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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
    
 | | 01/13/2006 8:12 PM |
| I was reading through White Plume Mountain today and discovered that Blackrazor uses the new rules from weapons of legacy. Basically, the sword gives you the following abilities and drawbacks:
1) Scales to become a +5 vicious greatsword.
2) -3 attack penalty.
3) -4 Fortitude save penalty.
4) You lose 10 hitpoints.
5) Blackrazor has an ego, and can fight to prevent you from using its abilities. The sword's ego increases from insignificant at low levels to extremely stubborn (ego 21) at high levels.
6) +5 bonus to mind affecting saving throws.
7) You can detect living creatures.
8) You can apply the deathknell spell to living creatures you kill, but gain a negative level for each undead creature you kill.
9) Starting at 16th level, you may be hasted up to 10 rounds per day.
10) You spend 44,500 gp on rituals.
None of the legacy items have really appealed to me at all. I seem to recall that Blackrazor was assuredly cool in 2E, but I think I would rather just leave the 3E incarnation in a ditch rather than use the accursed thing.
Am I wrong, and is there something that I am missing? Are the legacy items really worth using? | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Stabmastaarson
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 01/13/2006 8:19 PM |
| I would say yes. I don't know what the 2E stats are (I never played 2E, I played 1st ED and now 3.5). I found Legacy Weapons to be well worth it in the long run, not to metion they can become an integral part of an ongoing campaign. I'm including the concept in the Eberron home game I'm starting up.
The weapon has drawbacks, but for a wielder who likes the abilities and the feel of the weapon, I'd say go for it.
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 01/13/2006 8:24 PM |
| I think they can be cool, if you incorporate them well. Sadly, I think the design rules in the back of the book are both the best part and sadly lacking. They don't give really good guidelines on how to balance abilities, and the abilities they suggest are pretty generic. In general, I thought the concept was cool, but the execution wasn't up to snuff in the book.
The other problem I have with them is that I'm running an Eberron campaign, and the Artificer in my party can create things that are just as cool.
The place they really shine, however, is in a low-money campaign. It's a good way to get advanced weapons to the players without allowing them to cash out their old stuff and generate a lot of spare cash and items the don't really fit in in your economy.
So, yeah. I have mixed feelings. They are decent, but I really had to do a lot of extrapolation to get something interesting. YMMV | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 01/13/2006 9:02 PM |
| I guess I should have explained why I wouldn't want the sword. It's not that it's useless, it's just that I'd much rather have a comparable non-legacy sword. That is, I think Blackrazor is way worse than a regular +4 sword. And in that case, why should a player want it unless the DM forces it on them and won't give them access to a regular magic weapon?
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It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/13/2006 9:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
I guess I should have explained why I wouldn't want the sword. It's not that it's useless, it's just that I'd much rather have a comparable non-legacy sword. That is, I think Blackrazor is way worse than a regular +4 sword. And in that case, why should a player want it unless the DM forces it on them and won't give them access to a regular magic weapon?
Because it's both powerful and extremely cheap. If you put flavor and role-playing considerations aside, a +5 viscous greatsword would cost you 72,000gp + all the cost of all those additional abilities. With blackrazor your paying ~40K + some minor penalties. That's not great, but it's not bad at all either. If you crunch the numbers for some of the other legacy weapons, they end up far cheaper than their regular counterparts. That extra money can go to beefing your character up with additional abilities.
I really like the flavor of Legacy Items and I'm glad we now have a mechanic to include them in the game. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/14/2006 1:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Because it's both powerful and extremely cheap. If you put flavor and role-playing considerations aside, a +5 viscous greatsword would cost you 72,000gp + all the cost of all those additional abilities. With blackrazor your paying ~40K + some minor penalties. That's not great, but it's not bad at all either. If you crunch the numbers for some of the other legacy weapons, they end up far cheaper than their regular counterparts. That extra money can go to beefing your character up with additional abilities.
I really like the flavor of Legacy Items and I'm glad we now have a mechanic to include them in the game.
I have to agree with that statement for the most part.
I'd feel the items were worth it; but the problem is in todays 3.5 environment where the + of your weapon no longer determines whether or not it can go through DR, what's the point of having a +5 weapon but you take a -3 hit on ALL your attack rolls even those made by other weapons? And on top of it you suffer numberous other curse effects!
Another issue (which can be fit into the adventure) are the quests to awaken your Legacy item. Potentially a whole lot of hassle that might make some people prefer to just sell the bloody things and pay the extra cost for a weapon that doesn't give so many drawbacks to it's owner.
What I love about the book are the concepts, if your the DM rule 0 applies. Change it around a bit, figure out how to make the items more appealing to your players without them hating the costs involved.
As I see it are these Weapons of Legacy or Cursed Weapons?!?
No one wants to feel that what they have is the latter of the two. | |
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Red Ranger
Sergeant
708 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 9:43 AM |
| | Although my players don't know it yet I've introduced some self-made Legacy Items into my Age of Worms campaign and my homebrew Arcana Evolved campaign. I think the key is that not all the penalties are as bad as those found on Blackrazor from White Plume Mountian. The best thing about Weapons of Legacy is the creation guidelines at the back of the book. Even though the abilities given in the guidelines are rather general, they give a good idea of the relative power level of abilities you should include at certain levels of the weapon or item. Legacy items definitely add flavor to your campaign world when used effectively. If you don't like the penalties, reduce or eliminate them in favor of more difficult or more expensive legacy rituals. On a side note, I think that Weapons of Legacy should have almost been a supplement for AE, with it's focus on cermony and ritual unlocking the power within. | |
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| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 01/14/2006 10:42 AM |
| I've looked over the book but I have no plans to buy. Just not something that I need to have. Much like the DMG2 and Unearthed Arcana.
If I have the op to get it at a much reduced price I may pick it up.
It certainly has some interesting stuff but again, not something I need to have. | |
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| *censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 11:13 AM |
| there was a bit of a discussion about this here:
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4305
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/14/2006 11:33 AM |
| | Amazon users have it listed as 1 out of 5 stars... | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 11:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
Amazon users have it listed as 1 out of 5 stars...
Really? I'm getting 3.5 out of 5 stars...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786936886/sr=1-1/qid=1137257175/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-7381647-0410512?%5Fencoding=UTF8 | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/14/2006 12:34 PM |
| | *Amazon.ca*...Sorry, I am a Canadian :( | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 1:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
*Amazon.ca*...Sorry, I am a Canadian :(
Ok, I understand now. Thanks. | |
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| *censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 1:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
...Sorry, I am a Canadian :(
There is absolutely no need to apologize for that [)] [:p] [:o)] | |
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| The Great
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Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 01/14/2006 2:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
*Amazon.ca*...Sorry, I am a Canadian :(
Hey, Rush is from Canada, so it's okay. [:D] | |
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I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 2:32 PM |
| [edited: I got a few of the penalties wrong]
I also have a little trouble with giving a Warrior a +5 weapon that confirs a-3 to skill checks and a penalty of 20 hp. That seems pretty harsh, but for some of these weapons it really is worth it.
Look at Crimson Ruination which advances to the equiv of a +7 sword with some really nice powers.
At 20th level I calculate the sword to be worth at least 98,320 (equiv of a +7 sword) + 4,000 (protect from evil) + 8,000 (deflect bonus) + 4,000 (endure elements) + ??? (bonus language) + 56,000 (energy resistance 20 unslotted) + 50,000 (evasion unslotted) + 115,200 (8th level spell 2/day). Plus all these powers are multiple different abilities which do not take up space on the body adding ~50% to the price. Even if I'm off on some of these numbers, the weapon is virtually priceless.
You get all that for a cost of 20 hp, -3 to skill checks and ~54,000gp. IMO that's a great deal. The weapon has a cool history as well.
Legacy staff of power is similar. Plus it doesn't use charges so you can use it forever. Non-legacy staff of power: 211,000 gp. Legacy staff of power: 60,500 gp + -2 to saves, -2 caster level, and loss of 1 high level spell slot. Again, that's a great deal. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/14/2006 7:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
You get all that for a cost of some hp, -3 to attack and ~54,000gp. IMO that's a great deal. The weapon has a cool history as well.
Your right one of the more resonably priced items available, but to be honest, it isn't some hp, it's a total of 20hp equal to two maxed out level of fighter (not incl Con bonus'.) But this is one of those items where the cost doesn't completely over-shadow the benefits, unlike so many many other examples.
And to be fair 'equivalent' isn't 'equal to', it's a +4 weapon that gets better against dragons. So your still suffering a -3 to ALL attack modifiers for a plus +4 weapon. So you can still ask yourself, 'Is it really worth it for those rare occasions when I actually fight dragons?' In most campaigns probably not.
For me Rule0 would have to apply and the negative cost to attack would only apply to this weapon. That way you wouldn't get totally hosed if you'd rather use your Undead bane Mace against the horde of vampire spawn rushing you.
quote:
Legacy staff of power is similar. Plus it doesn't use charges so you can use it forever. Non-legacy staff of power: 211,000 gp. Legacy staff of power: 60,500 gp + -2 to saves, -2 caster level, and loss of 1 high level spell slot. Again, that's a great deal.
This is a better example, the staff instills a luck bonus that cancels out the save penalty from the staff, a -2 to attack is more significant but really how often do wizards fight in melee? (of course since the penalty is to all attacks this would include ranged touch attacks from spells.) The loss of one 8th lvl slot is totally made up for but the spells gained. An Item totally worth getting!
@Sir Bozak The Damned: Don't you dare appologize for being Canadian! Let the americans do the appologizing! [:P]
j/k!
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 7:36 PM |
| I actually misread the crimson ruination entry- it's a -3 to skill checks not attack rolls. That's a tremendously significant difference for a warrior build. I'll change my previous post to reflect that.
quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon28
Your right one of the more resonably priced items available, but to be honest, it isn't some hp, it's a total of 20hp equal to two maxed out level of fighter (not incl Con bonus'.) But this is one of those items where the cost doesn't completely over-shadow the benefits, unlike so many many other examples.
Point taken. I didn't actually add up the total hp cost and you are correct: 20hp is a significant sacrifice. However, this is offset by the weapon having no BAB penalty.
quote:
And to be fair 'equivalent' isn't 'equal to', it's a +4 weapon that gets better against dragons. So your still suffering a -3 to ALL attack modifiers for a plus +4 weapon. So you can still ask yourself, 'Is it really worth it for those rare occasions when I actually fight dragons?' In most campaigns probably not.
Well, at high levels, it's a +4 keen, frost, dragonbane greatsword. The keen and frost bonuses apply all the time, not just when you're fighting dragons.
Again, with this particular weapon it's a -3 to skill checks, not to attack rolls so aside from hp, your fighter isn't going to mind the sacrifice.
quote:
For me Rule0 would have to apply and the negative cost to attack would only apply to this weapon. That way you wouldn't get totally hosed if you'd rather use your Undead bane Mace against the horde of vampire spawn rushing you.
I like this idea.
quote:
This is a better example, the staff instills a luck bonus that cancels out the save penalty from the staff, a -2 to attack is more significant but really how often do wizards fight in melee? (of course since the penalty is to all attacks this would include ranged touch attacks from spells.) The loss of one 8th lvl slot is totally made up for but the spells gained. An Item totally worth getting!
Note that's a -2 Caster Level not Attack Rolls so it does hurt the caster some. In any case I still think this item is totally worth it.
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/14/2006 10:37 PM |
| quote:
I actually misread the crimson ruination entry- it's a -3 to skill checks not attack rolls. That's a tremendously significant difference for a warrior build. I'll change my previous post to reflect that.
Doh, you and I both misread that one, for shame! [V]
quote:
Well, at high levels, it's a +4 keen, frost, dragonbane greatsword. The keen and frost bonuses apply all the time, not just when you're fighting dragons.
Well as you see from our mistake, no longer really matters in this weapon's case.
quote:
I like this idea.
Glad to be an inspiration. [:D]
As for the Staff not sure maybe I read the Legacy Holy Avenger and mixed that in with the staff but a hit on Caster Level is more serious to a Wizard then a hit on their attack bonus.
But your right (I know, I know will wonders never cease? [:P]) still totally worth it, though you'd definitely have to take Spell Penetration to offset the caster level effects. | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 1:56 AM |
| Well, in the cases of Whelm, Wave and Black Razor I'd rather expect that the bonuses might not make up for their faults. Those three are supposed to be collectors items, and not necessarily used by the average adventurer.
I'm not sure why they were statted the way they were. I mean, there are 3 slots consumed by Blackrazor's Intelligent Legacy! There should have been a better way to advance this mechanic. As it stands now, once you unlock Intelligent Legacy, Major you have an unused Table "A" power and an unused Table "C" power, and a new ones should be provided (perhaps Halt Undead and Darkness, Self). That would go a decent way to making them a little more acceptable.
But I just checked WPM again--and if you're not using the WoL Book, it suggests to use the three as +1 items with excellent histories! What?!
No, I don't think I approve of the way Blackrazor was statted. There are stats available for all three in the Arms & Equipment book, though. Somebody pointed me in that direction several months ago. I don't remember much about them, and A&E is not on my list of books to acquire, but would someone who has A&E be so kind as to see how the 3.x versions stack up compared to WPM 3.5? | |
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| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 2:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Legacy staff of power is similar. Plus it doesn't use charges so you can use it forever. Non-legacy staff of power: 211,000 gp. Legacy staff of power: 60,500 gp + -2 to saves, -2 caster level, and loss of 1 high level spell slot. Again, that's a great deal.
I'm not a huge fan of Legacy Weapons. Although, I haven't torn through the book in depth (I don't own it), so I'm going off of my flipping through it at a book store.
As for the caster level -2, that problem should be able to be offset by the "Practiced Spellcaster" feat. [)] | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 01/15/2006 4:20 AM |
| Blackrazor as a legacy weapon is pretty close in its abilities to its A&EG version, but the "Death Knell" ability is not evocative of its original power in 1e.
###
I've four items of legacy in my Age of Worms game (holy avenger, and three DM-created). I had one item of legacy in my Necropolis game, and there'll be a few in my Ulek campaign once the PCs reach the appropriate levels.
I think the mechanics are pretty solid, although some of the pre-gen weapons are weak.
Cheers!
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Merric Blackman
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/15/2006 7:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by A Can of the Cave Beer
No, I don't think I approve of the way Blackrazor was statted. There are stats available for all three in the Arms & Equipment book, though. Somebody pointed me in that direction several months ago. I don't remember much about them, and A&E is not on my list of books to acquire, but would someone who has A&E be so kind as to see how the 3.x versions stack up compared to WPM 3.5?
+3 Greatsword, Haste (CL10) 1/day, wielder immune to mind-affecting spells, speaks and reads Common, Abyssal, Draconic & Giant. A death knell effect occurs when victim is taken between -1 and -10hp (DC15) failure provides bonus' to the wielder. If the sword isn't fed, it's ego score increases by 1 a day. Negative effects for using it against undead: providing temp HP to the undead and bestowing a neg level to the wielder; if the wielder gets as many neg levels as they have HD, they are affected by death knell as well; DC17 to remove neg levels.
Every two living creatures killed will also remove 1 neg level.
There it is in a nut shell I've left some of it's info out but that's the weapon in a nutshell.
DTad: Good Idea, I was thinking though, that Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't work in this situation. | |
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salmander
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 1:34 PM |
| The penalties are not as bad as you think. For example, if at 11th level you suffer a -2 to hit, once you reach 12th level you no longer have that -2 penalty. The penalties are not cumulative, nor are they permanent. They are level based.
I didn't like the legacy weapons when I first read about them, but when I realized the penalties were temporary, I decided to use them in my game.
All of the player will eventually find one. It really adds to the character to have a named weapon that has a story of its own. One character got his at first level from his father, but he had no idea of its power. Until 5th level and before discovered more of its history, it was just a +1 weapon. This way the weapon grows in power at the same level as the character. They become very attached to them, which is nice, when it gets taken from them later on. [}:)] | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/15/2006 2:00 PM |
| Basically, I don't think the book is worth it. I've had 'weapons of leagacy' in my campaigns for 15 years, and I never needed annoying rules like these to make them work.
In the mid to late 80s, when I was in high school, I added a sword to my campaign that appeared to be a +1 longsword upon first inspection, although it had a very distinctive pommel. The PCs later learned that the weapon was a legendary sword that was thought to have been lose in the bottom of the sea. They also discovered that by slaying certain creatures, the weapon could unlock new abilities ... They found it at a low level. By the time the campaign ended, this +1 longsword had become a +5 ThacO /+10 damage vorpal and flaming weapon that could cast a variety of spells during combat. This was, basically, a very simplified weapon of legacy.
The Weapons of Legacy over overly complicated. Why impose a penalty on the PC? Just to force them into being a one trick pony that can only use that weapon?
Why have vague rituals that cost money? Why not just reduce the amount of treasure found? Or, if you like the rituals, why don't you flesh them out so that they make sense ...
In my mind, if you want to use the concept of a weapon of legacy, doing the following will get the job done fine.
1) Design a basic magic weapon.
2) Figure out 3 or 4 improvements on the weapons and figure out when it'd be appropriate for the PCs to gain those improvements.
3) Figure out challenges that could be done at those levels to unlock those improvements.
4) Decrease the treasure the PCs might find while beating those challenges a bit to account for the value of the increase in the weapon's abilities.
5) Enjoy saving $35.00. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/15/2006 2:04 PM |
| salmander: I think you might want to reread about renouncing legacy weapons and the penalties they incur again.
These penalties are permanent unless you renouce the weapon, and they are cumulative or replaced by the new numbers indicated, if there is no number indicated you don't suffer a penalty at that level but you still retain all those gained prior to that level. | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 4:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by salmander
The penalties are not as bad as you think. For example, if at 11th level you suffer a -2 to hit, once you reach 12th level you no longer have that -2 penalty. The penalties are not cumulative, nor are they permanent. They are level based.
Are you certain of that? It was my impression from talking to a friend who has the book that they were permanent, and that if the weapon were sundered you were effectively SOL, as you would not only lose the weapon but still retain a lot of nasty penalties. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 6:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
quote:
Originally posted by salmander
The penalties are not as bad as you think. For example, if at 11th level you suffer a -2 to hit, once you reach 12th level you no longer have that -2 penalty. The penalties are not cumulative, nor are they permanent. They are level based.
Are you certain of that? It was my impression from talking to a friend who has the book that they were permanent, and that if the weapon were sundered you were effectively SOL, as you would not only lose the weapon but still retain a lot of nasty penalties.
The penalty does stay as long as you continue to have the weapon. However, if you lose the weapon (or just lose interest in it) you can go through a ritual to make the penalties go away (thereby forgoing your legacy feats and severing your ties with the weapon).
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Have: Cat; Want: Storm Giant
Champion of Anything Dragonlance
Before trading, please check the Disputed Trades Thread | |
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salmander
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 7:17 PM |
| | I had a freind who said that is how the penalties work. I guess I was mis-informed. It just doesn't seem worth it then. | |
Beware the Were-Lady bug (Hybrid Form)!
Champion of Aspect of Vecna Champion of Succubus-VINDICATED
Successful trades: Gausse, Count Dooku, Aussie Jim, ehren37, jedijon,CrescentHawk,djtool,callidusx3,rtcmc
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 8:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
The penalty does stay as long as you continue to have the weapon. However, if you loose the weapon (or just loose interest in it) you can go through a ritual to make the penalties go away (thereby forgoing your legacy feats and severing your ties with the weapon).
That is much better then. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 12:53 PM |
| Another question to ask is:
Should the weapons in White Plume Mountain be a good PC choice? They are, after all, sent to recover them for the actual owner. With a lot of players it might help the game go more smoothly if they aren't tempted to steal them. [:p] | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/16/2006 2:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Another question to ask is:
Should the weapons in White Plume Mountain be a good PC choice? They are, after all, sent to recover them for the actual owner. With a lot of players it might help the game go more smoothly if they aren't tempted to steal them. [:p]
Hey, when I went through the original White Plume Mountain, my chaotic evil elven fighter thief returned Blackrazor to its original owner ... when he pried it from my cold, dead fingers. That seemed to go pretty smoothly ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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