| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
    
Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 01/24/2006 5:29 PM |
| Bardic knowledge is technically limited to certain types of information. These types of information seem to overlap with other knowledge skills to a large degree. How do the various DMs handle the overlaps?
To be specific: Bardic knowledge covers local notable people, legendary items and notable places. Local notable people could be covered by knowledge skills in history, local or nobility (or other knowledge skills). Legendary items could be covered in history, local, arcana or religion (or other knowledge skills). Notable places could be handled under geography, history or local (or other knowledge skills).
I do acknowledge the 'synergy' bonus for ranks in knowledge history. That covers part of the overlap ... but how do you handle the rest?
As an example:
Let's say that there was a paladin prince that lived 2,000 years ago. He had a powerful magic sword with very peculiar symbol that played a big part in many of his adventures (and is linked to his name as closely as King Arthur and Excalibur). He died during a quest where he was trying to destroy an unholy temple of the evil God of Magic and Secrets located somewhere in the Frostfang Mountains.
An adventuring party based in the foothills of the Frostfang Mountains finds a cave hidden away in the mountains. They decide to investigate, and find a hidden room that appears to once have been part of a temple to a long forgotten God of Magic and Secrets. The room contains the remains of a paladin in nice armor. The armor is decorated with the heraldry of an empire that existed 2,000 years ago, but which fell nearly 1,800 years ago. The corpse is lying on a really nice sword with peculiar symbols on it.
The party has a bard, a wizard and a cleric. The bard has high ranks in knowledge: history, and knowledge: local (as well as his bardic knowledge). The wizard has high ranks in knowledge: arcana, and knowledge: nobility. The cleric has high ranks in knowledge: religion.
Up to this point, the party had seen no evidence of the temple, the prince, the sword, or anything else that might provide a clue as to the identity of the corpse, the powers of the weapon, or anything else relevant. Accordingly, this is their first attempt to try a knowledge check.
How does the DM handle the knowledge checks? If just one check is rolled, should the PCS get bonuses due to all the overlapping areas of knowledge? Or should they get one check for each applicable skill, with the best result used to determine how much the PCs should be told? | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 01/24/2006 5:59 PM |
| First, I'd wonder why the wizard took ranks in Knowledge: Nobility. It's not one usually chosen by wizards in my experience.
Second, in this instance, I would give each character one chance to roll what they know about the character. This is an "I remember this from school" kind of moment. They should not be allowed to stand there making a roll for each knowledge check.
The bard could choose one of his skills, whichever he wants (I would assume the highest) to make the check. If he chose a skill instead of Bardic knowledge, I might allow him a 2nd Bardic knowledge roll, but at penalty. Maybe -4 or more, depending on how close his first roll was. This would represent the bard's scattered knowledge acquisistion. He may suddenly remember a song, poem, limric, whatever about the fallen paladin.
The Wizard would make his or her choice. The knowledge: arcana would help him remember something about a sword and its wielder. The knowledge: nobility would allow more info on the paladin himself, which would also reveal the name of the weapon. (Cross-talk between the skills, but limited, depending on the knowledge chosen.)
The cleric would get his know: religion roll to remember the Paladin. His weapon may have been covered, but the cleric might know more only if it has "holy, blessed, evil outsider bane, undead bane, or similar properties on it. A cleric would defintely know more about such "good" abilities.
I wouldn't give bonuses for overlapping skills unless I really wanted them to remember the Paladin.
Of course, this would be my version of events. | |
Trade & talk in real time on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis SOFTWARE: PC | PC (free) | MAC
Champion of ALL Dragons and the Dragon Shaman
][ My Trade Shoppe ][ Vindicated Champion of Aspects of Draconic Deities
| |
|
wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 01/24/2006 10:03 PM |
| Unless there is a certain way that you want to introduce PC information that is story-related I would be inclined to allow all kinds of bonuses on these checks. Probably the following:
1.) If a bard has 5 or more ranks in a relevant Knowledge skill to discover a piece of information that could also be accessed with Bardic Knowledge I would ask for a Bardic Knowledge check with an extra +2 bonus. The implication is that if he/she had 5+ ranks in Knowledge(history) he/she would get this bonus anyways, but if he/she had chosen to max out Knowledge(local) instead I'd still give the synergy bonus if the information in question is indeed local.
2.) If the bard has 5 or more ranks in 2 Knowledge skills that both apply to the information in question along with Bardic Knowledge, I would ask for a Bardic Knowledge check with an extra +4 bonus. I would continue stacking synergy bonuses for as many Knowledge skills as he/she has 5+ ranks in and are relevant to the check. Thus an ancient magical sword found in/near the locale where the famous paladin had lived, worked, and died I would give an extra +6 bonus to the Bardic Knowledge check if the Bard had 5+ ranks in each of Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(History), and Knowledge(Local). If you're allowing the check and the Bard is this knowledgable, why shouldn't he/she have an excellent chance of knowing the answer? You can always raise the DC if you want to be stingy later on...
3.) If one player has a relevant Knowledge skill and makes a successful check for some portion of the information and that character relates this information to a Bard or another character with a relevant Knowledge skill, I would give a +2 circumstance bonus to the second player making the check for additional information thanks to the player-player collaboration. Often a team of detectives can piece the evidence together faster than the single "know-it-all." If I'm feeling generous I'll make this a cumulative bonus as well. For example, if the wizard in jgsugden's post uses Knowledge(Arcana) to figure out that its a magic sword (or if he'd cast Detect Magic), and the Cleric uses Knowledge(Religion) to note that some of the strange markings are obscure deific symbols from a bygone era, then I would give the Bard +4 to his Bardic Knowledge check due to what he already knows about the item thanks to his colleagues. | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
(There's just so much roleplaying to be done with a large skeletal snake!) | |
|
Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 1:16 AM |
| I handle Bardic Knowledge checks as a general catch-all for any kind of knowledge that, in my opinion, may have made its way into song or storytelling. Generally speaking, Bardic Knowledge checks are at a slightly higher DC than specific Knowledge skills for the same "level of obscurity" of information. (I believe this is codifed somewhere ... Complete Adventurer, maybe.) At the same time, though, Bardic Knowledge is a little broader in what you can learn ... with the same check, you may remember elements of all the facets John mentioned, but not in real depth.
I don't allow any synergy between other Knowledge skills and Bardic Knowledge (other than History). I figure that the bonus from Knowledge (history) is from old songs, poems, and orations the bard has found during research, and that if additional synergy was intended, it would be explicitly called out.
I'm not sure why dariustad would only allow one specific Knowledge check. If the check represents what the character remembers knowing, why does the character have to choose between remembering about history and about heraldry? I'd allow one specific check per skill, but, again, each skill would return information accordingly, unlike Bardic Knowledge, which will give the overall picture in broad strokes. A character with ranks in three relevant skills, who succeeds well with all three, will -- and should -- have a much deeper and technical understanding of the subject than a bard, who picks up his knowledge more or less by osmosis. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
| |
| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 2:08 AM |
| The reason I would limit it to one roll is due to the fact they are standing in some forgotten place after a likely string of fights, exploration, surviving the region, and whatever other challenges were thrown in the way. Suddenly walking in, seeing someone/something should not suddenly cause them to go through a large number of knowledge checks.
If they had researched the topic beforehand, obviously, they would know more since they had specifically been looking for the data. There should be fewer questions and the knowledge checks would be more along the lines of, "The armour is indicative of the time," or, "That's his sword, this must be him!"
If they had stumbled into the situation blindly (i.e. the DM had them find it as part of another adventure), why would the party suddenly be able to remember so much? It really is more of a blind, "Hey, I remember a story about this" situation than "I read a dozen books on this era and this paladin was in all of them."
We all DM in our own ways based on certain DM-caused situations. None of our approaches are inherently wrong, nor do they "break the game" or make a character feel left out.
After the party returned to town -- and if they remained curious -- I would not be against a string of knowledge checks, especially if they are standing in the middle of a library. | |
Trade & talk in real time on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis SOFTWARE: PC | PC (free) | MAC
Champion of ALL Dragons and the Dragon Shaman
][ My Trade Shoppe ][ Vindicated Champion of Aspects of Draconic Deities
| |
|
Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 7:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
Suddenly walking in, seeing someone/something should not suddenly cause them to go through a large number of knowledge checks.
It doesn't cause it ... it allows it. I still don't understand why you'd penalize Knowledge skills this way.
From the SRD: "In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t." And: "Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions)."
There's no requirement that a character have a library ... Knowledge represents what they already know. It's perfectly reasonable to give a circumstance bonus for access to research materials, of course.
Not only can PCs perform Knowledge checks after a tough battle, they can perform them during and before tough battles, too, often getting multiple pieces of extremely specific and useful information. From the SRD: "you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information."
Imagine if Indiana Jones were only limited to one Knowledge check each time he encountered something weird. "Hmmm, I dunno. Should I use Knowledge (history) to tell me about the battle that took place here, or Knowledge (religion) to try and figure out what order of pious knights these were? Only get one!"
Obviously, as the DM you can adjudicate Knowledge however you want to. I'd just respectfully suggest you ask yourself why you're limiting a certain subset of skills in ways that aren't in the rules. Let the wizard (or other hyper-Knowledge PC) feels erudite and sagacious. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
| |
|
notserious
Sneak
117 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 8:48 AM |
| Not that you need or want my approval, but kudos on running a campaign where players are encouraged to have skills that aren't necessarily useful in combat and kudos to your players for tapping into that and taking skills that aren't always an auto-fit with the icon for that class (a la wizard with knowledge:nobility).
My usual approach is to pick out what clues are available and determine what knowledge skills would relate to those clues and what the DC would be. I then tend to leave it up to my PC's to declare how they are trying to interpret the clues. "Does my bard remember any stories with a sword matching the description of that sword?" "Does my wizard recognize the heraldic symbol from his knowledge of nobility" "What does my cleric recall about this god of magic and secrets - were there temples in this area, who took them out?". The rules give DM's that discretionary circumstance bonus of +2, you could even give some sort of bonus to putting together the whole history based on how many clues were uncovered. If you and your players are less comfortable with that '20 questions' approach, you could do it as a straight synergy bonus, or use the help another rules - "the wizard and cleric share what they know with the Bard in the hope of helping him remember a story that relates to this situation."
| |
| |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/25/2006 12:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by notserious
Not that you need or want my approval, but kudos on running a campaign where players are encouraged to have skills that aren't necessarily useful in combat and kudos to your players for tapping into that and taking skills that aren't always an auto-fit with the icon for that class (a la wizard with knowledge:nobility).
Those were purely hypothetical examples ... although the bard in my campaign has done everything possible to boost his bardic knowledge ability. I'm primarily asking for opinions to make sure I'm not denying him any benefits that otgher DMs might give him due to his focus ...
Someone mentioned there being rules relating to combining knowledge and bardic knowledge in the Complete Adventurer ... I couldn't find it. Anyone else have an idea where this might be found? Song and Silence, maybe? | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |