orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
    
 | | 01/15/2006 11:20 AM |
| OK, I'm soon gonna be DMing for 2 people, as that's all we can get around here to play [:(]. They will play the following:
Wood Elf Barbarian
Human Paladin
-- Ranger (undecided on race)
One person will play two characters. As I'm DMing, I've voluteered to play a NPC, but, also it being my first time running a game, I need a little help reguarding it. A question:
1) Should I design a NPC as I would a PC?
Thanks
Chris | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 01/15/2006 11:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcmonk220
OK, I'm soon gonna be DMing for 2 people, as that's all we can get around here to play [:(]. They will play the following:
Wood Elf Barbarian
Human Paladin
-- Ranger (undecided on race)
One person will play two characters. As I'm DMing, I've voluteered to play a NPC, but, also it being my first time running a game, I need a little help reguarding it. A question:
1) Should I design a NPC as I would a PC?
Thanks
Chris
If your running a game for the first time I'd be a bit careful about running an NPC. You might want to run the game with 3 PC's to get comfortable with the game, and then decide whether or not an NPC is needed. You could then decide what NPC would best suit the party.
Im would design my NPC with a core character class and give it wealth per the NPC wealth guidelines. | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 11:36 AM |
| Nothing is stopping you from creating your own character and running it in the game. You are the DM and I am sure you can separate the in-game knowledge from the DM knowledge.
I've run a couple of NPCs when I DMed and they have all been pre-generated and they were never as in-depth as a regular PC (they came with the adventure) but I have also ran my own character(s) and I had more fun that way...just don't do things you wouldn't normaly do just because you know what's going to happen.
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 11:40 AM |
| I was thinking he follows the Paladin around, so the paladin kinda has control over what he does.
Thanks | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 11:50 AM |
| | Well, you have a very combat heavy group, with very little healing and no initial spell casters. I would roll up a cleric as if you were goig to play it. You just have to make sure to play a supporting role versus the being the central character. What you really need is actually to get another player or two. A notice at your FLGS could bring better results than you think. | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 12:31 PM |
| | I don;t have a FLGS, unfortunately. The nearest is 2 hours drive - and I can't drive. I have, since this was posted, heard that my friend has convinced a friend to play too. [:)] | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10492 Posts
United States
| | 01/15/2006 12:40 PM |
| "Should I design a NPC as I would a PC?" I would, yes. But, I'd also consider the following.
Given what you've got there, it might be useful to have the fourth character be a wizard or cleric. One advantage is that, since the players are probably going to turn to him for advice from time to time (especially as they're all to aware that the DM is playing him), you can role play the individual as having some authority over them. If it's a cleric, for example, the cleric could be of the paladin's faith, and therefore be his guide. If it's a wizard, he could been seen as having some esoteric knowledge they need (even if he isn't any good in a fight).
Another option is to have the fourth character be some rogue. Someone who gets fights started (it's always nice to have someone with Tumble and Escape Artist in a bar to insult the thug and get things going). As DM, you could use this guy to get the group into trouble and you'd have some control over it.
I realize you didn't ask for any advice on character types, but I wanted to throw that in there as an example of how I'd slightly alter the creation of the character since the DM will be running him.
Dave | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 12:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcmonk220
I have, since this was posted, heard that my friend has convinced a friend to play too. [:)]
That's good news. Gently encourage him to play a spellcasters, preferably with access to healing magic. Alternatively you could also reward the players early with a wand of cure light wounds (which they'll use up pretty quickly). Both the Paladin and the Ranger can use this at 1st level.
I've tried playing a DM run PC in my early teenage days of D&D and it did not go well. I've matured a lot since then so perhaps it would go better today. However the experience was such a bad one, that I have little interest in revisiting it.
If you just want to have an NPC adventure with the party, that's fine as long as you treat it as a separate entity and don't invest yourself in it's success or failure in the adventure. I'd roll him up as an NPC using the rules in the DMG (including the amount of NPC wealth listed there).
I've also had players run multiple (2) PCs at the same time. This certainly works better, but it leads to some stilted role-playing sometimes. Still, I'd recommend this option over a DM run PC anyday. If you go with this option, just have the player create a second character normally.
Obviously the best option is to have a 4+ player, 1 PC each campaign. Best of luck finding a group of fun, interested, mature players for your campaign. | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 12:49 PM |
| | Attemping to wear down brother as we type. I think my friend's friends may play a bard, I'm not sure. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 1:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
quote:
Originally posted by orcmonk220
I have, since this was posted, heard that my friend has convinced a friend to play too. [:)]
That's good news. Gently encourage him to play a spellcasters, preferably with access to healing magic. Alternatively you could also reward the players early with a wand of cure light wounds (which they'll use up pretty quickly). Both the Paladin and the Ranger can use this at 1st level.
There have been times in our long running campaign where my ranger was the main healer of the group with a wand of cure lights and a wand of cure moderate. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 2:15 PM |
| quote:
I've tried playing a DM run PC in my early teenage days of D&D and it did not go well. I've matured a lot since then so perhaps it would go better today. However the experience was such a bad one, that I have little interest in revisiting it.
How did it go bad? I've been using DM run NPC as part of the party since the late 80's without issue. The key is to just make sure that they aren't in a position to make decisions for the group, and to remember that they know what the party knows...
Pat E | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 01/15/2006 4:39 PM |
| | If you only have two players why don't you have them make two characters for the game? | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 6:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
quote:
I've tried playing a DM run PC in my early teenage days of D&D and it did not go well. I've matured a lot since then so perhaps it would go better today. However the experience was such a bad one, that I have little interest in revisiting it.
How did it go bad? I've been using DM run NPC as part of the party since the late 80's without issue. The key is to just make sure that they aren't in a position to make decisions for the group, and to remember that they know what the party knows...
Pat E
Well, it's been years. Basically, it was when I first started playing D&D and I didn't know the rules very well, certainly not well enough to be DMing in the first place. I think I was about 11 at the time (I'm 28 today) and I think that explains a lot of what went wrong (No offense intended to any of our younger gamers; I'm just saying I wasn't ready to handle this).
We were a small group so I decided to play as well as DM. I tried to not show too much favoritism for my character, but it was pretty difficult for me not to. In my experience players, myself included, get attached to their PCs. Can you honestly separate yourself enough from your PC to allow him/her to stuble into traps, fail saves, and get killed? At the time I couldn't. The problem slowly escalated to the point where I was giving myself all the best stuff and our game fell apart. Again, I was young and inexperienced.
In college, I gamed about a half dozen times with a group that had a DM PC. It was just like being in elementary school all over again. Needless to say it totally turned me off to the idea.
If I were to try it again today, it would likely go a lot better. I now have almost 20 years of gaming under my belt and I take DMing very seriously. Still, I would probably detach myself and be so concerned about showing favoritism/giving him insider knowledge so much that I would be more likely to allow him/her to fail saves, stubble into traps and to die. It just isn't worth the headache- plus I'm fortunate enough to have a great group of 5 players. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 01/15/2006 7:06 PM |
| | Try using either a cleric, or a druid. It sounds crazy, but a druid can heal a little, and can summon spontaneously, so as to help save the party legitimately if they get in a rough situation. Animal companion helps too. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 7:50 PM |
| quote:
Can you honestly separate yourself enough from your PC to allow him/her to stuble into traps, fail saves, and get killed? At the time I couldn't. The problem slowly escalated to the point where I was giving myself all the best stuff and our game fell apart. Again, I was young and inexperienced.
Tough no doubt. But the key is to pick an NPC is isn't going to have to do those things.
DON'T pick a Rogue. Few parties ever need more than 1, and if your the only one that is a recipe for disaster. Likewise, in small parties, don't be the only front line fighter. You'll be expected to the lead the charge, and if you know he shouldn't, that blows up the separation of DM and Characters...
Cleric's are susually good, Magic users as well, but they work best when the multiclass (so that they don't get uber powerful), and in both cases, they use their spells to buff everyone else up, rather than just blowing the bejebus out of the opposition.
Pat E | |
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wolfsbane114
Warrior
327 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 5:56 PM |
| | As a Dm I have to play a PC every once in while when my group runs short. The important thing is to make sure the focus stays on your players pc's and make sure they dont rely on your pc to guide them my players know any pcs i run are going to contribute too much to solving of riddles and such more or less their there to fil a space but I have certainguidelines I use t help out in difficult situations. (basically skill rolls come into play here.) | |
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 01/17/2006 12:46 PM |
| | When I run an NPC as a DM, I don't let the NPC contribute to any decisions. Even if he had skills that could be used, I wouldn't actively play the NPC. If another character asked the NPC, hey, could you try gathering information? I would roll the gather information check. And I would tell the party what he learned. As far as combat, I would play it without much strategy other than straightforward--there's the nearest bad dude, so this NPC walks up and attacks. Spell selection is not thought out much for NPCs either. I also ask if anyone wants to control the NPC for the session--if so, they can role play and use better strategy. I don't want to bog my DMing down with more than I need to, and I don't want to contribute DM knowledge accidentally to what an NPC does. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/17/2006 1:19 PM |
| I would actually suggest a Healer, rather than a Cleric for an NPC, no God to consider, very little combat use. They already have heavy hitters, as many said and I would just
concentrate on the DM'ing part and have that character with very little personnality, unless he/she has a quest to do that could help your PC's out. You already have many NPC's to roleplay as a GM: merchants, tavern patrons, authorities, guild leaders, etc.
that you should focus on. Just my two cents on this. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 11:01 AM |
| From Rangers of old, back when they got followers, take that as a cue.
add in an NPC friend or associate of one of the main characters. I would support the idea of a spellcaster, likely a healing oriented cleric who could fight if needed, but more like will be doing things like casting Bless Spells, CLW, Aid, Buffs, Prayer's, etc and helping his allies win the battle, but someone who is also not so weak as to need a lot of protection like an arcane caster might. With the Paladin in the group, having a cleric of his order in attendance would be very easy to justify. Paladins are special members of those orders and often need some extra guidance from devoted members of the faith at times. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10492 Posts
United States
| | 01/20/2006 6:22 PM |
| It just occured to me that you always have the option, as the DM, of running the NPC "red shirt" guy (you know, the guy who goes down to the planet with Kirk and always ends up getting shot).
You could have a whole batch of somewhat generic NPCs ready to go, and when they die, they die. On the one hand, this could frighten your players (but only if you let an NPC live and adventure a while first) or it could embolden them ("Hey, he's going to kill the NPC, he's probably not going to kill us").
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 6:27 PM |
| Killing off a beloved NPC can sometimes have a really good effect in a game as far as character motivation goes.
I definitely don't regret brutally executing Elmo the last time through TOEE... | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/20/2006 7:26 PM |
| IMHO, an NPC should not be designed like a normal PC.Unless there is a particular story aspect for the campaign that demands otherwise, an NPC that travels with the party should be:
1) Functional - if there is no story reason for the NPC, and there is no gap in party abilities that would be well served by adding an NPC, you shoudln't have an NPC.
2) Weak - the DM is there to give the PCs a chance to shine. Not to win the day for them with his awesome PC. An NPC spellcaster should focus on support spells, and leave most of the damage/enemy stopping spells to allies. His stats should be the worst in the party by a decent margin.
3) Extraneous - PCs are the protagonists of your campaign. NPCs, including ones that travel with the party, are minor characters in the tale. NPCs should fade into the background. They shouldn't solve riddles, they shouldn't provide great ideas and they shouldn't draw the spot-light.
The idea behind these rules is this: As a DM, you're there to provide the world for the protagonists of the story. You're not supposed to be one of the protagonists. Focus on your job, and the game will run better. If you get distracted by the 'uber-cool' powers of your NPC, you're likely to spoil the fun of the players by stealing their thunder. | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 8:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Killing off a beloved NPC can sometimes have a really good effect in a game as far as character motivation goes.
I definitely don't regret brutally executing Elmo the last time through TOEE...
EDIT: By the way, in our Ebberon game, IanB (the DM) runs a cleric (we had started with just three PCs). He let me build him using point buy (I'm blanking on how many points though). I think that's a pretty decent way of making an NPC you're going to run ... you can't have super crazy stats, but you're not going to end up with anything super crappy either.
Basically, as long as you don't let the character somehow slide into a leadership role, it shouldn't be too terrible. I know our group doesn't mind if Justin the Cleric actually DOES something mildly important (not that he has, but ...), because he's still part of the team, but it would just be bizarre having our DM playing the leader of our party as well. | |
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 01/20/2006 9:14 PM |
| jgsugden... that sounds kind of neat actually. Having a group with a bunch of player characters, then including a bunch of npcs using the npc classes from the DMG.
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
IMHO, an NPC should not be designed like a normal PC.Unless there is a particular story aspect for the campaign that demands otherwise, an NPC that travels with the party should be:
1) Functional - if there is no story reason for the NPC, and there is no gap in party abilities that would be well served by adding an NPC, you shoudln't have an NPC.
2) Weak - the DM is there to give the PCs a chance to shine. Not to win the day for them with his awesome PC. An NPC spellcaster should focus on support spells, and leave most of the damage/enemy stopping spells to allies. His stats should be the worst in the party by a decent margin.
3) Extraneous - PCs are the protagonists of your campaign. NPCs, including ones that travel with the party, are minor characters in the tale. NPCs should fade into the background. They shouldn't solve riddles, they shouldn't provide great ideas and they shouldn't draw the spot-light.
The idea behind these rules is this: As a DM, you're there to provide the world for the protagonists of the story. You're not supposed to be one of the protagonists. Focus on your job, and the game will run better. If you get distracted by the 'uber-cool' powers of your NPC, you're likely to spoil the fun of the players by stealing their thunder.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/21/2006 3:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Cthulhufnord
jgsugden... that sounds kind of neat actually. Having a group with a bunch of player characters, then including a bunch of npcs using the npc classes from the DMG.
That wasn't really what I was suggesting, but thanks. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 02/04/2006 12:02 AM |
| A rule of thumb I follow when running an NPC: "They have what the party needs to continue on."
I learned this when I designed a Mystic Theurge to complement a samurai and a monk in a ca mpaign that went from lvl 1 to lvl 21. I designed her as a blaster, but I often had to pretend she memorized certain important spells ahead of time. Or that she had bought that obscure scroll of Air Walk at the last town.
In another adventure my buddy and I co-DM'd. We'd take turns and run out characters as NPC's. I had a pretty powerful character, and when I dm's I felt bad because my character stole the spotlight. I played him like I would a PC.
Basically you need to remember that the NPC should be helping the PC's and not stealing the show. Make the NPC a utility character that improves o nthe overall party. I had to switch NPC's a few times in that one campaign until I found the one that rounded out the party the most. | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 2:54 PM |
| | It's been a while since you originally posted. Hopefully you have found your resolution. Still another persepctive would be you are the DM you have the ability to run in any needed NPCs when they are needed (as long as it fits with the adventure). I always found the death/loss of NPCs to be a game reality check for the rest of the party. (Of course I also managed to kill PCs and then would turn over NPCs to keep players in the adventure so good NPCs are a help. | |
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