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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9970 Posts
    
United States
 | | 12/16/2005 9:48 AM |
| Guys,
I have a party full of adventurers who are (almost) all in the 17-20 level range, and some of them will be breaking into epic territory this Sunday when we play next. While none of the characters in this group is a single-classed wizard or sorcerer, there is a single-classed cleric in the group, and some of their future enemies will be very high-level wizards and the like.
When the campaign started, I expected the uber-enemies to be in the CR 34 to CR 37 range, so there's still plenty of room to grow.
I've been seriously rethinking the epic spells (a cool idea, but very weirdly done, IMHO). I've always thought that there was no good reason to limit spells to 9th level. Consider the following ideas.
A) A Greater Wish spell that is roughly one link up in the chain that starts with Limited Wish. It will be more powerful than Wish by about the same amount that Wish is more powerful than Limited Wish. And, it'll be about 11th level.
B) A spell that grants a weapon the temporary property of overcoming DR/epic. I'd think that this should probably be higher than 10th level too, but I'm not sure (especially since so little work has been done in the higher-than-9th-level-spell area).
I'm all for allowing the current system to continue (where you have to use feats to get spell slots of 10 and higher, and where you can use metamagicked feats to fill those slots). But, I also think that there could legitimately be spells that are higher than 9th level without any such feat-based modifiers.
Has anyone already worked out such a system already? I'd like to compare notes.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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notserious
Sneak
114 Posts
| | 12/16/2005 12:04 PM |
| there are enough differences that you probably can't make a direct translation, but Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved develops its character levels to 25th and includes 10th level spells(IIRC). There might be some ideas on what to do/where to go with the concept that you can use.
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Zenako
Commander
3445 Posts
| | 12/16/2005 12:31 PM |
| You could consider something along the line of a Cleric being able to access more domains (supported by their diety of course) as they advance into the Epic levels. Something like a new domain list getting added every odd level. It would add to the possiblities of the cleric without having to develop a number of new spells, for not only the PC's but the NPC's you will be needing to populate as well.
Once you are considering granting things like Epic Wish, all other spells are redundant in a certain sense of things. Need to tread carefully with uber powerful spells since the warrior half of the equation, while getting more powerful, will not be making strides of that magnitude in power or effectiveness. I know in the main game I play in most of the characters could keep on going to something close to 30th level before any class would be topping 20 due to split classes and prestige classes already taken.
However, just like a prestige class tops out in power at level 5 or 10 for example and there is no more to be taken, perhaps you could handle it the same way with regular classes and just make it that there is nothing more to be taken at that point in that class. To become a more powerful cleric, you need to start either a Prestige Class or something like Epic Cleric which has starts as a 1st level Epic Cleric with a few abilities, perhaps nothing to do with the normal cleric spell list at all. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/16/2005 2:08 PM |
| We ditched the weird epic spells mechanic in our epic game as well; the DM has been slowly developing spells that fit into higher level slots (we don't play it very often.)
The easiest ones to extend upward I think are the spell chains, like the monster summoning ones. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 12/16/2005 2:24 PM |
| Yeah, basically what I did for those slots is make up spells that roughly correspond in power to a metamagic-ed lower level spell that would be that slot.
So for example, an empowered meteor swarm would be 11th level, so a spell that did that much damage in about the same way should be 11th level.
A couple of 10th+ spells I made up convergently showed up in the Spell Compendium as lower-levelled, like Greater Plane Shift. Harrumph.
In practice, I made them a smidge more powerful to compensate for that you had to take Improved Spell Capacity to get the slot. If you were going to give out the 10th+ slots automatically then you shouldn't do that.
I did limit the number of spells wizards get above 9th level to one per level, mostly because I didn't have a whole lot to choose from. All the other stuff proceeds normally, though, like a Concentration check to cast a 13th level spell defensively would be DC 28, etc.
One sample simple attack spell:
Infernal Ray
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A white-red ray of liquid flame springs from the caster's hand. A ranged touch attack is required to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d10 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d10).
Focus: A ruby cut into a prism (250 gp).
Some "upgraded" standard spells:
Hand of Death
Abjuration
Level: Druid 15, Sor/Wiz 14
Targets: Up to five living creatures.
This spell functions like finger of death, except that up to five living creatures within range may be affected by the spell.
Meteor Swarm, Greater
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 13
This spell functions like meteor swarm, except that eight meteors are created.
Power Word Kill, Mass
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Death, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 14
Targets: One or more living creatures with 100 hp or less, no two of which can be more than 30 feet apart
This spell functions like power word kill, except that it affects multiple creatures as noted above.
As for how it works in play -- well, the party wizard had one 10th level slot, and a handful of bad guys did too, but it really didn't come up that much (total of maybe four or five sessions at these levels), so it's hard to say.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/16/2005 2:56 PM |
| One thing to keep in mind for the epic spells that are in all of the books, is they all cost alot of EXP. Both to develop and to cast. The big advantage of daily castings for those 10th, 11th, 12th+ spell slots are the metamagic feats. There is nothing quite like a maximized, emopowered, quickened, vile scorching ray.
Epic spells are guarded jealously by their owners and should never be casually found. The rules for the development of epic spells help to ensure their rarity. They are supposed to be the ultimate in magic, it is best to keep them as such. An "Unlimited Wish" is actually something that is talked about alot whenever a campaign reaches epic levels. Something to keep in mind... Limited Wish costs 300 EXP and Wish costs 5000 EXP to cast. Keeping that going the same way, an "Unlimited Wish" would cost a min of 84,000 EXP to cast (rounded up.)
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 12:11 AM |
| I admit to never having used Epic spells in play before. My campaigns never get that high, whether as a DM or player.
However, the epic spell mechanics do seem really clunky and overly complicated. The concept sounds cool. Research your own spells and create personal spells of power beyond that achived by normal spell slots. And then tie a skill check to creating and casting them. I don't mind that. But the execution leaves much to be desired.
I don't know that I like just progressing spells further up the level chain and creating better fireballs or better stoneskins, etc. That's not a jab at anyone. So please excuse the bluntness of my post. I'm just trying to envision a cool new spell system that is appropriately "EPIC" (representing a higher power) without being too complicated. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 2:18 AM |
| | He has fancier ones but those are SUPER SECRET INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OMG. [:0] | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9970 Posts
United States
| | 12/18/2005 12:14 AM |
| proudft: Thanks for the examples. That's kinda where I was thinking of taking things myself.
Thanks too, to everyone else so far for their input.
I like Zenako's idea of extra domains for clerics. And, in general, the idea of having to switch classes isn't a bad idea either. Hmm...
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 12:52 AM |
| | Note that there is already a mechanism for epic clerics to get more domains - the Extra Domain feat. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 12:55 AM |
| | I forget, was it Summon Monster X that had nothing poor CG me could summon? That was the saddest thing ever. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 1:38 AM |
| Not originally, but I added anarchic greater cyclops (CN) and celestial firbolg (CG) to the list for ya. I don't remember if we had played that party after that.
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 1:50 AM |
| One of the fancier (i.e., more unique) spells, as an example. I didn't want to clog up the thread with random crap that may or may not be useful to anyone -- BUT YOU HAVE TAUNTED ME INTO IT! MUHUAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!1
(This spell is most useful for evil undead lich necromancers who want to kill the peasants, but hey, they've gotta have spells too).
Death Fog
Conjuration (Creation) [Evil]
Level: Sor/Wiz 10
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft + 10 ft / level)
Effect: Cloud spreads in 40-ft radius, 40-ft high.
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No
This spell creates a large cloud of utterly black fog summoned from the negative material plane that affects all living things as follows:
6 or fewer HD: slain (no save)
7 to 12 HD: slain (Fortitude save, if successful, take 1d6 Con and 1d6 Str damage and 1 negative level)
13 or more HD: 1d6 Con and 1d6 Str damage and 1 negative level (Fortitude save for half damage and no negative level)
Creatures who remain in the cloud continue to take damage and make saves each round on their turn. Holding one's breath does not help, nor does resistance to poison. Protection from negative energy completely prevents damage from the cloud.
The area affected by the death fog is shrouded in absolute darkness. Even creatures with darkvision are limited to 5-foot visibility (20% miss chance on creatures in adjacent squares, 50% miss chance for farther).
The cloud is semi-sentient and moves up to 20 feet per round (including up or down) so as to surround the most number of living creatures, whether allies of the caster or not (or the caster himself, for that matter). It will remain in place if that results in the most number of creatures affected. If all creatures in the immediate vicinity are slain, the cloud can sense living creatures at a distance of 1 mile and travels at 2 miles an hour overland.
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 2:09 AM |
| I think my last piece of advice for you on this whole thing, Vrecknidj, is that you might not want to put a whole lot of planning into the long-term stuff until you decide that the epic levels are playable for you and your players. There are a few things that come up that might make all this moot after you play for a while:
- The preponderance of save/die effects. Our party's wizard really takes a beating on these. Frankly, I've lost count of the number of times he's died. We use open-ended rolling (rules are somewhere in UA) to help a bit with this, but it still is something inherent in the spell system. And then the poor player has to sit there until he gets raised, and it's just not really fun. It's not even his fault, it's just that the enemies ought to toast the wizard, he's going to fail a save eventually, and that's that. Happens every week, gets old pretty quick.
- The time-consuming nature of making enemies for the party. After not too long, you run out of published monsters of the proper CRs, basically you've used all the non-silly ones. At this point, you have four choices: advancing published monsters in HD, give them class levels, use high-level NPCs, or make up your own monsters. Presumably you have a way to make these threats exist in the world plausibly -- their "realisticness" is a whole separate issue, but a relatively minor one. The real problem is that it takes a while to do all these stats. Somewhere around level 22 or 23, I found that it was taking longer to make the stats for a enemy than it would last in combat, and that's sad.
- The player's turns start to take a long, long time. People with two weapons have between 5 and 7 attacks almost every turn. Wizards with quickened spells, time stop, and forty memorized spells eat up 10 minutes per turn (this is not an exaggeration, we got a timer to limit him to 1 minute of decision making, but the physical dice-rolling and counting takes frickin forever). The in-game preparation also takes a long time. ("We're attacking a demon fortress tomorrow? OK, lemme re-do my spells!" takes a half hour right there.) When haste got 3.5-ed, it cut this down a bit, but only temporarily.
I'm not trying to be discouraging, of course -- it's still fun to drag out this party on occasion -- but it's definitely a lot of work in both preparation and play. Running it every week, though, would be like a full-time job.
I'm sure that this same thing will happen to any group in the epic levels, but at different points depending on their various play styles, pickiness about sticking to the rules, and preferences. For me, it was around level 25 when the fun really started to break down. Even if you last longer, say to 28 or 30, then all that work you put into levels 35+, not so useful. It's time-consuming enough keeping everything running for the party at their current level without thinking ahead to stuff that might not get used. But who knows, maybe epic play will knock your socks off and you'll be having fun all the way up to 50 and further!
Don't sweat it too much, it'll either be fun, or it won't, and if it's not, you can always start a new first level party. Piece of cake in comparison.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 10:57 AM |
| quote:
- The player's turns start to take a long, long time. People with two weapons have between 5 and 7 attacks almost every turn.
My Current character is 11th level and I make 5 - 7 attacks per round. (Five is my norm, 6 with boots of speed, 7 with boots of speed + an Action Point.) By the time I am 18th level (if I live that long)... I will have 8 - 10 attacks. My turn goes in less than a minute.
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Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2290 Posts
Toronto
| | 12/18/2005 12:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
However, just like a prestige class tops out in power at level 5 or 10 for example and there is no more to be taken, perhaps you could handle it the same way with regular classes and just make it that there is nothing more to be taken at that point in that class. To become a more powerful cleric, you need to start either a Prestige Class or something like Epic Cleric which has starts as a 1st level Epic Cleric with a few abilities, perhaps nothing to do with the normal cleric spell list at all.
That is not quite true, for PrC's that are a full ten(10) levels you can proceed to 11th level but that would be considered Epic and couldn't be done until Character level 21. The are a number examples on what should happen during those epic levels. (Such as re-occurring abilities proceed as the same rate. Like the uses per day of Defensive Stance for a Dwarven Defender.) | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 12:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
quote:
- The player's turns start to take a long, long time. People with two weapons have between 5 and 7 attacks almost every turn.
My Current character is 11th level and I make 5 - 7 attacks per round. (Five is my norm, 6 with boots of speed, 7 with boots of speed + an Action Point.) By the time I am 18th level (if I live that long)... I will have 8 - 10 attacks. My turn goes in less than a minute.
I congratulate you on your good addition skills, then. I think the two main problems we have with this in practice are that we play the party relatively rarely so people are bit unfamiliar with the base numbers (and then, of course, because it was a pain, we play the party less often, and we're then stuck in a loop), and then the always-changing variable modifiers of spells that are cast on them, so the numbers are always different (the latest innovation here is giving everybody a 3x5 card to scribble their current spells on for reference, and precalculate the current attack bonus). Plus you throw in cleaves and sneak attacks, and you're lucky if you remember what attack you're on.
For sneak attacks, out of desperation, I finally just had the rogue add a flat number for most of his dice and roll a couple of them.
But the main problem is prep time, the other issues are all able to be dealt with some way or another. But if I don't have time to make an adventure, then there's no game, obviously.
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 2:34 AM |
| | If it makes you feel better, I still have warm fuzzies from meeting my god and saving the WHOLE WORLD YAY. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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Zenako
Commander
3445 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 3:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
quote:
- The player's turns start to take a long, long time. People with two weapons have between 5 and 7 attacks almost every turn.
My Current character is 11th level and I make 5 - 7 attacks per round. (Five is my norm, 6 with boots of speed, 7 with boots of speed + an Action Point.) By the time I am 18th level (if I live that long)... I will have 8 - 10 attacks. My turn goes in less than a minute.
Just curious about how you manage that many attacks in a round with a BAB of at best 11 which would get you three base attacks? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 4:26 PM |
| | Adding 2 two-weapon fighting feats adds 2 off hand attacks. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/19/2005 5:23 PM |
| When my original version (before a little psychic reformation) of my high level barbarian 4/rogue 21 wanted to lay a little smack down, he was rolling up to:
9 standard attack rolls (4 normal with primary, 4 with off hand due to perfect two weapon fighting, 1 bonus from haste) + however many great cleave or AoO inspired attack rolls popped up in the round. So, if there were enough targets of the appropriate type, it would fall between 9 and 15 attack rolls per round. With the exception of the haste roll and the first primary attack roll, each standard attack had a different AB, so I had to keep careful track of which AB I should be adding. In addition, the use of spells (from scrolls via UMD, or from allies) constantly forced great variation that made the numbers shift by as much as 8 over a session.
After we determined if I hit, I was doing +11d6 sneak attack damage (which neded to be written down so that I could inflict the damage again on the next round due to lingering strike), as well as my current strength (which changed due to rage/spells) damage, plus the
other flat bonuses due to spells, plus the base weapon damage (which included energy/holy damage that had to be checked against resistances/alignment).
So, for each of my 9 to 15 attacks, I was figuring out what the current ABs were, rolling to hit, checking for resistances versus the current weapon's holy/energy damage, rolling more than a fireball's worth of dice of damage. I used spreadsheets to minimze the time it took for this, but there was no way for me to get my attacks to less than 12 seconds per attack, as Malin Lug does (what - does he miss on every attack?). It took closer to 20 seconds per attack. That was three to five minutes for my turn. 120+ die rolls and checking dozens of numbers on various sheets does take time.
When proudft (my DM for that game) whacked off a lot of these issues by forcing average sneak attack damage, it saved some time, but not enough. I finally had to psychic reform the PC so that he'd give up a bunch of those attacks - just to keep the game moving.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 5:52 PM |
| Yeah, the combat math at high levels is exceedingly excessive even for non-rogue two-weapon fighters.
The ranger in the group also has a million different pre-made attack lines with different totals of power attacks, etc., and it still takes her forever when she has to add in buff spells, favored enemy bonuses, etc - and then there's figuring out what happens on a crit. Crits happen a lot when you take 7 attacks per round and have a 17-20 crit range.
The only complicated thing with my fighter, by comparison, are crits. When power attack is the only important variable it doesn't take that long. Other than that, 4-5 attacks with a single weapon and no sneak attack are pretty easy. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Zenako
Commander
3445 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 3:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Adding 2 two-weapon fighting feats adds 2 off hand attacks.
They stack like that? All I thought the feats did was reduce the onerous penalties a bit (by -2) from the BAB killer -6 and -10 penalties. | |
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| The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 3:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Adding 2 two-weapon fighting feats adds 2 off hand attacks.
They stack like that? All I thought the feats did was reduce the onerous penalties a bit (by -2) from the BAB killer -6 and -10 penalties.
The first one reduces penalties, the second one (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting) adds the second off-hand attack. | | | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 4:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Adding 2 two-weapon fighting feats adds 2 off hand attacks.
They stack like that? All I thought the feats did was reduce the onerous penalties a bit (by -2) from the BAB killer -6 and -10 penalties.
You must still be playing 3.0 and not 3.5. Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting were combined into one feat in 3.5, and there are extra core feats now to get more iterative attacks with the offhand - before I think they were in the splatbooks. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Zenako
Commander
3445 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 5:41 PM |
| | Yah, the high level campaign I am in is basically 3.0 since we started years ago with it, and the PCs are 14-18th level now. I recall looking over 2 weapon fighting as an alternative to two handed weapon fighting and not liking the math. Since we are a predominantly Oriental Adventures game, shield are not much used so that was not an option. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 5:45 PM |
| | I had awhile back a generic book that had very high level spells we tried them and found some to be just weird and one in particular was unbalancing it was called the spell of last resort or something similar. Basically you cast it as a swift action with another spell and the second spell had its range aoe damage and duration tripled. So a meteor swarm was 12 not 4 meteors 3x damage 3x aoe etc.. the down side was you had to make a system shock save or be killed permanetly no cance of raise dead even if you passed you were weakend and unable to cast morspells for 24hrs. It was supposed to represent the caster tapping into his life force to power the spell. But by the time you got that one you could just wish for success on your next save and boom no more uber bad guy. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9970 Posts
United States
| | 12/29/2005 10:35 AM |
| Fearfrost: those are exactly the kinds of things I'm trying to avoid. I've seen spells like that too, and they just don't make any sense to me.
From what I've seen, most campaigns never make it to such high levels, and of those that do most campaigns fall apart at very high level. I have a campaign that is going to keep going until about 40th level, and so I'm trying to work out a spell system for 10th level and higher spells that are 1) not epic spells, 2) of a fairly even power with the existing 10th and higher level spells (i.e. quickened power word kill, etc.), and 3) useful enough to justify taking but not so powerful as to eliminate the need to use those slots with metamagicked spells.
I may have to go the route of forcing any players to submit their own proposals, and just leaving NPC spells within a narrow band of very specific choices.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 4:47 PM |
| | Sorry didn't really complete my thought I was pointing out that most of the epic level spells I have seen are either way too powerful or abusable or just kinda lame. The best solutions I have seen are upgraded versions of existing spells but these tend to lack in variety. Fortunatly(or unfortunalty) my usual campains rarely if ever get close to this level. I just don't have the time to play as much any more. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9970 Posts
United States
| | 12/30/2005 9:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
Sorry didn't really complete my thought I was pointing out that most of the epic level spells I have seen are either way too powerful or abusable or just kinda lame. The best solutions I have seen are upgraded versions of existing spells but these tend to lack in variety. Fortunatly(or unfortunalty) my usual campains rarely if ever get close to this level. I just don't have the time to play as much any more.
I don't either. I try to game around once a month, and that's not too bad, really. Once upon a time it was at least once a week--but those were the pre-bills days. [:)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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