way that I had intended. Double hit is only on AOO, but it might be useful for when people stand up after being tripped. The people there simply suggest getting a bucker and using a two handed weapon with improved buckler defense.
Are you trying to min-max or go for something different/cool? The buckler (w/ buckler defense) and a reach weapon is super min-max.
I really enjoy playing sword/board warriors. Two weapon fighting and shield bash is a must (as mentioned before). Instead of trip, you could get a locking gauntlet for your sword hand and employ improved disarm. A longsword or bastard sword (if you have an exotic weapon feat to spare) are good choices for sword board as you can power attack one handed and have the option of dropping the shield to power attack two handed. If you have enough two weapon fighting feats to be useful, cleave and great cleave are handy ... nothing like having a lot of attacks ... and getting even more. The tower shield i would stay away from, they really are built mainly for front line defense against archers and cavalry ... not a mobile item (in my opinion).
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 11:51 AM |
| Have you plotted out the feats by level?? It looks like you won't be able to do all the fancy dancy stuff untill around 12-14 level and that is if you are going straight fighter. You are going to have to make sacrafices. If you are planning on certain feats, then you want to be sure that the fighter is going to be effective at levels 1 - 11. There is a reason that alot of medieval fighters from knights to peasant militia went "Sword and Board," it is very effective. D&D does the worst job of any system on the shield. A shield is more effective for defense than most forms of armor in melee combat and the game system gives it a +1 or +2 to AC? Unless you get all the feats, it really isn't worth it in most cases. Either go two handed with two damage causing weapons, or go power attack with a two handed weapon.
As far as feats go, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Crit are also really good choices. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 12:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
D&D does the worst job of any system on the shield. A shield is more effective for defense than most forms of armor in melee combat and the game system gives it a +1 or +2 to AC? Unless you get all the feats, it really isn't worth it in most cases. Either go two handed with two damage causing weapons, or go power attack with a two handed weapon.
I don't entirely agree. While I certainly do wish that a shield gave you a little more AC bonus than just a +1 or +2, sword and board can be very effective through both feats and magic.
The bonuses you can add to a shield through magic make it a very effective and affordable form of defense. Having +4 armor costs 16,000 gp + MW armor cost. Have a +2 shield and a +2 armor costs 8,000 gp + MW armor & shield cost. You're essentially getting the same AC enhancement for 1/2 the cost leaving you 8,000 gp to spend on other magic items for even more defense, offense, etc. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 1:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
D&D does the worst job of any system on the shield. A shield is more effective for defense than most forms of armor in melee combat and the game system gives it a +1 or +2 to AC? Unless you get all the feats, it really isn't worth it in most cases. Either go two handed with two damage causing weapons, or go power attack with a two handed weapon.
I don't entirely agree. While I certainly do wish that a shield gave you a little more AC bonus than just a +1 or +2, sword and board can be very effective through both feats and magic.
The bonuses you can add to a shield through magic make it a very effective and affordable form of defense. Having +4 armor costs 16,000 gp + MW armor cost. Have a +2 shield and a +2 armor costs 8,000 gp + MW armor & shield cost. You're essentially getting the same AC enhancement for 1/2 the cost leaving you 8,000 gp to spend on other magic items for even more defense, offense, etc.
Yes... when you get up to a +2 shield or so, it can start be be of significant benefit. But most game systems actually give a shield parry, negating an attack, which is much more effective and "realistic" than being a little bit harder to hit.
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 12/08/2005 2:36 PM |
| Well this would be my character advancement by level.
Human Fighter 20
1. Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.
2. Combat Expertise
3. Shield Charge
4. Improved Trip
5.
6. Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Powerful Charge
7.
8. Greater Powerful Charge
9. Shield Slam
10. Power Attack
11.
12. Cleave, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13.
14. Leap Attack
15. Combat Reflexes(Improved Critical)
16. Double Hit(Weapon focus)
17.
18. Dodge, Mobility (Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus)
19.
20. Sidestep(Improved Weapon Specialization)
To be honest im not sure if the feats from level 15 on are really worth taking. They do have some use, but I think I would probably get better returns from other feats. I'll list a few in parenthases that I might take as well.
This is all just conjecture however. At the moment I am playing a campaign where I am playing a Half Orc wielding a spiked chain. Think of Rask, only a couple levels higher. I even use the Rask figure. [:p] | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 4:14 PM |
| I don't really find the shield feat chains to be especially effective, they require a billion feats to get you to a point that isn't really that exceptional.
Lab Monkey touches on the real value of the shield, which is in the enhancements you can give it. The AC bonus part of that enhancement is only one piece of it; in the late game, you really benefit from the other enhancements you can get on the shield and armor. Shields can get the fortification enhancements, so if you're a shield user you can be crit/sneak attack immune and still have another +5 worth of bonuses to play with on your armor. | |
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mordantos
Underboss
1210 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 5:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Lab Monkey touches on the real value of the shield, which is in the enhancements you can give it.
Absolutely. A crafting wizard of mine ended up getting a Cleric Henchman (a former PC whose player moved) who used a two handed sword. It a was a pain trying to get him all the enchantments I could put on the partys fighter's item (he being a "sword & board") | | | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 4:52 PM |
| A few ideas on this:
1. Tempest might be a good idea; it would give you a number of options like applying greater weapon specialization to both your shield and your main weapon.
2. Another option that I'm considering is taking shield feats but not going the two weapon fighting route. (Though it's mace and board rather than sword and board)
1. Power Attack, weapon focus: heavy mace, improved bull rush
2. Improved Shield bash
3. Shield Charge
4. Weapon specialization: heavy mace
6. Shield charge, three mountains style
8. Shock Trooper
9. Greater Weapon focus: heavy mace
10. Improved Sunder
12. Greater weapon specialization: heavy mace, combat brute
The basic premise is that, whether you charge or make a full attack, your enemy probably has to make a save or be dazed. And when you charge, you also get a free chance to trip your enemy too. (If you're mean and don't care about destroying any particular weapon, you can also use the AoO for standing to sunder an enemy's weapon and then cleave through into the enemy).
After that, there would be a number of routes to go, depending upon allowable materials. If you can use Player's Guide to Arcanis, Avalanche would have great synergy with what you've already got (since it allows an attack after a bull rush--this would be a nice way to synergize with advancing blows and domino rush). If you have a 13+ dex, dodge+mobility+elusive target would be a great route (and would really help on the charge--possibly knocking your enemy prone before you hit and letting you dump all your base attack into power attack, displace the penalty onto AC, and not worry about getting power attacked to death on your enemy's turn--assuming he makes the save and isn't dazed). Ability Focus for either of your daze abilities could work well, as could Wolf Beserker, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. You could also take levels of barbarian to improve your daze DCs during rage. If allowed, Leap Attack would also work well with it. You could do the same thing without the shield feats, of course, and you'd do more damage on the charge, but you wouldn't have the chance of dazing your opponents or knocking them prone on the charge which sets up your full attack for even greater success (especially if they are dazed AND prone).
Given the proper situation, you might well be able to get every single feat to work together over the course of two rounds. (Charge-heedless charge (shock trooper)--power attack--sunder--sundering cleave (combat brute)--shield charge--shield slam+ round 2: full attack weapon focus, weapon specialization--power attack--three mountains style--momentum swing (Combat Brute)) | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 5:22 PM |
| I love Double Hit on my rogue. Getting those extra sneak attack dice is amazing.
Standing up provokes AoOs, right? If you had double hit, I think you could do something like trip, (opponent stands), sunder/disarm, sunder/disarm. That could make an opponent ineffective in short order, I would think. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 5:32 PM |
| Yeah, standing up provokes, as does crawling out of the square (can't adjust when prone.)
This is sort of an annoying rules situation from my perspective, hence the following house rule in my game:
You can stand up as a full-round action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
My hope is that this will be an attractive enough option for tripped people that they'll use it, which will get rid of silly situations that come up like fighters preferring to make all their attacks from the prone position after getting knocked over, instead of standing up.
IMO the advantages of tripping someone are enough without the extra advantage of the opponent having no recourse besides staying prone or taking an AOO. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 5:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Yeah, standing up provokes, as does crawling out of the square (can't adjust when prone.)
This is sort of an annoying rules situation from my perspective, hence the following house rule in my game:
You can stand up as a full-round action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
My hope is that this will be an attractive enough option for tripped people that they'll use it, which will get rid of silly situations that come up like fighters preferring to make all their attacks from the prone position after getting knocked over, instead of standing up.
IMO the advantages of tripping someone are enough without the extra advantage of the opponent having no recourse besides staying prone or taking an AOO.
The other week, we had a dwarf that went down due to HP loss. The same round he went down, he recieved two healings from wands and was right back in there. He made his full attack from a prone position and killed the giant.
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