wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
    
 | | 01/08/2006 9:38 AM |
| This is NOT a post about Sorcerer vs. Wizard or Why do Bards suck. This IS a post about the flavor of sorcerers and bards and a way I thought of to make them jive with my tastes (mainly as a DM, not necessarily as a player). Feel free to skip to the bold text below followed by the proposed new game rule information. It is largely copied from the section of the PHB covering how wizards copy new spells into their spellbooks.
The crux of the issue for me is that these two character classes cast arcane spells and can read arcane scrolls (even those written by a learned and aloof wizard) but they don't have any advantage in "understanding" magic because they just "get it" (although they may put ranks in Spellcraft). They can read, temporarily "understand", and then cast spells from scrolls, but if they didn't choose that particular spell as one they "know" they still don't intuitively "get it" for that spell, eventhough it might be of the same level as other spells they know. Furthermore there isn't really a mechanism for them to "do research" or learn from other casters (unless the DM enforces some additional handicap such as they must have seen/cast a spell before deciding that they "know" it when they go up a level).
I want my bards and sorcerors to be able to learn new magic. Why would they have gone to all the trouble of learning how to read arcane writing but not to understand it? Why shouldn't they be able to learn a thing or two from interacting with other arcane casters and studying their scrolls/spellbooks? I'm fine with the handicap that they must replace a spell they already know when they learn a new one. This is the "opportunity cost" that allows them to spontaneously cast those spells that they do "know." They still typically only need a standard action to cast a spell that a wizard had to spend some portion of 15+ minutes studying earlier that day in order to cast as a standard action. They have a mechanism for "learning" additional spells that replace older ones but its severely limited since they can only trade a spell 2 levels lower than their current spell level max and only 1 spell can be traded per 2 character levels (sorceror) or 3 character levels (bard).
I would like to only have a philosophical difference in how magic should employed between bards/sorcerers and wizards, not a difference in capability to understand magic.
What about the following:
A bard or sorcerer may replace a spell he/she knows with one he/she has learned from a scroll or spellbook. The new spell must replace a spell of the same level that the bard or sorcerer already knows. To do so, the bard or sorcerer must have an Int score of at least 10 + the new spell's level. He/she must first decipher the arcane writing (same spellcraft check or read magic casting as usual) then study the writing for one day (8 hours) then make a spellcraft check at the end of the day (DC 15 + spell's level) to fully understand the spell. If the check succeeds the bard or sorcerer understands the spell and can undergo the process of transfering it to their memory in place of a previously known spell (see below). If the check fails the bard or sorcerer cannot understand that particular written spell (the scroll or spellbook, not the spell itself) until he/she gains at least one rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being learned from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll until it is successfully transferred to memory (see below).
Transferring a spell to memory:
The bard or sorcerer must spend 24 additional hours studying a spell he/she already understands (as above) to transfer the spell to memory. A spell successfully transferred from a spellbook does nothing to the book, but a spell transferred from a scroll causes the writing for that spell to disappear from the parchment. Upon successfully transferring the spell, the bard or sorceror immediately loses the capability to cast whichever spell he/she chooses of the same level as the new spell that he/she already knows. There are no additional material costs since loosing the spell is a sufficient opportunity cost.
Would this new aspect of bards/sorcerers be unbalancing? Does it make sense? Should there be an additional cost (xp or gp) for a bard or sorcerer to learn new spells? | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 01/08/2006 11:55 AM |
| | I don't think this method makes sense based on the way that bards/sorcerers know spells. I don't think substitution makes sense for them. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 1:50 PM |
| This takes out the big limit that is put on Bards and Sorceres of having only a few spell. They can swap out spells when they advance in levels, but really only one and not of their highest spell levels. Personally I would stick with what is there and not mess with it.
If you really want to give them the research ability, I would make them go through the same process that wizards go through to research a new spell + an exp cost. That would be 1000 GP + 1 week per spell level.
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 01/08/2006 4:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
They can swap out spells when they advance in levels, but really only one and not of their highest spell levels.
I didn't know about this. This means that, say for example, a sorcerer reaches seventh level and selects whatever new spell(s) he gains access to. He can also switch out a first level spell for another, for example. Like, he no longer finds sleep very useful, so switches it to burning hands? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 4:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
They can swap out spells when they advance in levels, but really only one and not of their highest spell levels.
I didn't know about this. This means that, say for example, a sorcerer reaches seventh level and selects whatever new spell(s) he gains access to. He can also switch out a first level spell for another, for example. Like, he no longer finds sleep very useful, so switches it to burning hands?
Yes... it is for the Bard and the Sorcerer. For sorcerer, it is PHB 3.5, page 54, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph. It is limited and is just for that situation, sleep really isn't usefull for an 8th level sorcerer (they can only switch out one spell every even level and it has to be 2 levels lower than their highest level spell.)
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 01/10/2006 5:02 PM |
| Spell substitution does make sense for bards and sorcerers because it is already a class feature, but extremely limited. What I don't think makes sense is that they can read arcane writing, cast spells from arcane scrolls, their spells still involve the same verbal, somatic, and material components as wizards, but they can't study spells and learn anything from doing it. I'm fine with requiring spell substitution to be a one-for-one with another spell from their "spells known" list (i.e. they must "forget" a previously known spell). But I don't think it makes sense to have all that arcane knowledge but not be able to apply it to learning new magic.
How come a bard/sorcerer can go around and kill monsters to go up a level and suddenly have the knowledge of new spells (and sometimes the ability to replace one old spell), but they can't spend time studying arcane lore or getting tutored by another arcane master and get anything from it?
I like Malin Lug's suggestion of making spell substitution (with a scroll or spellbook containing the desired new spell in hand) similar in time cost as researching a totally new spell for a wizard. Then the gp cost could be replaced with an xp cost since the bard/sorcerer already has a copy of a working spell and isn't burning through materials "experimenting" but is really just spending time and effort studying. It also would make spell substitution unlikely during the course of a typical adventure but could happen between adventures, similar to item creation (which is how current bards and sorcerers supplement their spell choices: buying magic items containing some of the spells they don't know).
I guess another option would be to make a much more severe distinction between Int based magic and Cha based magic. Leave the spell lists as they currently are, but give both bards and sorcerers Eschew materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell as free feats. This is because they don't spend time learning words of power, arcane gestures, or combinations of spell components, but instead cast from strength of personality (not depth of knowledge). This would make bard and sorcerer spells function like spell-like abilities. But then Bards and Sorcerers could not use arcane scrolls since they haven't a clue how to decipher the arcane writing or speak the words of power. I suppose they could still use wands since a command word is easy enough to learn. Note that I don't like this option, but it makes a clearer distinction between Cha-based and Int-based arcane casters. | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
(There's just so much roleplaying to be done with a large skeletal snake!) | |
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 8:00 AM |
| | That's an interesting take on it. I would love to her how it works if you do decide to add something like that to your game. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 9:01 AM |
| | If a bard/sorcerer wants to learn how to use magic like a wizard, then they should take levels in Wizard. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 9:54 AM |
| | There was a recent issue (last 6 months maybe) of Dragon magazine that had magical tokens for Sorcerers to wear. The token was added to a necklace that took the necklace magic item slot (i think) but could have a couple of tokens. Each token contained a spell that the sorcerer would then be able to cast as if he knew the spell (assuming that he was wearing the necklace). Each item is created per Craft Wondrous Item feat and therefore had a cost associated with it (something on the order of 1-3 thousand gp per spell level). I thought the idea rules, and if you like i will grab that issue of the magazine and post more info on it (or the issue number if you subscribe). | | | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 12:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
There was a recent issue (last 6 months maybe) of Dragon magazine that had magical tokens for Sorcerers to wear. The token was added to a necklace that took the necklace magic item slot (i think) but could have a couple of tokens. Each token contained a spell that the sorcerer would then be able to cast as if he knew the spell (assuming that he was wearing the necklace). Each item is created per Craft Wondrous Item feat and therefore had a cost associated with it (something on the order of 1-3 thousand gp per spell level). I thought the idea rules, and if you like i will grab that issue of the magazine and post more info on it (or the issue number if you subscribe).
I will have to read the article (I do have a subscription to Dragon) but I have a fundamental question about the tokens. How could a sorcerer make one if he didn't have the spell? And if he did have the spell, why would he make one? It would have to be one of those items that two sorcerers would make for each other. This is a cool item, but I could never see it as very common.
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Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 12:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
quote:
Originally posted by jai
There was a recent issue (last 6 months maybe) of Dragon magazine that had magical tokens for Sorcerers to wear. The token was added to a necklace that took the necklace magic item slot (i think) but could have a couple of tokens. Each token contained a spell that the sorcerer would then be able to cast as if he knew the spell (assuming that he was wearing the necklace). Each item is created per Craft Wondrous Item feat and therefore had a cost associated with it (something on the order of 1-3 thousand gp per spell level). I thought the idea rules, and if you like i will grab that issue of the magazine and post more info on it (or the issue number if you subscribe).
I will have to read the article (I do have a subscription to Dragon) but I have a fundamental question about the tokens. How could a sorcerer make one if he didn't have the spell? And if he did have the spell, why would he make one? It would have to be one of those items that two sorcerers would make for each other. This is a cool item, but I could never see it as very common.
I think it would be a "you scratch my back" type scenario, but to be honest, i don't think it said a sorcerer had to make it. So maybe your Wizard friend wouldn't mind pounding out a token of Feather Fall for you ... [)] | | | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 1:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
quote:
Originally posted by jai
There was a recent issue (last 6 months maybe) of Dragon magazine that had magical tokens for Sorcerers to wear. The token was added to a necklace that took the necklace magic item slot (i think) but could have a couple of tokens. Each token contained a spell that the sorcerer would then be able to cast as if he knew the spell (assuming that he was wearing the necklace). Each item is created per Craft Wondrous Item feat and therefore had a cost associated with it (something on the order of 1-3 thousand gp per spell level). I thought the idea rules, and if you like i will grab that issue of the magazine and post more info on it (or the issue number if you subscribe).
I will have to read the article (I do have a subscription to Dragon) but I have a fundamental question about the tokens. How could a sorcerer make one if he didn't have the spell? And if he did have the spell, why would he make one? It would have to be one of those items that two sorcerers would make for each other. This is a cool item, but I could never see it as very common.
I think it would be a "you scratch my back" type scenario, but to be honest, i don't think it said a sorcerer had to make it. So maybe your Wizard friend wouldn't mind pounding out a token of Feather Fall for you ... [)]
Yeah... but if you needed a feat in order to make these, I couldn't imagine a wizard spending one to get this. But if it is made using Craft Wonderous objects, sure thing.
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Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 1:46 PM |
| | If I am correct I believe you don't have to be the person to cast the spell under magic item creation. So a sorcerer could create one and have a friend cast the spell. Or they could simply comission one from another wizard. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 5:39 PM |
| quote:
If a bard/sorcerer wants to learn how to use magic like a wizard, then they should take levels in Wizard.
My problem is that bards/sorcerers DO use magic just like wizards. Based on my understanding of the rules if a bard or sorcerer stood next to a wizard and were dressed exactly the same, if they both cast the same spell you wouldn't be able to tell who was which class because they would use the same gestures, speak the same words of power, and use the same material components. So why can't a wizard, sorcerer, or bard teach a another bard or sorcerer a new spell (at the expense of "forgetting" a currently known spell)? Having a limited number of spells known and not being able to prepare new spells at the beginning of each day I think is a decent distinction/handicap between sorcerers and wizards. Wizards also learn higher level spells sooner. Bards are handicapped differently anyways do to a totally different (slower) spell progression and limited spell list.
I don't see a good reason why bards/sorcerers can't have a more fluid method for learning new spells (and thereby replacing old ones). Having the process take multiple days and potentially cost gp/xp still limits bard/sorcerer flexibility for any given adventure similar to the current rules. Note the minimum Intelligence required for sorcerers/bards to learn new spells by research in my original post - an additional handicap for mid to high level spells since bards/sorcerers aren't guaranteed to have high Intelligence.
Jai: Thanks for the mention of the special necklace for sorcerers. I don't have a Dragon subscription so feel free to post the stats. From a player's perspective that could really help the flexibility of sorcerers. From a DM's perspective I'm mainly concerned with how magic works in my campaign. I just don't understand why sorcerers and bards would learn arcane writing/speech but not be able to learn the spells that use it except as one-off scroll castings. But then they "magically" know the right words/gestures that a scroll would describe when they go up a level and gain new spells. | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
(There's just so much roleplaying to be done with a large skeletal snake!) | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 01/17/2006 5:06 PM |
| As preparations for my new campaign are finishing up (we'll be starting in a week or so) I'm leaning toward allowing limited Sorcerer and Bard research in my game. I don't think it overpowers these classes and I think it makes better thematic sense. At this point I'm leaning toward 1 day (8 hours) per level of the spell you're studying in order to commit it to memory at the cost of a previously known spell. You must have a copy of the spell on a scroll or in someone's spellbook. At the end of each day you have to make a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + the level of the spell). If you fail on any of the days, you can't commit that spell to memory until you raise your Spellcraft modifier (i.e. go up a level). We'll see how that goes. At this point my initial 4 players aren't even playing a sorcerer or bard, but I expect 2 more to join in the near future.
If bards or sorcerers can scribe scrolls containing spells that a wizard could then cast or copy into a spellbook and prepare, then all the information has to be there on the scroll right? If that's true, there's no reason why bards and sorcerers can't study similar information and learn something from doing so. In other words the bard/sorcerer approach to applying magic is different from a wizard's, but their fundamental understanding of a given spell is the same. | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 01/18/2006 2:54 AM |
| | Our DM plays with the eschew materials feat for Sorcerers, but be careful with the silent and still feats. There's a reason that these cost a lot of spell levels. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 9:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
Our DM plays with the eschew materials feat for Sorcerers, but be careful with the silent and still feats. There's a reason that these cost a lot of spell levels.
There has to be a trade off for the additional power. Giving them Silent spell and still spell would be too over powering. If you just give them eschew materials then the trade off would be that they would have to cast all of their spells as a full round action (it is a metamagic feat and spontaneous casting.)
By giving them the ease of changing out spells, you are taking away the benefit of versatility that the wizard has and everyone would (should) play a sorcerer. Each class has it's advantages. What you might want to do instead is shift to the unearthed arcana spell point system instead. It would be the only way to level out the sorcerer and wizard. | |
"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 9:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
If you just give them eschew materials then the trade off would be that they would have to cast all of their spells as a full round action (it is a metamagic feat and spontaneous casting.)
I was under the impression that Eschew Materials simply meant you need not have materials to cast a spell, i was unaware of the full round action requirement. | | | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 10:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
If you just give them eschew materials then the trade off would be that they would have to cast all of their spells as a full round action (it is a metamagic feat and spontaneous casting.)
I was under the impression that Eschew Materials simply meant you need not have materials to cast a spell, i was unaware of the full round action requirement.
Eschew Materials is not a Metamagic feat, ergo it does not change the casting times for Sorcerers and Bards.
quote:
ESCHEW MATERIALS [GENERAL]
Benefit: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 11:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
If you just give them eschew materials then the trade off would be that they would have to cast all of their spells as a full round action (it is a metamagic feat and spontaneous casting.)
I was under the impression that Eschew Materials simply meant you need not have materials to cast a spell, i was unaware of the full round action requirement.
Eschew Materials is not a Metamagic feat, ergo it does not change the casting times for Sorcerers and Bards.
quote:
ESCHEW MATERIALS [GENERAL]
Benefit: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.
OK... I admit confusing 3.0 with the new 3.5. In 3.0 it was a metamagic feat and that is what we were playing last time I had it. My Bust.[xx(]
But the point being... if you are going to change one core class by taking away it's main disadvantages, what are you going to do to level out the playing field? I am a big fan of balance. Man... I feel like Yoda or something.
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 11:04 PM |
| Ok, the bit about Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell as free feats are not what I'm trying to incorporate. I had mentioned them in exasperation saying that if bards/sorcerers interact with arcane magic in a fundamentally different way from wizards there should be a clearer distinction between Cha-based and Int-based spellcasting. But then if they're that different they shouldn't be able to cast arcane spells from scrolls without a Use Magic Device check like a rogue, since they don't REALLY understand the arcane words of power written on the page.
Instead I was looking for an alternative method to reconcile how bards and sorcerers interact with magic relative to wizards. I was recently reading through Serpent Kingdoms about nagas and came across the fact that they prefer the sorcerer class because it fits with their philosophy of magic coming naturally. But then in the same chapter they describe the naga's search for knowledge and inherent curiosity. Furthermore various nagas over time have developed a wide variety of spells to have at their disposal. Somehow that seems incongruous with taking levels in sorcerer since "learning new magic" by study and experimentation is currently not a class feature.
What I'm trying to do does NOT increase the total number of "spells known" for a bard/sorcerer. Furthermore it is my intention that the typical adventuring bard/sorcerer would NOT be switching out spells during an adventure. However, he/she very well might have a good reason to hold onto a new scroll he/she found during the adventure in order to study it at some length after the adventure in order to swap out a previously known spell of the same level for the new spell. Over the lifetime of the bard/sorcerer this does add flexibility (and increases their appeal to players) but I don't think it tips the "balance" of power very much relative to a wizard. I certainly could be wrong. But I do like how such a rule would allow for bards/sorcerers to pursue magical knowledge over the course of their career and tailor their abilities to their experience in a more fluid way than the current rules. | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
(There's just so much roleplaying to be done with a large skeletal snake!) | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 01/23/2006 7:52 PM |
| Ok, I feel your pain on this one. Not sure if this helps but, here are some sorc/bard tweaks from our gametable. ONE:Sorcerers do not use magic in any way similar to wizards. The only commonality is that the spells are arcane. All sorc characters get eschew materials at lvl. 1, bards get it too but sub. in the requirement of some type of performance to cast.When they cast, the words are different and so are the gestures.This makes the casting of these spells highly stylized and imposes a penalty if there is an attempt to counterspell.TWO: The Cha.-based casters do get to research new spells ie.study. It is done before the new spells for lvl.advancement are learned (this is more of a role play issue than a game mechanic). If the player wants they can CREATE new spells during the research period, if the DM allows it the new spell goes in the arsenal.This can be done between levels for a swap effect. It incurs an exp. cost of 1000*lvl. of spell. The prohibition of 2/3 levels lower than highest spell slot is still imposed.The swap rules at time of level advancement are still in play and have no exp. pt. cost.THREE: Sorcerers (not bards) can alter spells somewhat when they learn them. There is always a trade off. For instance; a Swift Magic Missle has a maximum range of 30 ft.Levitation allows for forward movement at a speed of 20 ft. per round but it has a casting time of 2 full round actions.Rope Trick can be used sideways(like a door)or with a staff instead of a rope. No casting difference but no staff, no trick.Be careful with this, no mods to damage or area effect unless its a penalty. FOUR: All Sorcerers need a focus to cast spells. A wand, staff, mace, pretty stone or Dad's pocket watch all have been used. The character can only have one at a time and if it gets lost it takes 24 hours to attune a new one. Untill the new one is attuned, no spells (think old school situations like Dungeon of the Slavelords). By deffinition bards need some type of performance to cast a spell so that is the focus for the class.FIVE: Sorcerers get Use Magic Device as a class skill(currently we're using an automatic 1 pt. per class lvl. for this but it might be a little much at higher levels)and they have to use it on a device that employs any spell they don't use personally, including an un altered spell version if the one the sorc. uses is altered. We've found that the Sorcerer class is better served by distuingishing it from the Wizard, than making it into a limited wizard savant.As a final note we still use the old training/tutor rules from the AD&D game (albeit modified). But the Sorc. only needs training at levels where a Feat is gained. This is where the intuitiveness of the class really pays off.Whatever you do goodluck and have fun. | |
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