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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
    
 | | 01/07/2006 9:49 PM |
| Ok I'm really struggling to help a relatively new player build a dwarven cleric for my new Greyhawk game. Clerics aren't exactly my one of my strengths.
This player is going to be a Dwarven Cleric of Moradin taking full advantage of the racial substitution levels from Races of Stone. We're starting this campaign out at 1st level and will likely play these characters as high as 17th-20th level. He was over at my house earlier today and we rolled up a character. He knows that basic rules, but isn't familiar with the myriad of supplemental books available so I was trying to offer him some help. We ended up not finishing because we couldn't decide on his feats.
Here are the ability scores we came up with after racial adjustment:
Str 15, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 17, Chr 8
We dumped his skill points in the standard: Conc, Spellcraft, and split between Know, Religion and Know, Dungeoneering. He may do some reallocation to free up some skill points for some character development skills (he's thinking about perform, singing).
Domains are likely to be Earth and Protection.
Now onto feats. Because he's sacrificed turn undead due to the dwarven racial sub levels, many (but not all) of the divine feats are out.
At 4th level, he'll get Martial Weapon Proficiency, Warhammer for racial sub. levels, so that's out.
From the Player's Handbook:
-Scribe Scroll would be useful and is probably the best choice. However it's kind of boring and my campaigns tend to do relatively little item crafting.
-Combat Casting fits the flavor of the build well and is definitely an option, although my days on the Min/Max boards at WotC tell me it's not really worth it.
-Metamagic feats are relatively unuseable for several levels.
From Complete Divine:
I'm not coming up with much. Augment Healing sounds nice. The divine feats again are out.
From Complete Warrior:
Most of the feats he'd take wouldn't be available at 1st level.
From Races of Stone:
We both really liked many of the feats here. There are several very interesting options flavor wise, but I'm not sure they're worth the return investment. Specifically we were thinking the Earth Sense tree (Earth Sense, Adept, Master, and Spell) and the divine feats which are based of ability to rebuke earth creatures (Earth's Warding, Divine Damage Reduction, Divine Spellshield, and Roots of the Mountain). Ancestral Knowledge also has great flavor, buti isn't likely to be very useful.
Anything else you can think of? I have virtually every 3.5e suppliment to draw from (not including the FR and Eberron stuff).
Any help you can offer, including as suggested feat advancement, would be greatly appreciated. Flavor is as important as crunch, but the character does have to be able to serve as a functional contributor to the party.
Just for reference, I think the rest of the party will include a human barbarian, human sorcerer, elf ranger, and gnome rogue. This character will be responsible as a tank warrior type, divine caster and party medic. He won't have to play the social monkey, the rogue and sorcerer will be covering that role.
Also suggestions on PrCs would be great as well. Not too many fit what we're going for here (a dwarven melee cleric with an intimate connection to the earth) so he may just go for uninterupted advancement as a cleric. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 01/07/2006 10:10 PM |
| To bad you don't have the Eberron books there is a nice dwarven feat in the races of Eberron that could be usefull.
Mror Stalwart: Dwarves gain a +1 bonus on all damage rolls made with dwarven weapons as long as you don't move on the round you attack. Dwarven weapons are described as battleaxe,dwarven waraxe,or dwarven urgrosh. Also if you have a certain feat that applies to one of the above weapons you can apply it to all three i.e. if you have weapon focus or Improved critical on the dwarven waraxe the feat also applies to the other two. The feats that count towards this are: Improved critical,weapon focus,weapon specialization,greater weapon focus,and greater weapon specialization. There is an additional benefit if you spend an action point, you add the action point dice roll to the damage.
You could always adapt the feat to the region of origin of the dwarves in your campaign.
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 01/07/2006 10:13 PM |
| I haven't played a character with augment healing personally, but I've played in groups with one, and from a other-person-in-the-party perspective, it's a pretty handy feat. ;)
I play a cleric that can't turn myself, and I have to say, feats were most boring to pick for her out of any of my other characters. There's certainly no harm in picking metamagic feats early, and scribe scroll is handy even if you don't have a LOT of item creation time. But feats are going to mostly be meh for him, I suspect.
As for a prestige class, maybe he would like the Earth Dreamer one in Races of Stone ... it's all earthy and his spellcasting progression would stay the same. Plus his first feat could just be Earth Sense (a prereq) and you won't have to worry about feats again until he's level 3. ;) | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/07/2006 11:09 PM |
| I'm currently playing a dwarven cleric of Moradin ... a weapon- and armorsmith. The domains I chose were Earth and Craft.
Before he decides on Earth (a good one) and Protection (eh) domains, or on substitution levels, check out the Metal domain in Spell Compendium -- Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with the warhammer, and decent domain spells. It's what I would have chosen. (I ended up with both feats by 3rd level, well before the Compendium was released.)
The 1st- and 4th-level racial substitution levels in Races of Stone is worth it, IMO, but the other one isn't. The 4th-level sub is only worth it if the character doesn't take the Metal domain.
As far as feats go, don't laugh, but consider Endurance, with an eye toward Diehard. If this is a party tank, he wants to be able to sleep in medium armor, which Endurance allows. (And, at higher levels, mithral plate counts as medium ... ) And Diehard, which I'm convinced is almost always a sucker feat, works for clerics, who can often heal themselves or others while in the negatives.
Augment Healing is a very powerful feat, with the Sage recently settling an argument as to its functioning ... he came down on the side of strict wording and power-gaming.Any Conjuration (Healing) spell benefits from Augment Healing ... even those that don't heal HP damage. ([i]Lesser restoration[/], for example, would heal ability damage as normal, plus 4 HP.) Anyway, it's a powerful feat, but I've avoided it because it's another step toward pigeon-holing the cleric as a walking medkit. My cleric is a divine warrior and master smith, not a damned medic-on-demand. Your player's mileage may well vary. | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1684 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 12:11 AM |
| Don't count out Ancestral Knowledge too quickly either. Your intelligence is only 13 (+1) while your Wisdom is 17 (+3) so you instantly gain a +2 boost on all Knowledge skills (including Dungeoneering & Religion) as well as being able to attempt ANY knowledge check with a minimum +3 bonus. IMO that's pretty good mileage, and it can help fit quite well with roleplaying: "My grand-pappy once told me about a situation sort of like this one..."
Instead of Combat Casting, I believe I've heard that Skill Focus (Concentration) can be a better choice -- it's +3 instead of +4 but applies more frequently. At least that's the theory -- I haven't had it come up in my games but we're also reasonably lax about following rules to the letter.
Scribe scroll is incredibly useful for any spell caster even if he only has half a day to work on them. It takes very little time to scribe 1st or 2nd level spells, allowing him to work up a bunch of seldom used but occasionally necessary scrolls as back up for unusual situations.
Finally, shoring up weaknesses might be an option -- not exciting, but an option. This includes Endurance/Toughness as alluded to above, or even Lightning Reflexes as his Dex is low and as a cleric he won't be getting much help in that progression. | |
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AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 1:21 AM |
| | Augment healing is always handy. I recommend it to almost any priest. | |
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dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 1:57 AM |
| There is a good PrC for the combat-centered cleric: WarPriest. However, he will lose spell casting, so it isn't a great choice with him as the only cleric.
If he gets in a real rut and wants a PrC, Contemplative isn't a bad alternative.
Feats?
Augment Healing = teh bomb! It's a great feat to shore up the healing of a party.
Extend Spell isn't bad. Clerics have some amazing personal buff spells. Extending their utility can be *very* helpful if the cleric will be shoring up the party as another melee combatant.
Combat Casting is on the same level as Toughness: pre-req only. Yeah, it will help in the early levels. However, it, like the heal skill, rapidly lose efficiency.
I don't own Races of Stone, so I have no idea about any of those feats/PrC's. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 2:08 AM |
| | I actually think the augment healing feat makes the cleric less of a medic-on-demand; you use fewer spells to fully heal people, thus leaving more spells over for doing other stuff. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 2:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I actually think the augment healing feat makes the cleric less of a medic-on-demand; you use fewer spells to fully heal people, thus leaving more spells over for doing other stuff.
As I said, it's a matter of pigeon-holing the cleric, not necessarily a matter of mechanics. (Although the opportunity cost of a feat isn't inconsiderable.) If a character has the Augment Healing feat, what's his function in the party?
All together: "Healer!"
My cleric does the healing, yes, but it's understood both by players and PCs that he's a warrior-priest-smith ... any healing he can do is great, but not his focus. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 2:19 AM |
| Well, I find that in general the feat choices for clerics are pretty "meh" so the cost isn't as high as it might be for another class.
I get your point, though. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/08/2006 2:50 AM |
| What about good old fashioned martial weapon feats? Power attack, cleave, weapon focus, etc...? I play a dwarven druid, and I'm one of the party's primary melee guys. A cleric can serve much the same purpose. It looks like he'll be a secondary melee force in this party, sharing time on the front line with the barbarian, ranger and rogue. As such, it wouldn't suck to be able to beat down some enemies with his melee abilities.
I'd personally choose power attack and 1st, and cleave at 3rd. They're very powerful feats for anyone that will be in melee. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 4:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I'd personally choose power attack and 1st, and cleave at 3rd. They're very powerful feats for anyone that will be in melee.
In my experience, clerics at low- to mid-levels don't hit often enough to spend BAB on Power Attack, nor hard enough to get many Cleaves. (This changes at about 11th level, given the right spell selection.) In any event, Power Attack will be completely useless until 2nd level.
A cleric works better as a tank-target, IME. Until righteous might and such, they're strictly second-rate melee attackers. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/08/2006 8:08 AM |
| Well I'm currently playing a Cleric in a PBEM game.
My choosen feats were Combat Casting and Augment Healing (I'm human)
I know some say Skill Focus is an over-all better feat, but I'm also a fighting cleric. So I plan to spend alot of time in melee and and the additional +1 from CC is worth it to me.
Augment healing is the Feat to have if you want to be a healing machine combined with the Healing domain, it really helps at those lower levels. (especially with a barbarian in the party, these guys are always getting hit.)
At higher levels AH isn't that useful...but then again if you die at level 4 you don't have to worry about the 'what ifs' at level 13.
Just my thoughts on those two feats. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 01/08/2006 10:28 AM |
| I suppose if you suggest Lightning Reflexes, he might think that maybe he's going to be walking into a lot of fireballs over the course of his early career. There's nothing quite as discouraging as losing your cleric to a trap or spell early in a dungeon crawl . . .
His Ref save is going to suffer during his entire career, so this isn't a bad choice.
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 11:42 AM |
| Thanks for the great suggestions. So far we have the following as options:
Metal Domain to gain Martial Weap. Prof. and Weapon Focus Warhammer (Great idea Wayne, my spell compendium arrives this week and we'll almost definitely be going with this option).
Endurance Feat (thematically I like this for a dwarf) followed by Diehard so that he can heal himself when <0 hp. Endurance may see some use as I tend to use extreme environmental challenges a lot in adventures (extreme desert, frostfell, etc.). How do others feel about this option?
Mror Stalwart: Nice idea for a dwarf warrior build, but this PC is likely to be fighting primarily with a warhammer so this feat wouldn't be useable.
Augment Healing: Sounds like others have had good results with this one. I'll put this at the top of my list of recommendations.
Earth Sense followed by the Earth Dreamer PrC. I'll have to look into this. The d4 HD, poor BAB, and Knowledge Nature Prereq may keep him away from this PrC. The abilities granted do seem to fit very nicely with many aspects of his character concept.
Scribe Scroll: is certainly useful in conjuction with the cleric's massive spell list. I'll also recommend this one very highly.
Lightning Reflexes: Shores up one of his few weaknesses. Several recommendations so I'll put it at the top of the list.
Combat Casting or Skill Focus, Concentration Several recommendations again.
Ancestral Knowledge I love the flavor, but this feat is rarely going to be used.
Extend Spell Maybe at 3rd level.
Power Attack, Cleave, etc. Not bad, but seeing as he's starting with a BAB +0, power attack won't be useable at all until 2nd level and won't see any real use for a few levels.
So the top suggestions seem to be:
Augment Healing
Combat Casting/SF, Conc.
Endurance
Lightning Reflexes
Scribe Scroll
Plus Metal Domain for WF, Warhammer.
Am I missing anything? Any other ideas? Thanks again for all the help so far.
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IHawk
Underboss
1054 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 01/08/2006 12:27 PM |
| I don't think that Improved Init has been mentioned. As
a cleric, most of the time your init suffers with low dex.
Going lower in the order ALL the time is fairly annoying
and your party may suffer for it.
Also, don't dismis the importance of the +4 conc check from
combat casting, it may be a waste of a feat in many folks
eyes, at least until you miss that critical healing spell cause
cause you were a few short on the roll. Comming close
to automaking the conc check at mid-higher levels is often
worth it, plus it could free up one or two precious skill
ranks to use for any PCLasses.
Good Luck, Love them Dwarven Clerics.
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 12:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IHawk
I don't think that Improved Init has been mentioned. As
a cleric, most of the time your init suffers with low dex.
Going lower in the order ALL the time is fairly annoying
and your party may suffer for it.
The thing is, going late in the initiative order doesn't hurt a cleric much. He's not going to have much Dex to lose by being flat-footed, he doesn't have great area-of-effect offensive spells to use before foes scatter, and he'll be able to react to the circumstances better. (Clerics are, by their nature, reactive rather than proactive. You really have to fight if you want to buck the tendency.)
Really the only thing the cleric loses by going late is the ability to buff the party's warriors, and if the rogue and ranger are doing a good job, he'll have that chance before init is rolled.
quote:
Also, don't dismis the importance of the +4 conc check from
combat casting
The thing is that Skill Focus (Concentration) is only 1 less, and it applies to everything, not just to casting defensively.
quote:
Good Luck, Love them Dwarven Clerics.
Yeah, me too.
BTW, Lab Monkey, I'd recommend swapping his Strength and Con, currently 15 and 16, to 14 and 17. Wisdom will probably be his first stat-bump, but he may want to consider Con, too. (And doing Con at 8th level would get him a lot of benefit.) His Str is odd at 15, so he could bump that, too, but I think he'd get more from a Con bump. And otherwise there's no much difference between 14 and 15 Str. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 1:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
BTW, Lab Monkey, I'd recommend swapping his Strength and Con, currently 15 and 16, to 14 and 17. Wisdom will probably be his first stat-bump, but he may want to consider Con, too. (And doing Con at 8th level would get him a lot of benefit.) His Str is odd at 15, so he could bump that, too, but I think he'd get more from a Con bump. And otherwise there's no much difference between 14 and 15 Str.
I'll pass that along. Orignially we went with the Str 15 because Str is the only ability score which gives you a benefit for an odd score (in carrying capacity). I agree though that an eventual Con bump, with it's retroactive hp adjustment, would be well worth considering. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 1:44 PM |
| One thing about combat casting... it gives you a +4 but only in one circumstance. Skill focus - Concentration will give you a +3 in all situations and can prove much more useful.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/08/2006 1:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
...In my experience, clerics at low- to mid-levels don't hit often enough to spend BAB on Power Attack, nor hard enough to get many Cleaves... Until righteous might and such, they're strictly second-rate melee attackers.
Our experiences differ. In my experience, cleric ABs tend to be only 1 or 2 behind a paladin, fighter or ranger until 5th level. Accordingly, they still get a lot of chances to get optimal effect out of power attack and cleave. Yes, clerics at low levels are 'second rate' melee attackers, but the original poster focused on melee combat as a primary role for this PC. I imagine that this is partly true because it is a new player, and new players often focus on melee to get their feet wet.
That being said, other melee feats such as dodge, weapon focus, improved initiative, etc ... all would make fine choices. I prefer PA and cleave because they retain high utility at higher levels.
As for not being able to use PA at level 1 ... entirely true. For that first session, he'll effectively be without a feat. That kind of sucks, but really isn't such a high cost in the long term path.
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Jeb McDonald
Sergeant
402 Posts
Central New Jersey
| | 01/08/2006 2:20 PM |
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From jgsugden:
quote:
As for not being able to use PA at level 1 ... entirely true. For that first session, he'll effectively be without a feat. That kind of sucks, but really isn't such a high cost in the long term path.
I might be mistaken, but you can't take Power Attack at first level and "just not use it" until 2nd level. You need to have the prerequisite in order to select it. That means a cleric couldn't select Power Attack as a feat until reaching 3rd level. If I'm incorrect, please let me know.
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LCS
Underboss
1896 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 5:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jeb McDonald
I might be mistaken, but you can't take Power Attack at first level and "just not use it" until 2nd level. You need to have the prerequisite in order to select it. That means a cleric couldn't select Power Attack as a feat until reaching 3rd level. If I'm incorrect, please let me know.
The only pre-reqs for Power Attack (and Combat Expertise) are minimum ability scores.
The reason they can't actually be used for anything (except as a pre-req for other feats) is because they have a maximum limit of the character's base attack bonus, and a cleric's BAB is +0 until 2nd level.
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Jeb McDonald
Sergeant
402 Posts
Central New Jersey
| | 01/08/2006 7:30 PM |
| Ahh...yes. I was thinking about Weapon Focus (needing a +1 BAB as a prerequisite). A cleric would have to wait until 3rd level to take this feat, correct (unless he/she has the War Domain or something similar).
Thanks LCS! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 12:37 AM |
| If I'm a cleric and taking a feat at 1st level that I'm not going to use, Empower Spell is more useful in the long run probably.
PA/Cleave are more useful through the mid levels but as you get into higher and higher levels, the cleric typically spends less and less time in melee, in my experience. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/09/2006 1:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
... the cleric typically spends less and less time in melee, in my experience.
Doesn't that depend on the cleric? A cleric built for melee is quite a different beast than a cleric built for spellcasting, especially at high (15 to 20) and epic levels.
By focusing on melee combat domains, melee combat feats, acquiring melee combat items, etc ... you can build a cleric that can match, if not surpass, a fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian or rogue in melee prowess.
But in the end ... I suggest ignoring all the advice you've already seen. Take the new player aside and role play out a creation scenario for the dwarf. Give him a few chances to develop a personality for the cleric. Once he does that, the feat choice will be easier to make.
And if it isn't, take improved toughness. There is something about a dwarf with ridiculous hit points that just seems so right ... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 3:49 AM |
| Well, both of the clerics I'm thinking of were even more melee-oriented than normal per the rules, since they both had access to weapon specialization.
Eventually the spells get cool enough that meleeing is a waste of time, comparatively. | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 4:27 AM |
| Tritana (24 cleric) IS built for melee, but for the most part, I'm better off NOT being in combat and melting enemies with firestorms and the like. Plus I inevitably have to heal one of the party right away. There's been a loooot of times where the first round of combat happens, and the fighter and ranger could use a Heal heal. It's been like that since ... well ... since 17, when I started playing her. [:p]
There was one (1) time I wished I had power attack ... and that was when our DM shoved us into the No Magic At All dimension.
I'm not saying it's a bad choice, but I definitely think it could be put off 'til later, if ever.
EDIT: IF I could turn and IF I could take the various divine feats that would burn turn attempts, I might feel stronger about power attack, but as the person in question ALSO cannot turn, it's not really relevent. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/09/2006 2:44 PM |
| Sjofn: I'm not sure we're describing the same thing when we say 'a cleric built for melee'.
A cleric built for melee (in my book) has 2/3 of their feats spent on melee feats. Their ability scores were structured at creation (and through advancement) so that strength and wisdom are of equal importance. They spend their resources on powerful AC and weapons. Half of the cleric's spells would be used to boost their combat ability during an adventure.
Tritana certainly has a lot of melee ability (especially with that sword), but her focus is pretty evenly balanced across the board. She does spend a lot of time healing, casting spells, etc ... which prevents her from focusing on the melee aspects. If you replaced Thorgrim (dwarf fighter) and Grundar (half-orc rogue/barbarian) with a bard and a second cleric, Tritana would likely have been more focused on melee abilities as she developed.
Regardless, I think it all depends upon the role you expect the character to fill in the party. If he'll spend 90% of the time on the front lines, he'll get a lot of bang out of front line fighter feats. If he won't, they'll be less useful. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 3:05 PM |
| Well the point I was trying to make is that as you hit 5th-7th level spells, the melee-focused path really loses its attraction for clerics. Another player in Tom's game before you started with us went 1-14 or so with a cleric, focused more on fighting than Sjofn did, and found himself leaning far more on the spellcasting as he went too - in a party without a straight front line fighter, even.
I think that in the "endgame" a single-classed cleric gets far more out of the spellcasting side than the melee side. You can make a decent melee combatant out of a cleric, but if you're going to do that you should be multiclassing (or going to a prestige class that focuses on it) anyway, I think. The important combat spells top out at around spell level 5 so if you're going to make a melee cleric, you don't really need much above that (maybe 6th level spells for a heal or two.) | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 5:10 PM |
| Ian stole my point. :(
I'm not sure how much more combat oriented Tritana can BE. She's as specialized as she can possibly be in longsword (focus/spec/imp. crit), she has martial weapon proficiency, she has combat casting, she has a high str and con, she has an armour class in the 40's, and she has an epic sword.
OK, she could have power attack and cleave ... I can even name the two feats I have that I could dump (and may well!) and not really affect how she plays (Reach Spell and Craft Magic Arms & Armour). But my time would STILL more often be better spent casting spells, because a firestorm or destruction is going to do way more than I could even do after a round of buffing myself (hooray for quicken!).
Power attack and cleave are useful at mid levels, sure ... but empower lasts forever. <3 | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/09/2006 6:59 PM |
| | Although I think Tritana could be substantially more effective in melee with a little tweaking, I think focusing on her misses my point. I can build a powerful melee fighter out of a high level cleric. This melee fighter will benefit greatly from power attack and cleave. Whether he will be of more use to a party if he steps back and casts spells or if he rushes to the front lines is more an issue of party make-up. The original poster indicated that this cleric would be on the front lines. Accordingly, as he will be melee fighting, I recommend the melee feats ... and power attack and cleave are both great melee feats. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 7:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
A cleric built for melee (in my book) has 2/3 of their feats spent on melee feats. Their ability scores were structured at creation (and through advancement) so that strength and wisdom are of equal importance. They spend their resources on powerful AC and weapons. Half of the cleric's spells would be used to boost their combat ability during an adventure.
I play a 6th level dwarven cleric of Moradin. My Strength is 16, my Con is 18, and my Wisdom is 18. (All the characters have god-like stats, due to the former DM being a pushover.) I have 63 HP. I have MWP (warhammer) and WF (warhammer). I have Craft Magic Arms and Armor, with which I've made +1 spiked full plate and a +1 large steel shield. My AC is 23. I have a +1 dwarvencraft warhammer. My attack bonus is +9. I regularly prepare bull's strength and shield of faith and use them when possible.
If that's not a "melee cleric," then I don't know what is. Here's the kicker: I do 1d8+4 damage.
Meanwhile, the barbarian in the group is swinging at about +12, for 1d12+8 damage. He uses Power Attack frequently, but sometimes misses due to it. He uses Cleave to very good effect due to high damage.
My cleric's attack bonus is simply not good enough to justify Power Attack. Against even average AC for our level (17, say) I'm only hitting 65 percent of the time. Any use of Power Attack lessens that. (There is a very nice Excel Power Attack Calculator floating around the net. Use it, if you don't believe me. Power Attack, even with my build as a "melee cleric" is hugely suboptimal except against AC 13 or lower. It's beneficial for the barbarian up to AC 18.)
My cleric's damage bonus is simply not good enough to justify Cleave. Even if I get lucky and take out a foe I've already weakened, my next swing may not hit, and even if it does, it only does 1d8+4 damage.
Please stop advancing the myth of the powerful low-level melee cleric. Such a beast simply does not exist. A cleric can't offensively hold his own in melee until he gets spells like righteous might, and feats like Power Attack and Cleave are horrible, horrible choices for such a cleric. (Arguably so are MWP and WF; I took them as roleplaying choices. I wish like a mutha that I'd had access to the Metal domain when I built the character.)
Does a cleric have any place in melee? Sure. My cleric has a ridiculous durability, with his 63 HP and AC 23. He takes a tremedous amount of heat off the barbarian, and sometimes provides flanking (for more barbarian Power Attack) and, of course, healing. But, even as melee-oriented as I've built, his offensive contribution is almost discountable. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 7:19 PM |
| You'll note I was talking about another cleric as well, and in that party the closest things we had to frontline fighters for most of the time were that cleric, a monk, and a dagger-using 3.0 ranger.
I'm just trying to get across that in the long run the player might be displeased with those choices. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/09/2006 7:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
You'll note I was talking about another cleric as well,...
I'm just trying to get across that in the long run the player might be displeased with those choices.
I did note. I have no info on that cleric. However, if he was effectively built to be a melee cleric (with power attack, cleave, a focus on strength, melee combat spells, etc ...) and if he had decent stats, he would be the most effective of those classes on the front lines.
And you're 100% right ... the player *might* regret focusing on melee feats. Or, they *might* think they are his most useful feats. It depends on *how the cleric is used*.
We're going in circles. We have different advice for the poster, and I think we've both supported why we think as we do. I could go on ad (unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention.), but I don't think it will really help anyone. If the original poster has interest in either of our suggestions, I encourage him to look on the messageboards at Enworld and at WotC to get further ideas on how to pump up the cleric and get the most bang for the buck regardless of the feat choices. | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 8:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Does a cleric have any place in melee? Sure. My cleric has a ridiculous durability, with his 63 HP and AC 23. He takes a tremedous amount of heat off the barbarian, and sometimes provides flanking (for more barbarian Power Attack) and, of course, healing. But, even as melee-oriented as I've built, his offensive contribution is almost discountable.
That's mostly what I feel my cleric's place in "melee" is too. The nigh-impossible to hit annoying person. Which generally means the DM doesn't swing at me, even if I am in melee range. :P
I don't have to be, of course, we have three other melee characters in the group and I don't feel the need to steal tanking thunder, but I sure could. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/09/2006 8:44 PM |
| UGH!!!!!!!
Grrrr ...
Barbarian at 6th level: 22 strength when raging, +1 flaming two handed sword, weapon weapon, power attack, cleave. Power attacking for 2. His attack: +13 for 2d6 + d6 fire + 14.4 (average +13 for 24.5 damage).
Cleric at 6th level: 22 strength when bull strengthed (has more bull strengths than the barbarian has rages), divine favor for +2/+2, +1 flaming two handed sword (remember ... we're talking about a melee cleric, so I'm going to go ahead and assume the war domain for a good martial weapon), weapon focus from war domain ... His attack: +13 for 2d6 + d6 fire + 12 (average +13 for 22 damage).
They are very close. Plus, the cleric can toss in an extra spiritual weapon, bless, etc ... here and there to balance things out.
When built to deal damage, instead of being built to be a tank or spellcast, a cleric can do just fine. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/09/2006 9:49 PM |
| A CON bonus is retroactive ? Does that mean he gets all the HPs he would have gotten if he had started with the new CON score ? This could make my Minotaur and my friend's Troll nearly invincible. Well, not until we get armors, but I get medium armor with a level of Barbarian next level ( for Rage only ) and then off to Warrior for feats-a-plenty...
By the way, would the +2 Vigor from a Barbarian at first level stack with my Minotaur's natural +5 vigor or would it only increase once I am at +6 vigor by a character class ? | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/10/2006 12:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Barbarian at 6th level: [...]
Cleric at 6th level: [...]
They are very close. Plus, the cleric can toss in an extra spiritual weapon, bless, etc ... here and there to balance things out.
I have no problem with this example, because it proves only this: given two full rounds to prepare, rounds in which the barbarian has done 45+ points of damage already, the cleric is ready to enter melee and get "fairly close" to the same damage the barbarian is already doing.
Sorry, John, I just don't think you made your case, even though you made every possible assumption in your favor.
Just how many 18s does that cleric have, anyway? Why does the barbarian only have an 18 Strength? Which god of war has the greatsword as a favored weapon? Why does the barbarian have a +1 flaming greatsword, rather than a +1 greatsword and gauntlets of ogre power (which, combined, are actually cheaper, and would push his net damage 3.5 points higher than you've calculated)?
And the biggest question of all: what happened to the barbarian's second attack?
The cleric is an extraordinarily powerful class. But it's strictly a second-rate melee combatant, no matter how you juggle the numbers. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/10/2006 12:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
A CON bonus is retroactive ? Does that mean he gets all the HPs he would have gotten if he had started with the new CON score ?
Yes, and yes. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/10/2006 3:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
I have no problem with this example, because it proves only this: given two full rounds to prepare, rounds in which the barbarian has done 45+ points of damage already, the cleric is ready to enter melee and get "fairly close" to the same damage the barbarian is already doing.
Yes, it requires more preparation. Is is your position that a cleric can never prepare for combat? Well, I guess all those 1 rd / lvl and 1 minute per level spells are a complete waste, then ... [)] It takes longer to prepare than a barbarian - but a party that plans can make preparations in many instances.
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Sorry, John, I just don't think you made your case, even though you made every possible assumption in your favor.
Every assumption? Did I assume Divine Might was the third cleric feats, for instance? (Another +2 to +3) Or did I use the non-core spells that pepper most campaigns (and are more effective than core spells)?
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Just how many 18s does that cleric have, anyway? Why does the barbarian only have an 18 Strength? Which god of war has the greatsword as a favored weapon?
The cleric has one 18 in strength ... just like the barbarian. I had them both focus on strength ... a logical step for a war cleric. Greatsword is not the only two handed weapon out there ... so take your pick. Even if you use a one handed weapon in two hands, you're only sacrificing a few points of damage on average. quote:
Originally posted by Wayne Why does the barbarian have a +1 flaming greatsword, rather than a +1 greatsword and gauntlets of ogre power (which, combined, are actually cheaper, and would push his net damage 3.5 points higher than you've calculated)?
And I outfitted the charactes similarly ... and your math is off. If you give him a +2 to strength (24 when raging) and had him power attack for 3 instead of 2, but take away the flaming damage, [you're adding 3 damage (strength 1 for an odd strength increase, 2 for power attack) and reducing it by 3.5 ... quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
And the biggest question of all: what happened to th |
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