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Originally posted by PatEllis15

As an aside:

I understand why the buff spells were tweaked back a bit. But does anyone else thinkg that they got slash a bit TOO much?! As I recall the intent was to make sure that SpellCasters didn't wake up superbuff, the party (for the day basically), and then head into the pit.

If the spells became 30 minutes, or 20 minutes per level, they'd at least see some regular use. I find that with 1 minute per level, the only time they get used is when the Characters retreat from a tough encounter, and they specifically buff up to go back in.

Pat E

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Originally posted by Malin Lug
Speaking from a player perspective, the buffs getting scaled back really sucks. From a realistic point of view though, a medium to high level party could cast the spells right before going in and it would last the entire adventure. Round by round, if you stay in combat movement and your party keeps moving, most dungeons will only last 30 - 50 minutes. After that most parties are going to be spent on spells and HP's and need rest. This last adventure, the spells that lasted one minute per level lasted from the first encounter on the outside of the stronghold until the last fight in the heart. Even a couple of one round per level spells lasted more than one fight. (We just kept moving and didn't have time to sit down to take it easy.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by PatEllis15

As an aside:

I understand why the buff spells were tweaked back a bit. But does anyone else thinkg that they got slash a bit TOO much?! As I recall the intent was to make sure that SpellCasters didn't wake up superbuff, the party (for the day basically), and then head into the pit.

If the spells became 30 minutes, or 20 minutes per level, they'd at least see some regular use. I find that with 1 minute per level, the only time they get used is when the Characters retreat from a tough encounter, and they specifically buff up to go back in.

Pat E

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

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Originally posted by Malin Lug
Speaking from a player perspective, the buffs getting scaled back really sucks. From a realistic point of view though, a medium to high level party could cast the spells right before going in and it would last the entire adventure. Round by round, if you stay in combat movement and your party keeps moving, most dungeons will only last 30 - 50 minutes. After that most parties are going to be spent on spells and HP's and need rest. This last adventure, the spells that lasted one minute per level lasted from the first encounter on the outside of the stronghold until the last fight in the heart. Even a couple of one round per level spells lasted more than one fight. (We just kept moving and didn't have time to sit down to take it easy.)

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Wow, that is very different from the way my players approach a dungeon. I do what I can to keep things moving, but they always want to go as slowly as they possibly can. They take every opportunity they have to rest (Rope Trick) and try to explore every corner of the dungeon possible.

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Originally posted by Malin Lug
We were in on an adventure that had a very real time contraint. Plus our GM runs a living dungeon... everything changes as you go along. If we camp out and rest... things just get harder and harder, plus any prisoners or hostages will just get executed. We have invested alot of group funds into wands of healing, 3 wands of cure light wounds plus we have spent money recharging our wands of cure mod and cure serious. We have the ability to hammer on and on after most parties would have collapsed by the wayside.

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

Ok, that makes some sense to me. I try to use similar plot elements to keep things moving, but my players love to drag their feet. One of my players is a doctor (MD) in RL- he's incredibly anal and detail oriented in everything he does, especially gaming. He tends to be the party leader and he'll take every opportunity he can to slow down the action (even if it means more hostiges get axed). Sigh...

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Ok, that makes some sense to me. I try to use similar plot elements to keep things moving, but my players love to drag their feet. One of my players is a doctor (MD) in RL- he's incredibly anal and detail oriented in everything he does, especially gaming. He tends to be the party leader and he'll take every opportunity he can to slow down the action (even if it means more hostiges get axed). Sigh...

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Originally posted by Monsoon28

quote:

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Originally posted by PatEllis15

As an aside:

I understand why the buff spells were tweaked back a bit. But does anyone else thinkg that they got slash a bit TOO much?! As I recall the intent was to make sure that SpellCasters didn't wake up superbuff, the party (for the day basically), and then head into the pit.

If the spells became 30 minutes, or 20 minutes per level, they'd at least see some regular use. I find that with 1 minute per level, the only time they get used is when the Characters retreat from a tough encounter, and they specifically buff up to go back in.

Pat E

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I agree that they were modified too heavily, I thought a 10min/lvl would have be a better choice for most spells.

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Originally posted by IanB

1 min/level is a good change, I think. It makes it more useful than a 1 rd/level spell in a running fight. At 1 hr/level they were pretty much a default cast-on-everyone-all-the-time option, which was boring and a bit disruptive to encounter balance. 10 minutes/level is functionally the same as 1 hr/level in most games.

Now in 3.5 the load of carrying enhancement bonuses is put off primarily onto items, so characters have to bear the costs of their own stat buffs (in gold and item slots), and choose only those buffs that are most important to them with the limited resources available to them. The stat buffs instead become short term combat buffs for stats you haven't been able to afford to get an item for yet.

Game balance improved with the change.

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

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Originally posted by IanB

1 min/level is a good change, I think. It makes it more useful than a 1 rd/level spell in a running fight. At 1 hr/level they were pretty much a default cast-on-everyone-all-the-time option, which was boring and a bit disruptive to encounter balance. 10 minutes/level is functionally the same as 1 hr/level in most games.

Now in 3.5 the load of carrying enhancement bonuses is put off primarily onto items, so characters have to bear the costs of their own stat buffs (in gold and item slots), and choose only those buffs that are most important to them with the limited resources available to them. The stat buffs instead become short term combat buffs for stats you haven't been able to afford to get an item for yet.

Game balance improved with the change.

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I agree with this. Some of my players hung out on the WotC Character Optimization boards pre-D&D3.5 when every build utilized these buffs with Extend and Empower (didn't they give a 1d4+1 enhancement instead of the flat bonus today?).

By combining Extended, Empowered Buffs with Persistant Spell (Divine Favor, Divine Power, etc.), Greater Magic Weapon, etc. clerics were now the best archers and melee fighters not to mention healers and blasters. No one was bothering with the slotted stat enhancement items. It was boring and by mid-level it made clerics the best class hands down.

I ended up houseruling Persistent Spell out of the game. I'm glad WotC nerfed a lot of these problems, my game has definitely improved as a result.

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Originally posted by orcdoubleax

I had the Extended+Empowered+Persistant Spell problem. It really shot the game all to hell. One player was far more dangerous then the rest of the party.

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Originally posted by Ghendar
Well LM, I guess I don't game with enough power gamers because the 3.0 buff spells never resulted in an unbalanced game. Interesting.

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Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned

Just vote for Duceppe then, orc ;)

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

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Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned

Just vote for Duceppe then, orc ;)

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