| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
    
United States
 | | 01/14/2006 10:54 AM |
| So, suppose you've played an arcane caster who has used mirror image loads of times. Suppose this same caster has also cast major image loads of times. (The whole "loads of times" thing is just there to try justifying this to a DM.)
A combat is about ready to begin, and you have no interest in being up there getting smashed, so you stay back like usual. Your party is fighting things that wouldn't know the first thing about the target of amirror image spell, so, you cast major image and create the illusion of one of the fighters in your party having, in effect, mirror images of himself.
Better yet, switch gears now and say you're the DM of some players who are trying to pull this off. You're DMing some group of critters, and now they see a fighter surrounded by a corona of mirror image duplicates. Do you treat this fighter as if he's the subject of a mirror image spell and go from there (I mean, so long as the wizard maintains the major image spell), or do you adjudicate in some other way?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 11:20 AM |
| | Since Major image is higher level, I would allow them to "waste" it and turn it into a mirror image spell. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 01/14/2006 12:01 PM |
| | Well as long as the mage maintains the spell, it could work kind of like like mirror image, yes. Thing is though that as soon as a member of the party realizes that any of the images isn't real, they're free to ignore all of them, as per the rules on figments. (PHB 173-174) Hmm, I don't know quite why this rule doesn't apply to mirror image though. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/14/2006 12:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
Hmm, I don't know quite why this rule doesn't apply to mirror image though.
Although there are certainly different opinions, some DMs argue that the rule does apply.
To those DMs, you treat the spell exactly like any other spell that creates multiple figments. You get a saving throw versus figments like mirror images when you study them or interact with them.
If a target stands and uses a standard action to study the images, he or she will get a saving throw to disbelieve an image, turning one extra image into a transparent outline (in his or her perception). However, as the spell specifies that it summons multiple figments, and each disbelief attempt only works on one illusion, you need to disbelieve each image separately.
As for interacting with the image to get a save to make them a transparent outline, the normal form of interaction (attacking one) usually destroys the figment. Accordingly, using an interaction to interact with the image to get a save is often a waste. However, a clever PC might be able to set up a situation where they can interact with multiple images at the same time in one action, but splitting their focus amongst multiple images may be tricky.
Also remember that mirror images can be cleaved, and that the images' ACs do not benefit from the defensive spells of the caster (see the FAQ).
There is one section of the rules that creates a contradiction. If the images are 'attacked' they are destroyed. The rules are clear elsewhere (such as under charm) that being hit with an area of effect spell such as fireball will constitute an attack, which should destroy the image. However, the MI spell specifices that the image will remain and look destroyed or burned by a fireball. Accordingly, the DM will have to figure out how to handle that issue.
Allowing a major image spell to operate similar to a mirror image spell would be an inventive use of the spell, so I can certainly see room for a DM to allow or disallow the usage. However, if allowed, remember that it creates one image, not many. So there would be a 50-50 chance of it being the creature hit. Further, that image should remain for 3 rds + concentration. Additionally, the image can only be moved while you are concentrating, so in the 3 rds after you end concentration and the spell is still in effect, the image stops moving. As one more point, the image will either not be moving or will be poorly simultaneously mimicing the fighter (unless you use some form of divination to know what the fighter will be doing), so the target may get an immediate save to disbelieve as the idea of two images simultaneously moving in something close to in sync actions is a bit odd, and a static image next to a mobile fighter is not too confusing. The image can be 'disbelieved' as normal for a figment. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/14/2006 7:58 PM |
| | Well I'd just point out that it's a single image that once hit would disappear. There would be no 'corona of mirror images' just a single one. So if the wizard wants to spend a 3rd level spell and then concentrate on it for a single 'mirror image' let them. But I'd say it's was a waste of time and resources. | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
| |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 01/15/2006 10:46 AM |
| So, what about an alternative? Major image's description includes: "The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately."
So, you use it to create in image of the fighter that's up on the front line. As far as I know, there aren't any rules prohibiting a figment from occupying the same space as a real creature, so you create it as a double, right in the same place. With some luck, the opponent cannot tell which is which. If the opponent attacks the image (which is kinda what you're after, effectively siphoning attacks off the fighter), then the wizard has to maintain a realistic looking response to the attack. Of course, the wizard won't want the image to get "killed" by the attack, and so he'll have to try his best to make it look like the imaginary fighter is fighting just like the real one. (Which, I suppose, will end up being accounted for in a circumstance modifier in the opponent's Will save against the figment.)
If the opponent cannot determine which is the figment, could the fighter gain a flanking bonus if he moved appropriately?
The figment itself cannot cause damage, but if the opponent doesn't know which one is real, he has to take both 'threats' seriously.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/15/2006 11:04 AM |
| I'd say it's possible, but since the reactions are from the Wizard and not inherent in the spell; this is where the Bluff skill would come into play.
So the creatures would make an opposed sense motive to determine whether the reactions were convincing or not. | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
| |
|
Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/15/2006 11:07 AM |
| | Grrrrr, Bloody double post! | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
| |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/15/2006 1:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
... Of course, the wizard won't want the image to get "killed" by the attack, and so he'll have to try his best to make it look like the imaginary fighter is fighting just like the real one. (Which, I suppose, will end up being accounted for in a circumstance modifier in the opponent's Will save against the figment.)...
This would be interaction, allowing a saving throw. As you're seeing two duplicates of the same fighter, I think a DM might want to give a bonus on the save.
Regardless, when there is one other image and it isn't moving through another identical looking creature continuously, it might be better not to think of it as working like a mirror image, and just think of it working as a normal illusion. The enemy sees an extra fighter, and attacks accordingly (until it makes its save).
Some people might wonder how this could apply to mirror image. For those DMs that allow disbelief for the figments of a mirror image spell, it is the actual caster that performs the attacks (not the images), while the other images do mock attacks. Thus, the target of the attack is not interacting with the illusions during the attack, but is interacting with the caster. If someone focuses on an image during this time, they are studying it and get a save. If not, the image may be making an attack at thin air, but nobody is interacting with the image at that time, so there is no saving throw for interaction, either. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 01/15/2006 6:00 PM |
| I agree on that whole "they should get a save" thing. But, I'm kinda counting on the fact that Fighter-types are notorious for failing Will saves.
Does anyone think that, in addition to the opponent getting a bonus, perhaps, for seeing that one of the two "fighters" he's in combat with isn't hitting, that the caster could also get a modifier to the roll for making the image believable?
The Bluff skill has already been suggested, and that's not a bad suggestion (maybe a Bluff v. an opposed Sense Motive; if the wizard wins the DC is +2, if the opponent wins the save is +2). But, what about some other skill? I was thinking Spellcraft, but that's not really fair--it would be cool if there were some other skill: Craft (illusions) sounds a little weird, Knowledge (illusions) is maybe specific enough. Anyway, I'm just shooting for something that might make a particular illusionist stand out (beyond Spell Focus (illusion)). But, I'm probably asking for the moon.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/16/2006 2:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Does anyone think ... that the caster could also get a modifier to the roll for making the image believable?...
Why this illusion, and not any other?
This messes with the balance of the game. The spells are designed to have an appropriate saving throw based upon level and ability of caster. If you start giving bonuses beyond those, the spells become too automatic, and the games devolve into a 'protect the mage while he does everything' scenario.
If you want your caster to be good with illuisions, take spell focus (or greater spell focus), or play a gnome. That is the method by which you get a great illusionist. Adding additional benefits from out of the blue is a sure path to overpowered PCs ...
Trust in the balance of the game. It may not be perfect, but it is pretty darn good. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 3:16 PM |
| I tend to rule narrowly on stuff like this; I wouldn't allow it to function as a mirror image spell. A major image would lack some of the qualities of the mirror image spell, like multiple images, perfect mimicing of actions, etc. The minor image series of spells are not meant to be combat-effective, in my opinion; illusion has a whole other set of spells for covering that sort of usage. It is all too easy to allow illusions to do too much.
If your particular goal in this case as an illusionist is to create a situation where your front-line fighter is getting hit less, just cast displacement on him. It doesn't require concentration and provides an ongoing benefit rather than a single mirror image, doesn't grant a save to your opponents, and is still in the illusion school at the same level as major image. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 01/16/2006 9:00 PM |
| Okay, so, thanks for all the feedback and advice. Now, on to my next (very related) question.
Does anyone have any reason why a wizard couldn't create a potion of mirror image? And, then, a fighter can end up with mirror images by drinking such a potion, right? (As far as I can tell, just because a spell of 3rd level or lower isn't listed in the random potions list in the DMG is no reason why there cannot be such a potion.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/17/2006 2:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
...Does anyone have any reason why a wizard couldn't create a potion of mirror image?...
Yes.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions
You can't make potions with a range of personal. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/17/2006 3:08 PM |
| | If you really, really, really, really want the party fighter to have mirror image on him, the way to do it is via a ring of spell storing. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/17/2006 3:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
If you really, really, really, really want the party fighter to have mirror image on him, the way to do it is via a ring of spell storing.
In addition, the fighter could take a level of wizard/sorcerer or gain ranks in use magic device if he wants to gain the benefit of spells intended for wizards/sorcerers. THis will allow the use of scrolls ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 01/17/2006 4:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
...Does anyone have any reason why a wizard couldn't create a potion of mirror image?...
Yes.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions
You can't make potions with a range of personal.
I figured as much. Stupid rules.
[:)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/17/2006 4:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
...I figured as much. Stupid rules.
[:)]
Dave
Just to insert MHO:
Something that DMs/players need to consider: Why are the rules what they are? Why can't a fighter easily use mirror image? If you give these issues adequate consideration, it may help you avoid making mistakes that can reduce the fun for your entire RPG group.
Building a unique character is fun ... but building one that is unique because it takes advantage of loop-holes in the rules just leads to out of whack and (often) nonsensical PCs. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/17/2006 4:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
If you really, really, really, really want the party fighter to have mirror image on him, the way to do it is via a ring of spell storing.
In addition, the fighter could take a level of wizard/sorcerer or gain ranks in use magic device if he wants to gain the benefit of spells intended for wizards/sorcerers. THis will allow the use of scrolls ...
Or even better, wands, which don't require a spellcraft check to cast when you're exceeding your level. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/17/2006 5:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
If you really, really, really, really want the party fighter to have mirror image on him, the way to do it is via a ring of spell storing.
In addition, the fighter could take a level of wizard/sorcerer or gain ranks in use magic device if he wants to gain the benefit of spells intended for wizards/sorcerers. THis will allow the use of scrolls ...
Or even better, wands, which don't require a spellcraft check to cast when you're exceeding your level.
True. If you can get it in a wand, it is always easier to use (no roll if you have the correct class, DC20 UMD (use magic device) roll if you're using UMD). | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |