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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
    
 | | 01/25/2006 10:11 AM |
| My game has 3 good characters and 1 LE assassin. The player really wanted to play the assassin. Do you think it's possible for the assassin to have a change of heart and become non-evil as he spends more time with the Good characters as he forms a bond of friendship? Is it still acceptable to continueing leveling as an assassin? Should he keep the death attack ability? What should the DM do?"
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 10:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chris Orlando
My game has 3 good characters and 1 LE assassin. The player really wanted to play the assassin. Do you think it's possible for the assassin to have a change of heart and become non-evil as he spends more time with the Good characters as he forms a bond of friendship? Is it still acceptable to continueing leveling as an assassin? Should he keep the death attack ability? What should the DM do?"
Absolutely he can have a change of heart and become LN. One of the players in our group turned from LE to LN. No, he would not be able to advance in levels of Assassin after changing alignment but would keep his death attack ability. This is my interputation of the rules.
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 10:43 AM |
| | A reformed assassin is a great character idea. There are even a few PrCs that deal with this: Slayer or Domiel from the Book of Exalted Deeds is one that comes to mind. We even have a mini to represent it. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 11:35 AM |
| Assassins in theory (regardless of what the game rules say) would not have to be evil in my mind. They will almost certainly be lawful. If he was part of an organization that determined some individual was truely in need of termination for the greater good of all, he might have to assasinate the target.
Now if the only motivation is being paid money to kill various targets, that is not a good thing, but this opens the whole discussion about whether or not PC's can be good and kill monsters, take lives and so on. One school of thought is that dead is dead, and whether killed by a sword blow in open combat, sent to a dirt nap via poison in your sleep, or blown to bits in a fireball, the end result is the same. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/25/2006 1:11 PM |
| LE can work in a good party, if the good party is willing to allow it, and the LE character is not so outrageously LE as to make it impossible for the sides to work together. In fact, it is also possible for NE or CE characters to join a good party ...
As a cinematic example, think of the Firefly/Serenity characters. If you know the series/movie, you can think of Jayne as an example of an evil character that works with a good party. If I were to assign alignments to each character in the series/movies, I'd go with:
Malcolm - CG
Zoe - NG
Wash - CG
Book - LG (at least superficially so)
Inara - NG
Kaylee - CG
Simon - NN
River - CN
Jayne - NE
You can definitely argue on some of those alignments, but I think there is a strong argument that some of those characters are definitely good, and Jayne is definitely on the evil side. As long as he stays somewhat in line, they tolerate him - and he certainly has found a reason to be amongst them.
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 1:58 PM |
| Assassins come in different flavors...those who are assassins because they are mostly a mercenary with an specific skill and see their marks as a job and nothing else are those that I would think might reform.
Those assassins that kill and smile while doing it because they find pleassure in drainning someone's life...I would say those are twisted at the core and would hardly turn to good (at least my ruling as a DM), so I guess it all depends how he is playing the character.
LE is a title given by those who do not see things as they do; most characters titled LE think in their perspective they are right in what they are doing and their means are justified and therefore consider themselves good. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 01/25/2006 2:05 PM |
| | You might be able to work in some sort of incident that may result in the assassin bonding his service to the party. | | | |
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Oni
Underboss
1131 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 2:04 AM |
| The rules (in my opinion) state that an assassin must be evil because he must kill some one for the pure purpose of joining the orginazation. No matter how you look at that it is murder, and thus only doable by evil.
Also in my opinion that is one of the dumbest prereq.s. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 2:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Oni
Also in my opinion that is one of the dumbest prereq.s.
Agreed. Did the character choose LE simply to qualify for the PrC, or does he really want to play an evil character? If the former, I would just change the requirements for the prestige class. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 3:09 AM |
| Heh. I love these interpretations.
quote:
Malcolm - CG
Zoe - NG
Agreed, although Zoe could be LG. (Remember, LG characters can oppose an unjust government.) She is very much a chain-of-command type.
quote:
Wash - CG
NG. He spends a fair amount of non-smarting-off time mediating between other crewmembers.
quote:
Book - LG (at least superficially so)
Agreed. But what we don't know! (And I suppose never will.) I think Book is LG during the show/film, but something closer to LN before he took holy orders.
quote:
Inara - NG
Kaylee - CG
Agreed. As you said, they are, at least, Good.
quote:
Simon - NN
Nah, he's Good, too. Remember his "vengeance" on Jayne? I'd even go so far as to say he started as LG, but the Lawful has slipped quite a bit.
quote:
River - CN
Because she's crazy? Nah. The only thing she ever did that wasn't Good was triggered by an implanted suggestion. Probably CG.
quote:
Jayne - NE
I would actually argue that Jayne is CN.Everything he does is motivated by self-interest, not by the desire to do bad stuff. Sure, he talks a good game about killing people for money, but we never actually ever see him do it. If Jayne were truly evil, Serenity would have been captured or destroyed in the first three episodes.
He's a good example of how CN can work in a group, though. For that matter he's a fine example of the CN alignment, which nearly everybody has trouble with. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 3:23 AM |
| Haven't seen lots of Firefly, but I agree with Jayne as CN. His bark is worse than his bite.
As for an LE player in a Good party, don't allow it. Work with the player to change to LN. Seriously, it's not worth the headaches and you must be a superb DM and conflict-resolution manager (there will be lots of conflict) and the player must be very mature or your game will quickly degenerate...
Also, you have to create new hooks that you otherwise wouldn't have to in order to motivate your LE player (typical hooks like saving the damsel in distress or helping the downtrodden or just following your conscience are just irrelevant for him), so that just means more work for you.
Not saying mature players and DMs can't run evil players, but it's best in an all-evil campaign. Mixing alignments is tough. NE would be the least difficult of the 3 evils to integrate though, since most players can interpret this as just being greedy and selfish and can let the party pressure him into not advocating or acting outrageously evil. In contrast, it would be harder to justify a LE or CE deferring in such an open way to good party members. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/26/2006 9:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Assassins in theory (regardless of what the game rules say) would not have to be evil in my mind. They will almost certainly be lawful. If he was part of an organization that determined some individual was truely in need of termination for the greater good of all, he might have to assasinate the target.
Now if the only motivation is being paid money to kill various targets, that is not a good thing, but this opens the whole discussion about whether or not PC's can be good and kill monsters, take lives and so on. One school of thought is that dead is dead, and whether killed by a sword blow in open combat, sent to a dirt nap via poison in your sleep, or blown to bits in a fireball, the end result is the same.
Totally agree with this and in the past even house ruled that assassins don't need to be evil. (Especially if your an assassin for King and Country.) | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 1:33 PM |
| | Right, would 007 be considered evil? By some standards he would be, but he is clearly depicted as defeneding right and good and mother country by whatever means are neccesary (at least up to a PG-13 rating). | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/26/2006 1:37 PM |
| As I said, arguments can be made for all the alignments I assigned. Some of them really span a multitude of alignments at different times, but I'm comfortable with what I said for each of them (although CG does seem better for River once she gains some sanity ...) However, I'd like to focus on Jayne for a moment. I think a little discussion of the difference between CN and the evil alignments might benefit people.
Neutral Evil
The first lines of the Neutral Evil description in the PHB says it all: "A neutral evil villian does whatever (he) can get away with. (He) is out for (himself), pure and simple. (He) sheds no tears for those (he) kills, whether for profit, sport or convenience..."
Jayne sells out the people on his ship for convenience/profit, and feels no remorse for being a thief (and killer). He often recommends killing as a solution, when other options are available. That isn't to say that he'd kill anyone on a whim ... he is not a 100 on the 100 point scale of evil. But he is clearly above a 67 on the scale in my eyues. The guy is a pretty perfect fit for NE in my book.
Chaotic Neutral
CN is described as: "A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty, but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom..."
I see two main problems with calling Jayne CN: 1) He doesn't mind having a chain of command (even stating a desire to be in charge of the ship), and 2) His decision making process focuses on the benefit to him specifically, with no regard for his allies or innocents that get in the way.
If you look in the law versus chaos section of the alignment description, you'll see the following paragraph:
"Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey, nor a compulsion to rebel. (He) is honest, but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others."
Jayne respects the chain of command, but doesn't feel bad about challenging it when he disagrees ... and is even willing to go against Mal's wishes when it benefits him the most. He generally tells the truth to his allies, except when it can really profit him to lie to thm.
In the end, we get a guy that is in the middle of the scale between law and chaos, and clearly out for himself with no true regard for anyone else. That is pure NE.
So, (IMHO) how would Jayne act if he were CN instead of NE?
He wouldn't have been a bandit, in the first place. With a neutral alignment (with regards to good and evil), he'd neither be willing to steal to benefit himself, or stop thieves that were robbing others. So, he wouldn't have been part of a gang when that gang tried to rob Mal, and they'd never have met.
If he became a crew member in some other fashion, he'd be less inclined to follow the chain of command. If Mal gave an order he didn't like, he'd either challenge it, or disobey. This would likely get him tossed off Mal's ship, but a chaotic neutral character would value his freedom over being employed.
These are just my opinions. People can feel free to disagree ... but I think too many people place too many characters in CN when they probably deserve to be in one of the evil alignments. If people read the alignment section a few times, they may find themselves changing their perspectives on how they'd assign alignments to a fwe of the PCs in their games ... | |
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 1:40 PM |
| | The thing is that 007 is always doing things for the greater good, except for him having sex with every hot girl in sight. I would consider 007 LN personally rather than LE. He is killing people but for the most part i recall him only killing evil people who are threatening many innocent lives. | |
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 1:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
Haven't seen lots of Firefly, but I agree with Jayne as CN. His bark is worse than his bite.
As for an LE player in a Good party, don't allow it. Work with the player to change to LN. Seriously, it's not worth the headaches and you must be a superb DM and conflict-resolution manager (there will be lots of conflict) and the player must be very mature or your game will quickly degenerate...
Also, you have to create new hooks that you otherwise wouldn't have to in order to motivate your LE player (typical hooks like saving the damsel in distress or helping the downtrodden or just following your conscience are just irrelevant for him), so that just means more work for you.
Not saying mature players and DMs can't run evil players, but it's best in an all-evil campaign. Mixing alignments is tough. NE would be the least difficult of the 3 evils to integrate though, since most players can interpret this as just being greedy and selfish and can let the party pressure him into not advocating or acting outrageously evil. In contrast, it would be harder to justify a LE or CE deferring in such an open way to good party members.
Personally im leaning twards what this person is saying. Well anways the person is going to switch atleast allignments because he knows im pressureing him not to be evil, and i dont think the person wanted to be evil in the first place, he only wanted to be an assassin. Never the less the kid is probelly gona change classes completely which kinda pisses me off but ohh well, ill deal with out because without the players there wont be a game. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 2:18 PM |
| Keeping the assassin abilities is sort of a sticky situation rules-wise. If you accept the text on page 16 of Complete Warrior as valid, then anytime you lose the prerequisites for a prestige class, you lose access to all features of that class.
Because an alignment of "any evil" is a requirement for assassins, changing alignment to LN would mean that the character has lost a prerequisite and thus also lost all assassin class features (beyond hit dice, base attack bonus, skill points, and saving throws.
If you don't accept it as valid, you should probably still shut down further advancement in the class, as one of the prerequisites is lost. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/26/2006 2:59 PM |
| | Another thing to consider here: I always say that you should start with the personality, and then assign the alignment. Begin by role playing out a fwe childhood situations in your brain (no dice needed). Figure out how the character would handle a bully picking on his brother, a drunken uncle that beats his aunt, spotting a poor child stealing in a market, etc ... Once you have a grip on the PCs personality, then read the PHB alignment section and assign the best personality. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 5:19 PM |
| | Also remember YOU are the DM it is YOUR world if a class prereq seems odd or does not fit with your game then change it. A fairly minor change like an alignment, particularly when it is well thought out as several above have done, should cause very little if any trouble. | |
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Oni
Underboss
1131 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 5:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Neutral Evil
The first lines of the Neutral Evil description in the PHB says it all: "A neutral evil villian does whatever (he) can get away with. (He) is out for (himself), pure and simple. (He) sheds no tears for those (he) kills, whether for profit, sport or convenience..."
Jayne sells out the people on his ship for convenience/profit, and feels no remorse for being a thief (and killer). He often recommends killing as a solution, when other options are available. That isn't to say that he'd kill anyone on a whim ... he is not a 100 on the 100 point scale of evil. But he is clearly above a 67 on the scale in my eyues. The guy is a pretty perfect fit for NE in my book.
Not only that, but in my favorite Episode was the one where he his displayed as a hero. Remeber he threw out his old partner when his ship was over loaded... not the loot his own partner. Thats evil in my book. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 01/27/2006 12:57 AM |
| Having seen all of three episodes of Firefly, I hereby withdraw my analysis of Jayne. He seemed CN to me, but could very well be NE in the dozens of other episodes I never glimpsed.
As for a non-evil assassin, that's kosher. D&D is a game of dealing death. Dwell too long on the morality of it all and everyone can be painted as evil in some regard. Paladins marching into goblin villages and massacring every last humanoid even if they aren't caught in the act of doing evil just because you "detect" badness in them. "Heroes" breaking into a sleeping dragon's lair, slaying it while it slumbers, and then looting its possessions, just because it's blue-skinned and not gold-skinned. Damned racists adventurers!
So all you really need to do to let him continue to be an assassin is just tell the PC to death and sneak attack non-good creatures. I'm sure you can work it out. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/27/2006 4:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
As for a non-evil assassin, that's kosher. D&D is a game of dealing death. Dwell too long on the morality of it all and everyone can be painted as evil in some regard. Paladins marching into goblin villages and massacring every last humanoid even if they aren't caught in the act of doing evil just because you "detect" badness in them. "Heroes" breaking into a sleeping dragon's lair, slaying it while it slumbers, and then looting its possessions, just because it's blue-skinned and not gold-skinned. Damned racists adventurers!
...
Heh.
Core D&D is designed to be a 'black and white' world when it comes to good and evil (except in Eberron). Some creatures ARE evil, by their very nature, with no exceptions (except in Eberron). A blue dragon is *always* lawful evil by the rules (except in Eberron). Accordingly, when heroes see a blue dragon, they can kill it with no worries that they might be facing a neutral or good creature (except in Eberron).
The same applies to creatures identified by a paladin's detection ability. His GOD is telling him, "Mr. Paladin, these guys need to be killed ... they deserve to die because they are bad."
You're entirely correct that actions such as these ("You can kill it because of the color of its skin / God told me to kill them") don't work in the real world. However, D&D is not reality (despite the fact that I can fly and turn invisible in both settings). Core D&D is designed to prevent these types of real world moral dilemmas and keep things simple and straight forward (except in Eberron).
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go up to the roof, turn invisible and float around the city detecting evil ... | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 01/27/2006 5:22 PM |
| | All this talk about J's alignment has reinforced why I hate alignment in the first place. I know it's a necessary part of the game, but I wish it were very simple, clear cut and easy to determine. CN vs. NE. Ugh. | | | |
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notserious
Sneak
117 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 12:02 PM |
| I remember toying with a two layer alignment system a while back when I was under the delusion that I actually had time. It came from some of the stuff that is being discussed here. It seems there is alignment that describes personality, and there is alignment that describes what team you're on - not only do demons do mean things, they're the starting five for team EVIL. One of the neat part in a lot of fiction is that folks on the same team can have differing personalities (Jayne of Firefly is a classic, but even Han Solo in episode IV, Achilles in the Illiad (if you wanna get real old school)). The paladin's abilities make a lot of sense from a evil-as-a-team school, they don't make nearly as much sense in a he-hath-jay-walked-and-must-be-smote way. It's somewhat akin, from what I've read second hand to things like taint in the BoED (which I don't own and swear I can smell Gouda just by mentioning it) - evil far beyond the realm of stealing candy from babies.
I gave up on the dual system because it made things more complicated as I had to include that there could be a gradual slide from personality evil to team EVIL.
As far as assassins go, I think if you're going to change the alignment restriction go whole hog and change the PrC - some of it's aspects are tied to team EVIL as things stand.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 12:13 PM |
| | One of the things to look at for Jayne... is in the movie, one of his many quotes is "If you can't do something smart, do something right." And he is the first person to go along with the plan to broadcast the information about Miranda. | |
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cyderakk
Warrior
313 Posts
| | 02/01/2006 11:04 PM |
| I think it depends on what the other players are using as character classes......if you had a chaotic good character no matter what class i'd say the assassin would not adventure with that character ........and assassins can't use their assassin abilitites if they become anything but lawful evil.....if you have any questions the desciption for the assassin prestige class explains it all
you could always check FAQ boards for some insight into it | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 4:10 PM |
| | I think the answer to your question lies in how you regard the rules. Are they guidelines or absolutes? The second question is whether or not your players will allow the co-existence. You might be able to justify it but the way a player chooses to play his character might keep it from being a reality. | |
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 3:21 PM |
| | Thanks a lot everyone for all of your advice! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/08/2006 3:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
One of the things to look at for Jayne... is in the movie, one of his many quotes is "If you can't do something smart, do something right." And he is the first person to go along with the plan to broadcast the information about Miranda.
If you have the DVD, watch the commentary during that scene. Wheedon's comments on why Jayne was the first to jump on board with Mal's plan are quite illuminating into how Wheedon viewed Jayne. | |
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