Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
    
New York
 | | 01/31/2006 8:12 AM |
| I'm at work and dont have my books..but since I am at work I'll occupy myself by fielding this question.
I just got an e-mail from one of my players. They just found a big heap of treasure and hes been shopping aound in the DMG for what hes gonna buy when next we play.
He decided hed like to pay to have Mage Armor cast on him and follow it up with Permanancy.
Heres my question..He said in the spell description there is a list of spells that can be made permanent..Mage Armor isnt one of them.
But then it says others spells are at the DM's discression.
Why do you think Mage Armor isnt on the list?? Is there a good reason. Is it unbalancing? Would you allow it?
Thanks. | |
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Custom Title
WakeXX
Warlord
10152 Posts
Edinboro PA
| | 01/31/2006 8:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
I'm at work and dont have my books..but since I am at work I'll occupy myself by fielding this question.
I just got an e-mail from one of my players. They just found a big heap of treasure and hes been shopping aound in the DMG for what hes gonna buy when next we play.
He decided hed like to pay to have Mage Armor cast on him and follow it up with Permanancy.
Heres my question..He said in the spell description there is a list of spells that can be made permanent..Mage Armor isnt one of them.
But then it says others spells are at the DM's discression.
Why do you think Mage Armor isnt on the list?? Is there a good reason. Is it unbalancing? Would you allow it?
Thanks.
I'd allow it,I don't think it would be more unbalancing than say items than boost the AC currently. | | | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 01/31/2006 8:27 AM |
| | What is his current Armor bonus? What is his class? What level? Etc. It's probably more efficient to buy a Natural Armor bonus. | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 01/31/2006 8:31 AM |
| Hes a 4th Level Monk.
Hes wears Bracers of Armor +1...But I believe that all he wears in terms of armor. | |
Champion of the Skulk
Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 9:11 AM |
| Well, AC can be bumped up by a LOT of items. Also, the spells that can be made Permanent mostly focus on Divination-style sensory effects or Transmutations like Enlarge. I guess they thought that defensive spells were unbalancing.
Just tell him to buy his Wizard buddy a Wand of Mage Armor. It's cheaper. [:D]
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 9:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Just tell him to buy his Wizard buddy a Wand of Mage Armor. It's cheaper.
Especially after he experiences the joy of his first dispel magic.Poof. "Whaddaya mean, permanency isn't actually 'permanent'?"
Monte Cook has addressed the wherefores of the way permanency at some length on his website, I believe. I can't remember the rationale for such a restrictive list, and he does advocate widening it somewhat, but I do remember that the reasoning seemed pretty good to me. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 01/31/2006 9:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Just tell him to buy his Wizard buddy a Wand of Mage Armor. It's cheaper.
Especially after he experiences the joy of his first dispel magic.Poof. "Whaddaya mean, permanency isn't actually 'permanent'?"
I was thinking the exact same thing. Good tactic to use if you're a sadistic SOB and what DM doesn't strive to be that at least once in awhile? | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 01/31/2006 9:41 AM |
| Thanks for your advice guys.
Much apreciated.
Your right about Dispell Magic...i guess my players are to low level for that spell to pop up so I didnt even think of that.
I'll suggest the wand. | |
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Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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Lady-Bast
Warrior
242 Posts
Central Illinois
| | 01/31/2006 10:13 AM |
| Look at the price of Bracers of Armor +4 (16,000). And even easier than a wand, just have him ask the wizard or sorcerer to cast the spell on him when they go into a dungeon. With a duration of 1 hour per level, it usually lasts an entire dungeon bashing session. A wand is a great idea, especially if you have easy recharging.
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1687 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 10:37 AM |
| | IMO, the harder part should be finding a 9th or 10th level mage willing to spend XP on a 3rd level monk. In the campaigns I'm in, it's tough finding even a 5th level caster who's willing to cast spells for us. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 10:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kestrel.ca
IMO, the harder part should be finding a 9th or 10th level mage willing to spend XP on a 3rd level monk. In the campaigns I'm in, it's tough finding even a 5th level caster who's willing to cast spells for us.
The standard price is 5 GP per exp point spent. The 9th level wizard would make 2500 GP for the 500 XP and then the 450 GP for spell casting. That is 2950 GP to get a first level spell cast on you permanently. Alot cheaper than the Bracers of Armor. Plus another 90 for the mage armor spell as well.
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/31/2006 11:31 AM |
| The other spells are not game-breaking, the only one from the list I would not allow is Enlarge. My PC Nezumi asked about Magic Bite and I would allow it on his claws or teeths
as they are natural weapons, I would also allow it on a Monk's fists. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 12:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
The other spells are not game-breaking, the only one from the list I would not allow is Enlarge. My PC Nezumi asked about Magic Bite and I would allow it on his claws or teeths
as they are natural weapons, I would also allow it on a Monk's fists.
I thought about that too, but a monk's fists become magical at 5th-ish level, so a Permanent Magic Fang would be a bit superfluous.
I think Permanency is largely supposed to be a convenience thing. Improve sensory capabilities, jazz up one's familiar, Enlarge a minion. Not intended to permanently buff in any significant way.
Now, if there were a *higher level* Premanency, the spell list could be expanded. But geez, a Permanent Bull's Strength would be out of control...
Dispel Magic *is* the Great Equalizer, though. Gives items an edge over Permanency.
JIM
aka kyrin
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/31/2006 3:05 PM |
| | Yes, blessed be Dispel Magic :) | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/31/2006 3:31 PM |
| The total price for a 9th level caster to cast mage armor and permanency is 3040 GP by the book guideline (90 for a 9th level mage armor, 2500 for the experience, 450 for the permanency spellcasting).
Allowing it to be permanently cast on a PC is not a game breaking problem, as it is relatively simple to get a few wands of mage armor, or a pair of bracers offering almost as much protection, even at a relatively low level. As the spell is dispellable, the significantly lower cost of having a permanent spell versus an item (cost $3K versus 16K) is acceptable.
However, in most of my campaign worlds, a wizard is not exactly a supermarket. Many will not work for 'certain types of people'. Others refuse to cast spells that 'drain' them (by using experience costs). Others have waiting list for item creation that take years to fill (especially as they must spend time making the item, as well as time recovering from the experience loss). Accordingly, when the PCs want something, it is often a long process to get it, and by the time they do ... they've somewhat outgrown it.
I advise DMs to consider the NPC wizard in question when this situation comes up. Is he greedy? Does he have the market cornered? Would his services be otherwise in demand? These are the types of things that might drive up the cost of an item. The DMG reflects a 'fair' cost for purchasing an item. It is not a shopping list ... and few sellers really want to settle for a fair price.
Accordingly, if I were DM, I'd have the wizard offer to permanently enchant the young adventurer for the 'cheap' price of 8,000 gold - half of what it'd cost to get an item. A good diplomacy check might talk him down a bit ... a bad one might result in a charm person spell and the PC deciding to pay 12K gp.
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/31/2006 3:41 PM |
| | That last part is pure genius js, it simplifies the matter and will make the PC's probably think twice about asking a Wizard or Sorceror again, mwhahahaha [}:)] | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 4:32 PM |
| Well the whole game balance is predicated on having magic relatively available for a price. The advantage of the permanent spells versus an item is that the spell does not take up an item slot. A way we found to get around the self only limits is by using the Ioun Stone of spell storing. It appears to treat the user of the stone as the caster of the spell, and once that is done, the NPC drops the Permanancy on the spell. Actually a better word would be extreme duration extender, rather than permanent. High enough level Dispel Magics will nuke permanent spells, but they are much harder to flush than normal spells.
The benefits of the spells versus items is not so much the spell effect itself, but the fact that the owner of the spell effect is now free to not worry about getting that spell recast everyday, so the memorization casters can focus on other spells. But in all seriousness, that is a very minor issue at the end of the day. Having a wizard with a bunch of extra 2nd level spells is highly irrelevant in most games when that already have 5th and higher level spells on tap. Most battles do not last that long to even remotely threaten to exhaust spell abilities.
I would not fear having them use hard won gold to in effect buy a temporary boost to abilities. One good dispel and as you said...poof. While if they were to buy and item of that effect, they would have that item "forever".
Our higher level group just suffered a sizeable number of spell losses along those lines. We were in area with continual dispel magical spell effects in place that increased in power by one level for every round you were in the area. Sure evened up the playing field for those of us whose power is based on stats and feats as opposed to be a pumped spell whore. | |
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mordantos
Underboss
1210 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 4:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kestrel.ca
In the campaigns I'm in, it's tough finding even a 5th level caster who's willing to cast spells for us.
I remember trying to convince a church elder to cast Continual Light on an object for my 1st level cleric, before we went out on a quest. Not easy when the elder is a PC from a higher level campaign the DM was also running and the player a right bastard ΖD] | | | |
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devasque
Sergeant
874 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 4:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
... a pumped spell whore.
Somehow that just is wrong [}:)] | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/31/2006 6:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Well the whole game balance is predicated on having magic relatively available for a price...
I strongly disagree with this concept.
The game works well regardless of how difficult it is to come by magic. I've seen great games where PCs could shop for anything they want at DMG prices, and games where the PCs had to spend 5 adventures in travel to get to a wizard that *might* be able to make the magic item they wanted. Both worked great ... Accordingly, I can't support the idea that the game is predicated on having magic relatively available for a price. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 6:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Well the whole game balance is predicated on having magic relatively available for a price...
I strongly disagree with this concept.
The game works well regardless of how difficult it is to come by magic. I've seen great games where PCs could shop for anything they want at DMG prices, and games where the PCs had to spend 5 adventures in travel to get to a wizard that *might* be able to make the magic item they wanted. Both worked great ... Accordingly, I can't support the idea that the game is predicated on having magic relatively available for a price.
I disagree with your disagreement. The CR system is predicated on the expected availability of magic in the core rules. If you change that availability, then you distort CRs increasingly as you go from 1-20.
The game can work with different levels of magic but when you change that from the default, there are other adjustments you have to make as well to maintain balance. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 01/31/2006 9:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Well the whole game balance is predicated on having magic relatively available for a price...
I strongly disagree with this concept.
The game works well regardless of how difficult it is to come by magic. I've seen great games where PCs could shop for anything they want at DMG prices, and games where the PCs had to spend 5 adventures in travel to get to a wizard that *might* be able to make the magic item they wanted. Both worked great ... Accordingly, I can't support the idea that the game is predicated on having magic relatively available for a price.
In the players handbook, where it goes over the price of having an NPC cast a spell for you, it does say that any spell where the total cost is over 3000 GP then it should not be generally available.
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Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/31/2006 11:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
...I disagree with your disagreement. The CR system is predicated on the expected availability of magic in the core rules. If you change that availability, then you distort CRs increasingly as you go from 1-20.
The game can work with different levels of magic but when you change that from the default, there are other adjustments you have to make as well to maintain balance.
I disagree with your disagreement with my disagreement. The availability of magic items is not a finite point in a spectrum ... it is a range. The game doesn't break down if the PCs have a few coins hanging around.
I'll point towards a Greyhawk game I played in at one point where my changeling (non-Eberron) sorcerer went 5+ levels without spending any cash on magic items ... and still was very effective. Also think of Tom's Dulf campaign where the PCs went to level 12 before having a chance to buy anything magical (and my druid had 2 magic items until level 9: a ring of protection +1 and some +4 bolts).
As you point out, you can make minor tweaks to make magic work. The game is not predicated on having an easy supply of magic. The game works just fine without an ample supply. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 02/01/2006 5:13 AM |
| Well if you look at the cost of a Permanency scroll (w/2000 exp incl.) it's 10,125gp, Not an unreasonable cost for a wizard to charge for the casting of such a spell.
I wouldn't be against having Mage Armor made permanent, but it is always at that CL. Even if it isn't dispelled early on, the chances will increase greatly at higher levels. | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1687 Posts
| | 02/01/2006 9:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
Hes a 4th Level Monk.
Hes wears Bracers of Armor +1...But I believe that all he wears in terms of armor.
I'm also 90% sure that Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor provide the same enhancement bonus and so would not stack. Just a small point to keep in mind. [:)] | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 02/01/2006 10:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kestrel.ca
quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
Hes a 4th Level Monk.
Hes wears Bracers of Armor +1...But I believe that all he wears in terms of armor.
I'm also 90% sure that Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor provide the same enhancement bonus and so would not stack. Just a small point to keep in mind. [:)]
You are correct they do NOT stack...So once he starts being the monk with mage armor on him all the time he will ditch the bracers. | |
Champion of the Skulk
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