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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
    
 | | 01/30/2006 10:14 PM |
| So we started our new campaign and things got off rather nicely. The players did a good job of role-playing meeting each other and their initial time spent in town was productive. Then they had one combat encounter and the following happened:
1.) Things slowed way down
2.) The players stopped role-playing
The combat basically took the rest of our somewhat short (~2.5 hours) session. I'm wondering if you all (players and DMs alike) could go over some general strategies to keep combat moving along and keep up the role-playing while doing so. The main issue is that the players go from being very descriptive of their actions and mood to saying "I hit him with my sword/mace/etc." As pointed out in a recent Design&Development article on the WoTC website, combat has the unfortunate drawback of forcing players to take turns, during which time any one player spends around 75+% of the time waiting. Slipping out of character or other distractions ensue...plus some players have a tendency to kibitz or "coach" each other's actions out of character. Granted my group has a couple pretty new players, but maybe I need to prohibit out of character speech during combat. What do you think? | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 10:25 PM |
| Oh Wildmage, a topic near and dear to my heart, as my excellent group of roleplayers totally fell apart this weekend.
I have some real thinkers and excellent strategists, so they tend to take their time during combat--which is okay. I'll usually call them on it after 10 seconds or so. A little social pressure goes a long way. If a gentle prodding doesn't work, I'll give them about another 5 seconds and then I'll tell them to "Act, or else." Use it or lose it can be a scary concept for players trying to make the most out of a tough combat.
I agree that even good roleplayers tend to lose a little bit in a pitched battle. I've tried to encourage them to describe their actions a little better by doing so myself (you'd be surprised just how quickly our descriptions go to crap when we have 30 creatures to control), by giving examples, and by complementing and pointing out players doing a good job.
Still, we all have a long way to go. I'm considering adding a little incentive to it in a few sessions. Give me a sentence description besides just "I attack" or your action is forfeit. I'll be pretty forgiving on it at first, but the behaviorist in me tells me that if I make it a priority, I have to treat it like one or they won't do it.
Anyhow, I have the most work to do there myself. The better I get at it, the more power I'll have to remind and push them to keep up with it. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 10:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wildmage
maybe I need to prohibit out of character speech during combat. What do you think?
The only downside to doing so, IMO, is that D&D combat is tactically intense, and if you penalize tactically-obtuse players -- who may very well be playing tactical-genius characters -- from getting advice, you run the very real risk of intimidating players out of the game. I've seen it happen on multiple occasions.
One compromise I think would work is, "No OOC chatter during combat unless someone specifically asks for tactical advice." | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 11:15 PM |
| IME, this is a very common problem. I've become pretty strict with my PCs when it comes to combat. As you say, it can be slow and tedious at times.
Here's a few things that I do:
Prepare:
-I've reduced the number of encounters in some of my adventures. I try to make each encounter both challenging and interesting (in some way new and different). I use fewer random encounters because they're often boring. If I plan to use them, I often preroll them and put something together ahead of time. Granted I'll oftentimes have to adapt on the fly to prevent railroading my players, but I find encounters go better for everyone when I'm not digging through the books (i.e. "Now what were the stats for a troll skeleton again..."
-Try to devise a strategy ahead of time for how the bad guys would most effectively attack a group of PCs, when they would retreat, etc.
-Have the monsters stats, spells, etc. ready to go and in a format that you can quickly understand.
-Pre-roll a bunch of common dice (d20s) and have them on listed on a pad of paper. Work your way down the list as you need them. The eletronic dice roller on the D&D website works great for this if you work off of a computer.
-Review the combat rules regularly, especially the rules for grappling, bull rushing, disarms, sunder, etc. so you don't ever have to look those rules up mid-combat.
-Encourage your players to discuss strategy and tactics ahead of time. This will help the tactically slower players benefit from the quicker ones.
Keep things moving:
-With the 75% in combat downtime you mentioned, try to have the players thinking of what they want to do ahead of time. If they have to look up a spell or something, they better be done with it by the time it rolls around to being their turn.
-Discourage off-topic chatter. I now diable my wireless router when gaming because some players would get distracted, instant message eachother, etc. It was really annoying.
-Don't let them take 10 minutes to decide what they are doing. Give them a few seconds, give them a warning, and then tell them their character hesitated too much an lost his/her turn. I know this sounds really harsh (I'd be careful about doing this if the players are losing an encounter), but once the players understand that they have to *act* or get off the pot, they'll hesitate much less.
-Be organized: for each combat I make a table of the initiative order listing each PC or monster in a row across the top of the page. I then have each row of the page represent 1 round of combat. You can keep track of monster hp, when spell durations run out (just go down 1 row per round of duration and note it on the round the spell wears off), barbarian rage (ditto), special conditions, etc. There are a lot of great tips for stuff like this on the sidebars of the DMG.
Good luck. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 11:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
Oh Wildmage, a topic near and dear to my heart, as my excellent group of roleplayers totally fell apart this weekend.
I have some real thinkers and excellent strategists, so they tend to take their time during combat--which is okay. I'll usually call them on it after 10 seconds or so. A little social pressure goes a long way. If a gentle prodding doesn't work, I'll give them about another 5 seconds and then I'll tell them to "Act, or else." Use it or lose it can be a scary concept for players trying to make the most out of a tough combat.
I agree that even good roleplayers tend to lose a little bit in a pitched battle. I've tried to encourage them to describe their actions a little better by doing so myself (you'd be surprised just how quickly our descriptions go to crap when we have 30 creatures to control), by giving examples, and by complementing and pointing out players doing a good job.
Still, we all have a long way to go. I'm considering adding a little incentive to it in a few sessions. Give me a sentence description besides just "I attack" or your action is forfeit. I'll be pretty forgiving on it at first, but the behaviorist in me tells me that if I make it a priority, I have to treat it like one or they won't do it.
Anyhow, I have the most work to do there myself. The better I get at it, the more power I'll have to remind and push them to keep up with it.
Q: You want better focus and more attention from your players?
A: Get rid of the chick cooking food and making drinks.
Seriously ... remember at least one of our number took a small break (but he's playing a small character, so it works) because of the over-abundance of food and drink.
I'm trying to be better about providing a 1-3 sentence description ... but I admit I was more focused and capable early in the evening ... | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 11:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
Oh Wildmage, a topic near and dear to my heart, as my excellent group of roleplayers totally fell apart this weekend.
I have some real thinkers and excellent strategists, so they tend to take their time during combat--which is okay. I'll usually call them on it after 10 seconds or so. A little social pressure goes a long way. If a gentle prodding doesn't work, I'll give them about another 5 seconds and then I'll tell them to "Act, or else." Use it or lose it can be a scary concept for players trying to make the most out of a tough combat.
I agree that even good roleplayers tend to lose a little bit in a pitched battle. I've tried to encourage them to describe their actions a little better by doing so myself (you'd be surprised just how quickly our descriptions go to crap when we have 30 creatures to control), by giving examples, and by complementing and pointing out players doing a good job.
Still, we all have a long way to go. I'm considering adding a little incentive to it in a few sessions. Give me a sentence description besides just "I attack" or your action is forfeit. I'll be pretty forgiving on it at first, but the behaviorist in me tells me that if I make it a priority, I have to treat it like one or they won't do it.
Anyhow, I have the most work to do there myself. The better I get at it, the more power I'll have to remind and push them to keep up with it.
Q: You want better focus and more attention from your players?
A: Get rid of the chick cooking food and making drinks.
Seriously ... remember at least one of our number took a small break (but he's playing a small character, so it works) because of the over-abundance of food and drink.
I'm trying to be better about providing a 1-3 sentence description ... but I admit I was more focused and capable early in the evening ...
Good point. It caused me to develop Rule 1. Rule 0 is, of course, "The DM is always right."
Rule 1 = No access to alcohol within 50' of the gaming table.
I'm all for drinking during the game. But the libation station was literally 6 feet from the gaming table. Yikes. What a distraction. I'm a bigger fan of taking breaks together as a group, rather than having player scattered on mini-breaks all through the session. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
IHawk
Underboss
1054 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 01/30/2006 11:57 PM |
| No beer within 50' of the gaming table, what kinda game
are you really trying to play anyway.
But seriously, the first few sessions are going to be
tedious and frustrating for both the players and the DM.
They need to learn what You the DM expects from them. The
only way they are going to find out is if you let them
know either during or after the sessions are over. I prefer
after, just because it keeps things moving.
You need to learn what they expect from you. Are combats
going to be... OK your turn, roll good, next... or are the
combats more descriptive with the PC's actions actually
affecting the NPC's, not only by HP damage, but how the
NPC's are reacting (are they worried, astonished, etc.)
morale, affects on and use of surroundings, etc.
{i am trying to say, do they want bland or color or somewher
in between}
Also, sometimes the players need some time, you need to be
patient with them. I've sat at tables with pure veteran
powergamers who were all just stumped as to how to procede
in an encounter. Remember most all of us have jobs and real
world stuff that is going on in our heads and maybe every
character ability is jumping out at them. Obviously if this
is the rule more than the exception, then by all means...
start the countdown, up turns up!
Good luck
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 1:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I think the Spell Compendium with their little spell descriptions (fluff, not crunch) are great. I'm trying to come up with a few variant concepts for each spell I cast as well as make sure I describe what I'm doing
For my necrotheurge of Wee Jas, I created a list of very short prayers for my spells. So when I say, in my creepy Peter Lorre voice, "This gift She granted the Betrayer / 'You will live long,'" the other players know a bestow curse is hittin' the table. Whereas speak with dead is, "An she answers not for her sins in this life / She will in the next." I did it for the three or four cleric spells of each level that I use most often. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 01/31/2006 5:45 AM |
| I tend to do probably 3/4 of the description during combat for players. Depending on how new the players are.
New players need to be trained [)]
When they say 'I use my sword' You say 'Okay, you sword flashes through the air swiftly & {wait for roll} jabs through their (wait for roll) foot. Looks like you may have struck pinkie.'
Try to play with 'descriptive called shots'. This is harder with older players at first IMO. But unless deliberately stated, you or players can use more descriptive words to add flavour to actions. So after being stabbed in the pinkie, the guard responds with a brutal back hander across the face (wait for roll) that (waits for roll) knocks you reeling, the goblin responds with a groin shot, the zombie mindlessly swipes about the same place as last time. An environment where a player can say ‘I’m gonna stab the fragger in the throat for that’ and everyone knows it’s not a real called shot.
Think Matrix when you do action. Slowing down to that sort of freeze frame mentality suits my mentality well for descriptions. Or think of what’s happening in terms of comic book frames.
Make them feel like getting up and leaving is akin to walking out during a gun fight.
The players may take turns, but it’s always your turn.
Making initial foes easier (especially if new players to RPG’s) isn’t a bad tactic. It is easier for someone new to get excited and thus descriptive when you kill things in a blow. Not overmuch, but it does help to get them in the habit of doing it.
I don’t allow for over much tactical background noise. If they can discuss it while it’s someone else’s go in the spot fight I turn a blind eye, but they get one hurry on, typically ‘you have 30 seconds before your character decides to think about things this round’ and after that time I move on to next. Sometimes they are lucky enough for me to helpfully count this elapsing time down for them. [:)]
Players that are new, or are stumped when their character wouldn’t be I tell them to roll the appropriate stat check/DC (ie Int) for my to suggest something.
Drink breaks/munchies attacks annoy me. Smoke breaks far more so [V] At least with smoke breaks it’s regimented and at same time everyone tends to freshen up drinks etc. People stunned tend to do the drink getting thing too.
Tempo of fights is very important. You need to vary it fight to fight to keep players responding differently. But I’ve probably ranted enough [^]
| |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 01/31/2006 5:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
Oh Wildmage, a topic near and dear to my heart, as my excellent group of roleplayers totally fell apart this weekend.
I have some real thinkers and excellent strategists, so they tend to take their time during combat--which is okay. I'll usually call them on it after 10 seconds or so. A little social pressure goes a long way. If a gentle prodding doesn't work, I'll give them about another 5 seconds and then I'll tell them to "Act, or else." Use it or lose it can be a scary concept for players trying to make the most out of a tough combat.
I agree that even good roleplayers tend to lose a little bit in a pitched battle. I've tried to encourage them to describe their actions a little better by doing so myself (you'd be surprised just how quickly our descriptions go to crap when we have 30 creatures to control), by giving examples, and by complementing and pointing out players doing a good job.
Still, we all have a long way to go. I'm considering adding a little incentive to it in a few sessions. Give me a sentence description besides just "I attack" or your action is forfeit. I'll be pretty forgiving on it at first, but the behaviorist in me tells me that if I make it a priority, I have to treat it like one or they won't do it.
Anyhow, I have the most work to do there myself. The better I get at it, the more power I'll have to remind and push them to keep up with it.
Q: You want better focus and more attention from your players?
A: Get rid of the chick cooking food and making drinks.
Seriously ... remember at least one of our number took a small break (but he's playing a small character, so it works) because of the over-abundance of food and drink.
I'm trying to be better about providing a 1-3 sentence description ... but I admit I was more focused and capable early in the evening ...
What? You want to get rid of the RPGroupies!!! [)]
Self restraint with drink would be a better option :rolleyes:
| |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 6:42 AM |
| I typically give a PC around 30 seconds after his second call or he is getting skipped. Never broke the 30 seconds...yet.
I agree with Lab Moneky, et al. Being prepared is the key to good encounters and even better role play events. Even if you don't have time to prep to the nth degree of all the actions of every NPC in a combat situation you know what the bad guys over all goal are that is always a good motivational force.
I also have started to use 3x5 note cards to keep track of combat. I have noticed that it speeds up combat dramatically over the old matrix that I had. In saying that I am still keeping track of rounds and spell effects on s seperate sheet. This little change in organization has really sped things up and keeps things flowing.
As to the drama. Here is a typical scene from the table:
ME: River on 17
River: I am going to stab
ME: Roll it!
River: I got an 18!
ME: Hit!, "Side stepping the crushing blow River ducks in under the defense of the hideous creature and stabs at the soft underbelly. Black ichor rolls out of the wound."
ME: Flipping River's card over and reading the next name, "Kendrick on 11 prime."
This is a rated "G" edited version for all to read and me not to get into trouble
Also, during all the combats I am acting out the actions that I am calling out. Especially, on the monsters. Crushing blows I rasie my clipboard up above my head and act like I am slamming it down on a player's head. I also, use my hands for sprays of blood and or ichor from the wounds. Magic spells I make gestures with fingers outstretched, etc...
All in all if you can act it out then some of the players might get into it as well. Just a thought. This is what I do hope some of it helps.... | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 6:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
He said "no ACCESS to alcohol within 50'" ... not "no alcohol within 50'" ... an important distinction.
I don't know man. 50' is a long way. What about just having the booze on the table all the time. Then people don't have to move from the table to get it. I recommend shots of Cabot Tower Black Rum and a case of Moosehead. | |
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 01/31/2006 7:40 AM |
| Yup I'm in shock... its nothing but beer and prezels at my gaming table. Not all players drink, but the DM is not afraid of the odd one (heehee)plus it my place and the fridge is right beside the gaming table.
As for back on topic,I too have like a 30 second rule too make a move and I recommend most players too stay in character during. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 8:12 AM |
| Our DM (beyond being oh so dashing and handsome - going for the flattery XP bonus here) does a dandy job of describing the results of the player actions. We just need to get the players (myself included) more in-sync with describing our actions. Not "I swing with sword" but rather "I wait for an opening and then strike with a backhanded horizontal slash across his chest". I've got some stock sayings / prayers for the most often used spells but I need to work on the effects description.
Our monk is pretty good at, if he doesn't wax poetically on the description, at least giving us the WWF breakdown of how he's laying-out-the-smack. "Ok, let's see ... flurry of blows. This time it's right elbow, up with the left knee and then a crack across the jaw with a haymaker."
Still, the wives are getting way too into this. I secretly suspect they are plotting something in the background and intentionally slipping something into our in-game snackage. What does rufinol taste like anyway? | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 01/31/2006 8:24 AM |
| Asking for a lot of roleplay during combat unfortunatly doesn't make much sense. A combat round is 6 seconds, even if the fight goes 10 rounds how much can you realy interact when you're focused on fighting for your life.
Now if you're looking for more vivod descriptions of how they're attacking you could perhaps offer some obcentive to do so. Maybe a minor XP award or a situational to hit modifier for a particualrily good idea.
As for combat taking too long I suggest giving them gentle reminders at first and then if that doesn't work in speeding things up you can resort to penalities. Possibly reducing their order in initiative or maybe giving the monsters a free attack against them as they stand there deciding what to do.
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 01/31/2006 8:36 AM |
| "As for combat taking too long I suggest giving them gentle reminders at first and then if that doesn't work in speeding things up you can resort to penalities. Possibly reducing their order in initiative or maybe giving the monsters a free attack against them as they stand there deciding what to do"
You know what I have done that, yes it probably makes me a mean DM. But it did make the players want too think ahead within 30 seconds of their next move. | |
Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 9:36 AM |
| To me the more important roleplaying comes through the plot and interaction. Describing your actions piece by piece within combat is just fluff and color, and as long as one isnt metagaming (is that the right word) then I don't see a problem with them not roleplaying.
However with that said. I, as the DM, am usually the one to describe the players actions to them based on hit or miss situations.
Example situation: The players are on a small pillar (about 50x50) that is standing within a pool of Lava, They encounter a Fire Giant that is protecting the item that they were sent there to retrieve. For some reason the fighter has been missing a missing a lot. but the range has been plinking away since the outset.
ME: "The fire Giant notices your attacks and diverts his attention from the rest of the party and charges after you"
Fighter: "I make and Attack of Opportunity as he Charges away from me"
ME: "go ahead and roll"
Fighter: rolls a natural 20 (yeah only like the second attack he landed the entire fight)
Me: "As the Fire Giant charges away you quickly slice and manage to Hamstring the brute. He falls but his momentum causes him to slide and crash right into the Ranger (who was standing at the very ege of the pillar) and knocks the Ranger off of the endge (he failed the save)"
To me I enjoy color commentating their fight more than them roleplaying it. But that is just me. Sometimes it causes them to roleplay the combat, other times it does not. So really if you're having problems with speed and RP then take it upon yourself to RP for them and see where it goes! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 4:12 PM |
| My one rule of thumb is any time an unimportant NPC dies anywhere near a cliff, railing, etc., they must always fall off.
I call it the "Space Mutiny" rule.
Railing kill! | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 5:01 PM |
| Deputize someone to help keep things moving. In our large group I play the tactical warrior leader, and also keep track of init and duration effects for us for the DM and let everyone know who is on deck and in the hole to try and get them ready to act. Some of us KNOW our characters inside out and can just act them out without having to check stats or rules or odds, just do it. We then need to make a few rolls to see how well we did whatever we told the DM we were doing.
For example as few levels back we ended up fighting some river trolls right on the rivers edge. Well the combat was too crowded right on land near the troll for my character to swing at ground level, BUT, (and this is OA), I was in position to take a flying leaping jump past the troll and slash at him with my katana, so thats what I did. Now not being the wisest of characters (or smartest) I had failed to account for the what goes up must come down part of the equation and ended up a) getting a nice slash into the troll, b) getting missed by an AoO from the troll, c) flying past him a comforatble amount (rings of jumping are great for this), and d) having minimal movement class as a flying samurai slammed into a tree on the far side of the troll taking some damage (although far less than I did to Mr Troll). The troll which had been getting the upper hand, acted next and chose to retreat into the river after my display of bravado, heorism, dumb luck, whatever. Point was, I just figured out what I wanted to do and then figured out the results. Too often you find players trying to optimize the percentages and take the best option, and that will slow down things a lot. Just do what the character would do, in the heat of battle you do not always make the BEST choice, but you should at least make a choice. | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 11:42 PM |
| | Thanks for all the great posts. Always nice to learn from the combined experience of others and help accelerate my group's growth and enjoyment. I had done a fair amount of preparation (there's always room for more, just not always time!) but I wasn't prepared for actually dealing with my players and their reactions. Thanks again for the advice. | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
(There's just so much roleplaying to be done with a large skeletal snake!) | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 02/01/2006 12:30 AM |
| Heres some simple tips to speed things up and boost roleplaying:
Put a name plate in front of each player. enforce players to use the character names rather than saying "hey cleric" or "Elliot go for a flanking attack"
Pawn off initiative to a player. This REALLY speeds things up. Have a stack of index cards with character names on and then some with "baddie group 1" "Baddie group 2" and "Baddie leader", etc. Its one less thing the DM has to track and control.
Less is more: if your time crunched, use less monsters. 4 goblin rogue lvl 2 runs quicker than 12 goblin warrior lvl 1. This is especially true for encounters with quirky abilities, and spell casters.
Have them plan out tactics in advance. Its almost always 1 or 2 players that slow things down with trying to figure out what to do. Help them with attack plans. Also have the group coordinate before hand. It will speed things up in the long run. Offer a XP bonus for tactics. for example after each battle give them a tiny amount of XP (rate them 1 to 5 and multiply the number by 10 x PC level) Even a simple reward like that will have them motivated.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 02/01/2006 1:05 AM |
| We have not had a "dry game" in a while. My wife has been bringing a bottle of wine to the game and there are usually a few 6 packs of stuff like Guiness Extra Stout, Mike's Hard Lemonaid, or something like that around. My only mistake was the small bottle of Bacardi 151 that I brought to one game a few weeks ago. Wow... I felt that one in the morning.
Usually though, everyone has one or two drinks over the course of a few hours and everyone has fun.
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"Are you not entertained?" 
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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