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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
    
 | | 01/26/2006 1:50 PM |
| | So, I've got a player in my group who despite his good intentions frequently seems to lose his cool and do something nonoptimal in regards to alignment. He currently has a paladin, and while LG can lose his temper/cool and be really nasty sometimes, IMO stretching to the realm of evil alignments. What do I do? | | | |
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 2:09 PM |
| Hey man, well the first off, I don't allow paladins in my game for the reason that there are to many arguments on what i think a paladin is Vs. what they think a paladin is/can do (that is unless you know the player could handle it for the long hall).
Second if he does anything that you feel is out of allignment, i would instantly strip his palidinhood (if you dont know what that is, takeing away all paladin abilities). He can recover them with an attonment which is like a lvl 5 cleric spell.
Another option is force him to write you a code of conduct which is somthing a paladin prides themselves on.
Personally i think a paladin should never lose his cool unless he see something so evil happen that he will do anything in his power to prevent it, but even then they should never sacrifce there Lawfull goodness for the greater good.
On argument you should be aware of from this person in your group is the famous argument that Lawfull good doesn't mean lawfull stupid and i would just counter that argument by useing his code of conduct against him. If you look in past posts there are many posts discussing paladins and how to deal with them and how to roll play them, so you can also refer back to that for other advice. | |
Zardnaar, One dork to rule them all. | |
| 2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 2:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sharn Inquisitor
So, I've got a player in my group who despite his good intentions frequently seems to lose his cool and do something nonoptimal in regards to alignment. He currently has a paladin, and while LG can lose his temper/cool and be really nasty sometimes, IMO stretching to the realm of evil alignments. What do I do?
Well, I can ABSOLUTELY see a paladin losing their temper. I can even see a Paladin acting a way that might be considered by some to be "evil."
I play in Eberron though, where alignments are used more to describe personality than explicit behavior.
For example, the Silver Flame is a "Good & Righteous Church." Wee. They have paladins. These paladins can be lawful good. The teaching of this Church is that lycanthropes and their ilk are evil, and must be destroyed. This dogmatism (which makes for awesome drama) leads to stereotypical exaggerations, and behavior that might be considered evil. Attacking an otherwise peaceful shifter on sight and "sending him to meet the Flame," is a decidedly "evil" action to some. The church also feeds the poor, helps the homeless, kisses babies, and does a TON of lawful good things. Paladins will also do those things. Remember both the terms "lawful" and "good" are subject to relativistic interpretations. In the case of a Paladin they're following the "Law" of the church (kill all the shifters, they're evil spawns of demons), and their acting in accordance with what their entire background tells them is "good" (you're making the world safer for everyone.
Some people don't like relative interpretations of alignments. That's okay, it's just too abstract of a concept for some games to manage effectively. I LOVE the tension and drama it creates, and the psychology of rationalization is fascinating to me, so I allow it.
I could easily see a Paladin being overcome with righteous anger and doing something stupid. If he makes habit of it, it may be time to shift his alignment, or have the church reign him in.
If he engages in a lot of actions that are not considered either "lawful" or "good" by his church, then I'd consider some intervention there as wel. | |
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Jefftyjeffjeff
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 2:44 PM |
| 3E has a couple of these little legacy blips left in it. 3E did a great thing for D&D by numericizing so much, so that there were RULES for everything, requiring fewer judgment calls.
But the paladin LG thing still freaks people out, because there's a hard rules penalty (loss of paladin powers) tied to a soft role-playing trigger. For most people, this is fine. They can negotiate this. But for other people, a hard rules set of LG behavior can solve the problem.
Here's something I'd try if this ever came up.
The player defines:
5 things the character absolutely will always do.
5 things the character absolutely will never do.
Each of those dos and don'ts must be explicitly tied to static, non-negotiable game statistics (relative level, hit dice, evilness, creature type, etc.)
For instance, "I will never steal." is a very paladin-esque committment, but it is not tied to a game-specific value, and so, is unsuitable. Instead, "I will not use or carry an item that has been claimed in my presence by a creature with a Wisdom and Charisma score." creates a hard rule with game stats to define "stealing."
Yes, you can still weasel around this. But that's not the point. The point is to 1) create a concrete set of behaviors that will more or less define Lawful Good for this character and 2) to distract the player with a new rules set that he or she will have to consult before doing loose cannon stuff. This won't stop temper flares, but it serves as a checkpoint between "lawful good" and "long-running argument" for people who don't have an internalized sense of how to act lawful good and still have fun with a group of friends.
Any behavior that falls outside those strictly delineated rules, let 'em go. For your paladin purposes, they're irrelevant. No matter how illogical that gets, let it slide. That simulates the extreme of Law that a paladin might hit sometimes, and it keeps you, the DM, from having to spend a lot of time weighing faux moral quandaries when you need to be overseeing other aspects of the game. | |
Jeff Quick, Philadelphia
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 2:47 PM |
| I really like Kiddoc's explanation of it. I actually just finished the Ebrron book "Marked for Death." It's a great way of seeing the paladin attitude because there are about four of them gathered together and they constantly have conflicts between what makes sense and what's "good."
I would like to correct Kiddoc a little bit. The Silver Flame does not look upon shifters with the "kill them all" attitude. They tend to look down upon them, but not with the same attitude as they do true lycanthropes, so a Silver Flame paladin carving his way through every shifter he meets will soon find himself in a lot of trouble. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 3:30 PM |
| There will always be alignment problems.
Most people in the world and in fiction has complex personalities that do not fall easily into nine pidgeon holes of behaviour.
Palidins are actually one of the easy characters to play. Simply have the player right up a detailed ironclad code of behaviour before he starts playing. This allows the player to crystalize in his mind the personality of his character and prevents any surprises for the DM.
I find more problems with players that use Chotic to mean "I can do any evil act I want when it benfits me from a metagame point of view"
Regardless of the players alignment certain acts are always evil. especially if they are motivated by cruilty, greed, or pitiness. Quite often players take situations where thier character is forced into an untasteful act as an excuse to be evil.
for example:
(Perfectly Aceptable)
The CN barbarian has capture a goblin scout who has important information. The player trys to intimadate him when this fails he tell the DM that he is going to have to rough him up to get the info. Works him over and then manages a sucessful intimdate. He then coup de gras the goblin.
(Possible Acceptable: If the information is important)
The CN barbarian has capture a goblin scout who has important information. The player trys to intimadate him when this fails he tell the DM that he is going to have to rough him up to get the info. Works him over and then trys again. Again he fails. He then treatens to castrates the goblin with a pair of bolt cutters. Again no luck getting the information. he goes ahead and castrates the goblin. At this point he manages to get the information. He then coup de gras the goblin.
(not Acceptable)
The CN barbarian has capture a goblin scout who has important information. The PC does not bother with an Intimadate check. The player tells the DM that he is going to strip him nake and hang him upside down from his ankles. He then treatens to castrates the goblin with a pair of bolt cutters. After getting the information he goes ahead and castrates the goblin. He then cut the goblins tounge out and leave him hung upside down to blead to death. | |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 5:55 PM |
| quote:
:Originally posted by Sharn Inquisitor
So, I've got a player in my group who despite his good intentions frequently seems to lose his cool and do something nonoptimal in regards to alignment. He currently has a paladin, and while LG can lose his temper/cool and be really nasty sometimes, IMO stretching to the realm of evil alignments. What do I do?
Paladin's are easier to deal with than most other characters that act out of alignment. That whole fall from grace thing should keep most Paladin's in line. If he falls from grace once, then attonement will help him get back in with his diety. A second fall from grace, that should be quite a bit harder, most of the D&D gods are that forgiving.
I play a neutral good character that has one "evil" tendency that I really have to watch to make sure it doesn't go too far. He is Vengeful. I know that if it goes too far, he will change alignment. | |
"Are you not entertained?" 
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/26/2006 5:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
(not Acceptable)
The CN barbarian has capture a goblin scout who has important information. The PC does not bother with an Intimadate check. The player tells the DM that he is going to strip him nake and hang him upside down from his ankles. He then treatens to castrates the goblin with a pair of bolt cutters. After getting the information he goes ahead and castrates the goblin. He then cut the goblins tounge out and leave him hung upside down to blead to death.
I agree that that is a very evil act, but it is within the scope of what a chaotic neutral character could do. Someone that is choatic neutral is capable of doing almost anything. From running into burning orphanage to save a child to setting the orphanage on fire in the first place just to see it burn.
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/26/2006 11:45 PM |
| D&D alignment is far from an exact science, but there are guidelines that many people ignore, have not seen, or do not rememeber. Many people rely upon their gut understanding of alignment, without doing the bookwork to understand the offical guidelines for alignment.
Before posting on an alignment thread, I encourage people to reread the alignment section in the 3.5 PHB. I think that a quick read through the descriptions for the individual alignments, as well as a review on the discussion of law vs. chaos and good vs. evil would help minimize some of these disagreements ...
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Oni
Underboss
1131 Posts
| | 01/27/2006 2:27 AM |
| | If he is doing evil things you just can't let it slide. I am very hard on my paladins. There are a lot of options out there for fallen paladins I would show acouple to him, and ask if he likes any of them. If not then tell him to shape up. | |
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Champion of the Nymph!
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 01/27/2006 5:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
(not Acceptable)
The CN barbarian has capture a goblin scout who has important information. The PC does not bother with an Intimadate check. The player tells the DM that he is going to strip him nake and hang him upside down from his ankles. He then treatens to castrates the goblin with a pair of bolt cutters. After getting the information he goes ahead and castrates the goblin. He then cut the goblins tounge out and leave him hung upside down to blead to death.
I agree that that is a very evil act, but it is within the scope of what a chaotic neutral character could do. Someone that is choatic neutral is capable of doing almost anything. From running into burning orphanage to save a child to setting the orphanage on fire in the first place just to see it burn.
I could not disagree more.
Just because he is chotic an capible of act of violence does not give him a free pass. There is no motivation in this situation to explain his action. There was no need for his behaviour as he already had the information. The true violence and cruity was motivatied be sadism and cruity. The PC is not insane and even if he was I would still consider it evil. Evil must be based on your actions. If you do truly evil acts then you are evil.
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 01/27/2006 1:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
quote:
Originally posted by Sharn Inquisitor
So, I've got a player in my group who despite his good intentions frequently seems to lose his cool and do something nonoptimal in regards to alignment. He currently has a paladin, and while LG can lose his temper/cool and be really nasty sometimes, IMO stretching to the realm of evil alignments. What do I do?
Well, I can ABSOLUTELY see a paladin losing their temper. I can even see a Paladin acting a way that might be considered by some to be "evil."
I play in Eberron though, where alignments are used more to describe personality than explicit behavior.
For example, the Silver Flame is a "Good & Righteous Church." Wee. They have paladins. These paladins can be lawful good. The teaching of this Church is that lycanthropes and their ilk are evil, and must be destroyed. This dogmatism (which makes for awesome drama) leads to stereotypical exaggerations, and behavior that might be considered evil. Attacking an otherwise peaceful shifter on sight and "sending him to meet the Flame," is a decidedly "evil" action to some. The church also feeds the poor, helps the homeless, kisses babies, and does a TON of lawful good things. Paladins will also do those things. Remember both the terms "lawful" and "good" are subject to relativistic interpretations. In the case of a Paladin they're following the "Law" of the church (kill all the shifters, they're evil spawns of demons), and their acting in accordance with what their entire background tells them is "good" (you're making the world safer for everyone.
Some people don't like relative interpretations of alignments. That's okay, it's just too abstract of a concept for some games to manage effectively. I LOVE the tension and drama it creates, and the psychology of rationalization is fascinating to me, so I allow it.
I could easily see a Paladin being overcome with righteous anger and doing something stupid. If he makes habit of it, it may be time to shift his alignment, or have the church reign him in.
If he engages in a lot of actions that are not considered either "lawful" or "good" by his church, then I'd consider some intervention there as wel.
I play in Eberron too, and this is where some of the problem arises. Clearly, Paladins are tougher to adjucate than I initially anticipated. I read the Eberron book Marked for Death and got a cold glimpse into the Church of the SF and it's templars. | | | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 01/27/2006 1:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
I really like Kiddoc's explanation of it. I actually just finished the Ebrron book "Marked for Death." It's a great way of seeing the paladin attitude because there are about four of them gathered together and they constantly have conflicts between what makes sense and what's "good."
I would like to correct Kiddoc a little bit. The Silver Flame does not look upon shifters with the "kill them all" attitude. They tend to look down upon them, but not with the same attitude as they do true lycanthropes, so a Silver Flame paladin carving his way through every shifter he meets will soon find himself in a lot of trouble.
Agreed. Marked for Death absolutely shows the paradox that exists between a Paladin's duty and what may be perceived as right and wrong to everyday citizens. I'm excited for f/u novels in that series of novels. | | | |
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 01/29/2006 8:06 PM |
| Well those alignment issues are pretty common but as master you should keep in mind something that eberron states.
Character are not lineal, sometimes you could be helped by a Evil Characters and sometimes could be stopped to save the world because a paladin that defend an ideology. A paladin could make mistakes and have personality flaws like pride, and Being evil is not wrong but is selfish, evil character that do evil things for fun are just stupid evil measn selfishness and a different way of seem the world.
If you have issues about alignemnt you should consider to give advice to the character, and in some time when enough actions have taken change the alignment... this could become really anoying for paladins and monks because they lose some of their abilities, for other characters could be nothing... but remember that the alignment prevent from many things! like enter in a anti-chaotic place or whatever... Alignment is in the soul! THAT COULD BE CHANGED! | |
Knight of the Quori
Champion of King Kaius III of Karrnath
 Purple Knight of Venezuela
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hazel monday
Warrior
338 Posts
Baltimore MD
| | 01/29/2006 8:11 PM |
| have you considered eliminating alignment altogether? it really does,nt change the game all that much.
detect evil becomes detect hostile intent.
smite evil becomes smite enemy.
and so on.
evil becomes something that characters do, rather than something that they intrinsically are. | |
Champion of Phanatons. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 10:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sharn Inquisitor
I play in Eberron too, and this is where some of the problem arises. Clearly, Paladins are tougher to adjucate than I initially anticipated. I read the Eberron book Marked for Death and got a cold glimpse into the Church of the SF and it's templars.
I agree one of the major players in the LG church of the silver falme is a LE cleric(high cardinal Krozen).He believes in his religion to the point he will do anything he deems neccesary to advance his goals and that of the silver flame and part of that is for him to keep his power also by any means neccesary without ruining his image to the general population. I think of him bit like Cardinal Richelieu in the musketeer movies.
If you like the Eberron novels, try the orb of xiorat and the binding stone. Both are very good and show off the Eberron setting really well. IMO both authors have done their homework on the campaign setting. | | | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 01/30/2006 11:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
(not Acceptable)
The CN barbarian has capture a goblin scout who has important information. The PC does not bother with an Intimadate check. The player tells the DM that he is going to strip him nake and hang him upside down from his ankles. He then treatens to castrates the goblin with a pair of bolt cutters. After getting the information he goes ahead and castrates the goblin. He then cut the goblins tounge out and leave him hung upside down to blead to death.
I agree that that is a very evil act, but it is within the scope of what a chaotic neutral character could do. Someone that is choatic neutral is capable of doing almost anything. From running into burning orphanage to save a child to setting the orphanage on fire in the first place just to see it burn.
I could not disagree more.
Just because he is chotic an capible of act of violence does not give him a free pass. There is no motivation in this situation to explain his action. There was no need for his behaviour as he already had the information. The true violence and cruity was motivatied be sadism and cruity. The PC is not insane and even if he was I would still consider it evil. Evil must be based on your actions. If you do truly evil acts then you are evil.
I agree with orcdoubleax. If I were DM'ing this player, that CN barbarian would now be CE. It's true that nothing (including alignment) is stopping pc's from doing what they want but there are consequences. Evil acts cause an alignment shift, period. | |
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Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 12:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I agree with orcdoubleax. If I were DM'ing this player, that CN barbarian would now be CE. It's true that nothing (including alignment) is stopping pc's from doing what they want but there are consequences. Evil acts cause an alignment shift, period.
Oh I agree with you that the barbarian would probably be shifting to chaotic evil. But one evil act, no matter how dispicable shouldn't be enough to change alignment, otherwise the paladin the question was originally about would shift to evil and be beyond redemption. (although going to blackguard would be an option.) | |
"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 9:52 PM |
| For ease of use, I tend to shunt the alignment grid 45 degrees clockwise (LG on top CE on the bottom) From this angle i then look at it like this:
The closer to the top of the scale you are, the more you care about other people.
The farther to the left of the scale, the more you care about peoples actions
The farther to the right of the scale, the more you care about peoples welfare
The farther to the bottom of the scale, the more you care about yourself.
By this standard, The LG paladin is selfless and concerned equally by peoples actions and welfare.
The LE character cares little of other peoples welfare but is deeply concerned by their actions, which he wants to make benefit himself as much as possible
The CG character doesn't worry too much about what other people do, just so long as they benifit the majority of people
The CE character is selfish to the core and if scorned by someone will not hesitate to go after them. He is concerned about peoples actions but only so far as to how those actions affect him. He wants to know about the welfare of others, but only so that he knows where the next meal he is going to steal comes from. | |
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 02/01/2006 1:33 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by hazel monday
have you considered eliminating alignment altogether? it really does,nt change the game all that much.
detect evil becomes detect hostile intent.
smite evil becomes smite enemy.
and so on.
evil becomes something that characters do, rather than something that they intrinsically are.
That´s something a friend of mine propposed, because he likes to play without alignment in the Character Sheet (more because other peoples eyesdrop the aligment and takes advantage of that) that something that the master should know and no lineal.
By my side i don´t like this idea, i think that characters are ruled by a way in their lives, because their ideollogy or their soul tend to something, Some likes to serve and keep an order so they are lawful, some have a call to help people to do good things they become good, some are selfish and don´t care about others just them and their interest they become evil, and people that cannot stand a order for more than a while and cannot follow rules is Chaotic; humans tend to be in the middle being good in some moments and evils at other, following an ideal order and changing of ideas making a revolution of ideas.
Nobody is strongly tied to alignment but a drastical change could mean a internal trouble and even psicological and mental conflicts, like a good paladin killing childrens because there is the anti christ or a evil character that helps to save people from a terrible thing... if you think for a while... they begin conflict inside them maybe asking "What i´m doing? What i am?"
(Vader [:D]) | |
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Champion of King Kaius III of Karrnath
Purple Knight of Venezuela
Venezuelan Site For D&D minis Calabozo Criollo Venezuela
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 02/01/2006 3:56 AM |
| I was thinking about getting rid of alignment.
I have already change detect evil/good/chaos and law anyway.
Detect evil for example will not work on an evil fighter or an orc. It works with evil outsiders or other powerful evil creatures or people that have dedicated themselves to evil outsiders or gods. Basically it would detect demons,devils,evil prist, cultist etc.
Detect good would work the same way.
I did this to prevent the players from picking out evil masterminds from a crowd. It had nothing to do with alignment. It does however make it easy to change the alignment situation.
I would still have good and evil, but just as general concepts not for pc or npc. Only the powerful forces would be good or evil. The mortal races would be motivated by thier personality.
I was thinking of giving the player 10 scales to create thier personality.
they would be scored from 5-0-5 for example
Charity 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 Greed
Compasion 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 Cruity
This would have no in game effect except to help the PC create in their mind a more complete image of who thier character is an how he/she is motivated. Players would be free to choose 0 in some categories, but would have to have a min total score of at least 10.
(Just to be clear there is no neg numbers on this scale both sides are positive)
My problem is coming up with the ten scales to give a good overview of a personality. | |
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 02/01/2006 4:09 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
Cruity
What does Cruity mean? | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 02/01/2006 6:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
Cruity
What does Cruity mean?
Don't complain. I have dyslexia.
So I spell a few words wrong. It didn't stop me from graduating University with Honors or doing well in my Job for the last ten years.
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Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 02/01/2006 7:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
Cruity
What does Cruity mean?
Don't complain. I have dyslexia.
So I spell a few words wrong. It didn't stop me from graduating University with Honors or doing well in my Job for the last ten years.
I think I know Corim well enough to know he wasn't making for of you. Was that your concern?
Getting back on topic, I believe the D20 Modern game has an alignment system where you pick a couple of general alignment "leanings" for your character. You don't pick a specific one like LG or CE, but your choices are more like personality traits that affect your PC's outlook on life. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Jefftyjeffjeff
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 02/01/2006 1:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcdoubleax
My problem is coming up with the ten scales to give a good overview of a personality.
You might want to look at a couple of games that have done something similar:
Fading Suns has a few sliding scales such as Introvert/Extravert, and Human/Alien that give you distinct in-game bonuses and penalties. You don't have to choose where you'll be on the scales, your character's behavior slides him or her around accordingly.
Pendragon has a bunch of the kinds of character traits you're describing, and a fairly nifty d20-ish mechanic to boot. Traits are prescriptive rather than descriptive in Pendragon (i.e., they tell you how the character is instead of describing what the character does).
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Jeff Quick, Philadelphia
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