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Zenako
Commander
3468 Posts
    
 | | 01/18/2006 6:26 PM |
| | We don't tend to worry about those with uber stats too much, they seem to flame out sooner in many cases, between taking more chances and having that invincible feeling, which the monsters don't seem to share[:)]. As mentioned a few pages back, our current games tend to be 4ch3 assign to stats and you can dump the stat matrix if the net bonus is equal to or less than +2. 3.0 and later with the easy access to stat boosts (both spells and items) makes starting stats a bit less significant with respect to being able to access spells or abilities. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/23/2006 3:24 PM |
| By the way:
http://www.math.mcgill.ca/~loisel/dnd-stats.html
Interesting read. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/23/2006 8:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
By the way:
http://www.math.mcgill.ca/~loisel/dnd-stats.html
Interesting read.
The author neglects one key fact when reaching his conclusion that a 25 point buy character doesn't model a 4d6 best 3 character effectively: A point buy system is more exact in the placement of stats, so there will be few points wasted in high stats that do not benefit the character often.
As an example, which character would you rather have as your PC in a hack and slash game if you had to play a melee fighter:
1 Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Chr 08 (point buy cost 34)
2 Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Chr 14 (point buy cost 36)
Point buy sacrifices some of the points you're likely to roll under a 4d6 method for the exact placement of stats. In actual perfromance, a 25 or 28 point buy character will match up pretty well with a character that was roll on 4d6 and ended up with the equivalency of 28 - 32 points. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 01/23/2006 11:02 PM |
| A little off topic but I found a site that lets you figure out your real world stats and posted it in the off topic forum.
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14338 | | | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 01/24/2006 10:59 AM |
| Lord, my group has just this problem. Our "official" method of stat acquisition was the 4d6 drop the lowest, assign as necessary. Then, one game, we ended up with stat separations so grand, we didn't have a way out of it. One character had an 18, a 17, and a 16, with his lowest stat a 12. Another, in the same game, had two 16s and a 17. While two of the others in the party didn't roll a single 15, and one even had a 7. It broke the game before it began. The high stat players didn't want their good fortune erased by my helping the low stat ones, while the low stat ones didn't want to play so out classed. To be fair, I could see where their problem was. I wouldn't want a character with 14, 13, 12, 10, 10, 7, when my buddy had 18, 17, 16, 12, 13, 14. So, we then went on to point buy. But, it caused a disparity between the classes that needed a bunch of stats and the ones that could just throw 'em all into one. So then we went to a DM approved array, but everyone complained about not even having the option of an 18. So, now we use a DM assigned array, much higher than it should be. Something to the tune of 18, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10. This makes everyone happy--except the CRs. So then we bumped the CR of encounters up by two....and everyone seems pretty happy.
Another thing I'd like to throw in here is the oddness of the 18 for a spellcaster. It almost seems necessary. Save DCs don't go up as fast as saves do, and using a lower number makes even your best spells chancy at best. And fighters aren't punished in the same way. A well made fighter will function fairly well with a 14 Str, but a wizard with a 14 Int is pretty pathetic. | |
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Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
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Zenako
Commander
3468 Posts
| | 01/24/2006 11:24 AM |
| But this is where the 3.0 and higher rules kick in with all sorts of stat enhancing items. I started play with a Samuari/Sohei who had something like 17,14,13,10,10,10. Well WIS,INT and CHA all ended up with 10's with the knowledge that should I succeed in life I would be picking up things like Periapts of Wisdom that would allow me to later cast spells once I reached spell casting levels. At something like 17th level now, I have 20 Str, 10 Int, 10/16 Wis, 14 Con, 14 Dex and 10 Cha still. As a secondary spell caster (PrC Templar) I do not need very high wisdom since most spells are not DC needing, nor do they go over 4th level in effects.
Our DM has a rule where if the net bonus is +2 or less, then you can ditch the character and reroll. So the "poor" character listed above would qualify for a reroll if the player wanted to. Perhaps something as simple as a minumum net bonus for a keeper. Game power could shift that upwards a bit if you wanted to to something +4 or even more if the game is to be even more high powered (and threaten to break the CR system...) | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 01/24/2006 11:49 AM |
| Well, I think the "better stats, higher CR" system works for our group simply because of the perception that the DM's control over the game, the higher CR in this case, actually helps to accentuate the overall "cool" factor of the party. Lets face it, no one plays D&D because its fun to be average or a little above. We want to be the special ones, the people who save the kingdom. Our unorthodox (and, in my mind at least, somewhat unsatisfying) solution actually helps that feeling along. And the DM enjoys it, as it gives him a little more flexiblity in his enemy critters.
Also, in an unrelated note, I love the idea of an "Iron Man" Call of Cthluhu game, using the D20 rules. We are so doing that. I can see it now..."Everyone roll up your character; 3d6, in order." Player:"Why do we have six character sheets?" DM: "Go ahead and roll up some extras---you'll probably need 'em. Soon." | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 01/24/2006 11:20 PM |
| Re: Iron Man Call of Cthulu--I thought that was the point of CoC. Nobody's supposed to last long. Naw, you want wackiness in CoC, roll 6d6 and drop the lowest. That might get the characters to the third session... [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
To be fair, I could see where their problem was. I wouldn't want a character with 14, 13, 12, 10, 10, 7,...
Wow--someone else rolls like I do!
To be fair, I have played those characters with players who were known to use "questionable" dice when rolling stats, and it's possible to survive and thrive in that environment. But as others have said; It's no fun playing a "normal" person--I wanna be someone exceptional! For me, D&D has been about more about heroes and less about the average schmo thrust into unusual circumstances.
But that's just the way that I've played it before. Some games, it probably works better if there are more "zeros" than "heroes" and they're probably just as fun.
But I'd still rather play the hero. [:D] | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 1:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by A Can of the Cave Beer
But I'd still rather play the hero.
It isn't a question of some people wanting to play the hero and others not ... everybody wants to play a hero. The division is more between those who want to start as the hero and those who don't mind developing into the hero.
(I can do either, but prefer the second.)
D&D, with its rapid and dramatic advancement, definitely is engineered toward the second. A game like Shadowrun, where the PCs start out head, shoulders, waist, hips and thighs above the common man, is an example of a game catering to the former. | |
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 4:03 AM |
| 4d6 drop the lowest. Roll six scores and arrange as prefered. If the player is absolutely not satisfied with the character abilities rolled and it seems too underpowered to measure up with the other PCs in the group then rerolls are in order, but let's not get carried away with that. It is after all important that the players enjoy the game to remain interested and having a character that they like to begin with really helps in that department.
As a DM I don't usually worry too much about the posibility of over powered PC's, I feel that it's the DM's responsability to create that balance. How you do it is up to you and bottom line is that there's always a way. | |
John
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 2:40 PM |
| Well, a dire shark ate one of the PCs in my weeknight game last night, and I watched the player roll up an amazing set of stats for his next guy:
17 17 16 15 13 18
Point buy value of 55! Not sure where he'll end up slotting those stats (like it matters much.)
That said I'm not particularly worried about challenging the party even with this brute along (I rather expect he's going to end up as a warforged monk or barbarian.) | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 01/27/2006 9:41 PM |
| Through first and second edition campaigns over the years, we have used a variety of methods. Most of the times we rolled 3d6 six times, assigned as you like... but you would roll until you got a character you liked. I like the 4d6 methods the best, ,because with the point buys the stats ended up being much more min/maxed, and many of the characters ended up looking the same.
I just started DMing a new campaign, and we used a variation...
Roll 4d6 six times, drop the lowest. Roll out six characters, and pick the one you want. Assign rolls to abilities as you like.
Also, I started them out at 2nd level - with max hit dice for the first two levels.
My thoughts on this is that it does create more hero like characters, and it lets me be tougher on them without fearing TPK since the extra HP helps with survivability. It gives players a choice on characters to play, and feedback so far has been good. The characters they have made have also been unique, but not uber. About half of the party is dual classed, with decent stats for both.
I think it will work out well./
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 01/29/2006 7:58 PM |
| I rather...
quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
which method do you all prefer
3) the 4d6 best 3 and assign as you see fit
That´s my favorite and traditional way to make characters, as master i give 7 attribute throws taking appart the lesser one, usually gives decent characters.
But i know that the character don´t depend on atributes if not in level :) | |
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hazel monday
Warrior
338 Posts
Baltimore MD
| | 01/29/2006 8:13 PM |
| best 3 out of 5d6. roll 2 sets.
it definitely makes characters stronger, but it allows you to throw tougher opposition at them | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 02/03/2006 11:54 PM |
| My group has a lot of players from 2nd Ed where you had to have really high stat scores to get ability bonuses. Because of that they have a holdover house rule on rolling up characters. You roll 4d6, reroll any 1's, then drop the lowest. This makes characters with pretty high stats.
I've noticed the craziness in this as a DM because they tear through appropriate CR baddies faster than they should. So you up the CR to challenge them and they level up faster. They level up faster, but don't get enough treasure. They run into an encounter where they need certain items, and they die.
I've put a lot fo thought into this, and I've decided that perhaps the best way to do characters is a point buy system. I know a lot of people really like the rolling, but the chance of getting a really bad chaacter, or unbalancing-ly good character is just too much, even when using the standard book version of 4d6 drop lowest. | |
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