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Subject: Help settling an argument...

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Sir Bozak The Damned
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Québec

02/02/2006 12:20 PM  
Me and two of my players were having a discussion last night about the number of attacks they can make with a Daisho ( Katana plus Wakizashi ) and a Lajatang ( Dual Blade ). Someone from here pointed me to the PH for the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat and we had both a French and an English PH on hand. They had their own view of the feat, and I had mine. None of them have the feat right now, only Two-Weapon Fighting And Weapon Focus on their weapon/s.

The feat descrption states: Allows the user to get a second attack with his secondary weapon. Here is where our views collided. I thought this was necessary for them to attack
4 times per round ( they are level 10 now...). I am using the Samurai as an example and using K for Katana and W for Wakizashi. His main weapon is the Katana.

His attacks without the feat ( my view ): K W K
His attacks with the feat ( my view ) : K W K ( W -5 BAB )( feat allows that second attack )

His attacks without the feat ( his view ) : K W K W
His attacks with the feat ( his view ) : K W K W ( W -5 BAB )( one extra strike )

I am sure this is obvious to most of you, so if someone could explain which way does it work, I would be quite grateful.

Also, if his way is correct, why would players EVER use a shield, as a non-magical shield
gives so little an AC bonus that seems ridiculous compared to using a two-handed weapon or two weapons. Thank you in advance.

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02/02/2006 12:59 PM  
Two Weapon fighting gives a single extra attack with the off hand. You are correct, your player is not.


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02/02/2006 1:04 PM  
I just typed a long post to answer this and accidentally deleted it.

The most attacks a character will ever get with a secondary weapon using the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat is two.

At BAB=6,
K W K W

At BAB=11,
K W K W K

At BAB=16,
K W K W K K

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02/02/2006 1:06 PM  
Without the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat,
there is only one attack with the secondary weapon, no matter what the BAB is.

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02/02/2006 1:56 PM  
One more clearification...

When the person has two weapon fighiting and improved two weapon fighting and they are at level 10:

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)


When they hit level 11:

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 12 (for two weapon fighting and third attack)


My current character is a two weapon fighting monster. At 12th level I usually make 6 attacks per round (boots of speed.) This is what I would look like if I used a Katana and Wakazashi.

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 12 (for two weapon fighting and third attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 2 (bonus attack form haste)

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02/02/2006 2:02 PM  
as you described your attacks

2 weapon fighting
K, K(-5 BAB), W
Improved 2 weapon Fighting
K, K(-5 BAB), W, W(-5 BAB)

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02/02/2006 2:03 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug

One more clearification...

When the person has two weapon fighiting and improved two weapon fighting and they are at level 10:

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)


When they hit level 11:

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 12 (for two weapon fighting and third attack)


My current character is a two weapon fighting monster. At 12th level I usually make 6 attacks per round (boots of speed.) This is what I would look like if I used a Katana and Wakazashi.

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 12 (for two weapon fighting and third attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 2 (bonus attack form haste)


you are correct

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Sir Bozak The Damned
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02/02/2006 2:35 PM  
Thank you for the overwhelming responses guys.Even with the feat, the primary weapon ( K ) takes a -5 for a second attack ? Is that only based on the BAB + -2 for two-weapon fighting or the same penalty as for the second W attack ? Without the next feat, the player cannot ever have a 6th "attack" also, I assume...

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02/02/2006 3:55 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned

Thank you for the overwhelming responses guys.Even with the feat, the primary weapon ( K ) takes a -5 for a second attack ? Is that only based on the BAB + -2 for two-weapon fighting or the same penalty as for the second W attack ? Without the next feat, the player cannot ever have a 6th "attack" also, I assume...



No matter what... the second attack you get when you have a base attack bonus of +6 is always at a -5. When you have a base attack bonus of +11, your second attack is at -5 and your third attack is at -10.


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02/02/2006 4:38 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
This is what I would look like if I used a Katana and Wakazashi.

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 12 (for two weapon fighting and third attack)

Is the Wakazahi a light weapon? if it is they you are right, if not then you have even more "-" to hit, the the number of attacks are correct.

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02/02/2006 6:08 PM  
The answer to this question is clearly spelled out in the PHB. I know I sound like a broken record, Bozak, but my advise about reading the PHB still stands. If you take a bit of time to read through the PHB, most of the questions you've asked on these boards will be answered.

However, here is an example that clarifies how this all works.

Example:

Bob is an elven ranger. He has a strength of 14.

Level 1: His only feat is weapon focus (long sword). He decidedes that he wants to attack with a longsword in one hand, and a dagger in his off hand. His full attack attack bonus is:

Longsword (BAB 1 + Strength 2 + Weapon Focus 1 - Two Weapon Penalty (no feat/off hand light/main hand) 4) = 0
Dagger (BAB 1 + Strength 2 - Two Weapon Penalty (no feat/off hand light/off hand) 8) = -5

Level 2: At level 2 he gains the two weapon fighting feat as a bonus feat. His BAB improves by 1. His new attack bonuses are:

Longsword (BAB 2 + Strength 2 + Weapon Focus 1 - Two Weapon Penalty 2) = 3
Dagger (BAB 2 + Strength 2 - Two Weapon Penalty 2) = 2

Level 6: When he finally reaches level 6, he gains the improved two weapon fighting feat as a bonus feat. His BAB has also improved to 6/1. His new attack bonuses are:

Longsword (BAB 6/1 + Strength 2 + Weapon Focus 1 - Two Weapon Penalty 2) = 7/2
Dagger (BAB 6/1 + Strength 2 - Two Weapon Penalty 2) = 6/1

However, if Bob had opted to take Barbarian at 6th level instead of ranger (ranger 5/barbarian 1), and had not otherwise acquired the improved two weapon fighting feat, his attacks would be as follows:

Longsword (BAB 6/1 + Strength 2 + Weapon Focus 1 - Two Weapon Penalty 2) = 7/2
Dagger (BAB 6 + Strength 2 - Two Weapon Penalty 2) = 6

Notice that he does not get the second attack with the dagger in his off hand without the improved two weapon fighting feat.

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02/02/2006 6:53 PM  
[quote]Originally posted by jgsugden

The answer to this question is clearly spelled out in the PHB. I know I sound like a broken record, Bozak, but my advise about reading the PHB still stands. If you take a bit of time to read through the PHB, most of the questions you've asked on these boards will be answered.

------

Grrrr ! Did you even READ my post js ??? Obviously NOT !

------

"Someone from here pointed me to the PH for the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat and we had both a French and an English PH on hand. They had their own view of the feat, and I had mine. None of them have the feat right now, only Two-Weapon Fighting And Weapon Focus on their weapon/s."

------

I think that clearly states that I read the PH and still wanted a confirmation from one of
the "nice" people on here. You are excluded from that list, of course, and by your own repetitive personal attacks on me. Your egoism and need to show your superiority is more than annoying js and I suggest this old saying to you: " If you have nothing nice to say, say NOTHING.".

This really made you look like an over-aggressive, power-hungry veteran compared to the nice folks like Corim Danex, nyjastul69, Maling Lug and spikegif who chose to help me NOT insult me.

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02/02/2006 7:07 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by spikegif

quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
This is what I would look like if I used a Katana and Wakazashi.

K (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
W (Total attack bonus - 2 (for two weapon fighting)
K (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
W (Total attack bonus - 7 (for two weapon fighting and second attack)
K (Total attack bonus - 12 (for two weapon fighting and third attack)

Is the Wakazahi a light weapon? if it is they you are right, if not then you have even more "-" to hit, the the number of attacks are correct.



Yes, a Wakizashi is considered a light weapon. I see the -5 for the second W hit, as it is
listed in the feat describtion that the attack is made at -5, but why is the second K hit
( primary weapon ) is also at -5. I suspect it is because of the BAB, but I am not entirely clear on that, Malin Lug.

My version would have been:

K Total BAB -2 ( Two-Weapon penalty )
W Total BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
K Second BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
W Second BAB -5 ( Improved Two Weapon Fighting penalty )

And At Level 11, With the Greater Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat )

K Total BAB -2 ( Two-Weapon penalty )
W Total BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
K Second BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
W Second BAB -5 ( Improved Two Weapon Fighting penalty )
K Third BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
W Third BAB -10 ( Greater Improved Two Weapon Fighting Penalty )

And that even at 4 normal attacks, the maximum was 7 strikes total, unless there is an Epic feat for this. Am I right ?



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02/02/2006 7:38 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned

My version would have been:

K Total BAB -2 ( Two-Weapon penalty )
W Total BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
K Second BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
W Second BAB -5 ( Improved Two Weapon Fighting penalty )

And At Level 11, With the Greater Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat )

K Total BAB -2 ( Two-Weapon penalty )
W Total BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
K Second BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
W Second BAB -5 ( Improved Two Weapon Fighting penalty )
K Third BAB -2 ( Two Weapon penalty )
W Third BAB -10 ( Greater Improved Two Weapon Fighting Penalty )

And that even at 4 normal attacks, the maximum was 7 strikes total, unless there is an Epic feat for this. Am I right ?

I think it would be better if you do not combine the 2 different weapons like you are. It will be confusing. Try it this way.

at Level 11 for a fighter class you have a BAB of 11. you have 3 attacks: +11, +6, +1.
Now if you add in your second weapon, considering you have the feats and weapons to give you the less penelity you now have the following.

Primary Attack
+9, +4, -1 (same as base attack with the -2)

Secondary Attack
+9, +4, -1 (if Greater 2weapon fighting)

Speed or haste will add another attack with your primary attack:
+9

so you get
Katana: +9,+9,+4,-1
Wakizashi: +9,+4,-1

I like to keep the weapons (hands) seperate as this causes less confusion for the player (I have had many players who just cannot follow this)

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02/02/2006 8:01 PM  
Wow, now that makes perfect sense spike, thanks a million. I will just print this topic and
highlight your post so my two argumentative players will see the truth. Same would apply to dual weapons, I assume...

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02/02/2006 8:37 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned

Wow, now that makes perfect sense spike, thanks a million. I will just print this topic and
highlight your post so my two argumentative players will see the truth. Same would apply to dual weapons, I assume...


Yes, dual weapons are basically the same as a normal weapon and light weapon in off-hand.

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02/02/2006 10:57 PM  
Thanks, like I thought, but it seems "some" people do not think asking a polite "what do you think" question is annoying and forcing people to answer. Yes, jsungden, this is against you, the only insulting person that posted on this thread just to spite me and make me look like a fool and force me to seek help elsewhere. Thanks to everyone that has helped me so far...such a shame a community is ruined buy one single individual. I already named all those I thank, except for ChistopherGrooves that just confirmed my theory.

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02/03/2006 2:09 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned

Thanks, like I thought, but it seems "some" people do not think asking a polite "what do you think" question is annoying and forcing people to answer. Yes, jsungden, this is against you, the only black-hearted person that posted on this thread just to spite me and make me look like a fool and force me to seek help elsewhere. Thanks to everyone that has helped me so far...such a shame a community is ruined buy one single individual. I already named all those I thank, except for ChistopherGrooves that just confirmed my theory.



Come on now... I am a very sarcastic person and have been known to poke fun at you once or twice. The answer to your question is spelled out pretty clearly in the players handbook. Take a look at the progression chart for the Fighter
Level 1 +1 BAB
Level 2 +2 BAB
Level 3 +3 BAB
Level 4 +4 BAB
Level 5 +5 BAB
Level 6 +6 / +1 BAB

That means that the Fighter gets one attack at +6 (plus bonuses) and a second attaack at +1 (plus bonuses) at sixth level.

I don't know, because I have never looked at the French version of the Player's handbook, but it really sounds like that is causing many more problems than it is worth. You would be much better off ditching it and sticking with an English version (you can obviously read English.) It will help you stop jgsugden from padding his post count by posting on your inquiries. [)]


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02/03/2006 3:00 AM  
I hereby volunteer jdsugden (and Malin Lug until I saw that smilee) to fork over the $$$ (or $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in Canadian currency) so that Sir Bozak can buy himself an English-Edition Players Handbook. [B)]

I mean, seriously, folks, what's the big deal here? Sir Bozak has made it pretty clear that he does not have access to (and is not likely to have access to) a PHB (3.5 English). Maybe they're not stocked in the average Quebecois bookstore. Maybe he doesn't want to shell out the cash to "upgrade" (gods know I'm still using 3.0 core books because I just don't have $100 to spend on thirty or so new pages' worth of material). Or maybe, for reasons known only to him, he actually prefers to have his questions answered by real-live people (maybe people he happens to like, maybe even people he considers **friends**) rather than just looking it up on a printed page.

Unless Sir Bozak's queries represent a significant drain on maxminis' resources, how about we refrain from picking at him unless he picks at us first?

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02/03/2006 9:00 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by dagonet

I hereby volunteer jdsugden (and Malin Lug until I saw that smilee) to fork over the $$$ (or $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in Canadian currency) so that Sir Bozak can buy himself an English-Edition Players Handbook. [B)]

I mean, seriously, folks, what's the big deal here? Sir Bozak has made it pretty clear that he does not have access to (and is not likely to have access to) a PHB (3.5 English). Maybe they're not stocked in the average Quebecois bookstore. Maybe he doesn't want to shell out the cash to "upgrade" (gods know I'm still using 3.0 core books because I just don't have $100 to spend on thirty or so new pages' worth of material). Or maybe, for reasons known only to him, he actually prefers to have his questions answered by real-live people (maybe people he happens to like, maybe even people he considers **friends**) rather than just looking it up on a printed page.

Unless Sir Bozak's queries represent a significant drain on maxminis' resources, how about we refrain from picking at him unless he picks at us first?




There's no need to work with the 3.0 book. The thirty pages you require can be found in the SRD.



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02/03/2006 10:56 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by dagonet

I hereby volunteer jdsugden (and Malin Lug until I saw that smilee) to fork over the $$$ (or $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in Canadian currency) so that Sir Bozak can buy himself an English-Edition Players Handbook. [B)]




I would be happy to TRADE a 3.5 English Player's Handbook for some minis... I am interested in Demons, Devils, and Giants. [:D] A new Player's Handbook is valued at $30.00.


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02/03/2006 12:13 PM  
Thanks devasque, I really do see at picking on me and I am actually ( I am sure I wrote this several times now ) waiting for one of my two players to buy an English PH ( 40% cheaper than a translation...) and trade mine for it. He/She saves money, I get all my books in the real language. I bought the PH in French first as I saw it in French. Only one hobby shop here plus a small library that ha a fe D&D french books like my 3.0 OA. Once I started collecting mins and I saw how mistranlated some monster names were, I went hunting for an MM, but in english. There is a big store in Montreal, which is about a one hour drive ( I have no permit ). Then, I ordered the DM from amazon.ca, I only had a friend's copy that I was borrowing. Oh, and malin lug, amazon lists the PH at about 20-25$ and I love my demons ;)

As devasque says, I do not believe that I am draining people voluntarily. Are my questions asked in an impolite manner ? I never wrote a "Someone answer me now *** !" in ANY of my topics and if some are too busy to answer me...I am pointing at jsungden here, then by all means do NOT post that I am an idiot for not looking in the PH, that I still
think is unclear regarding many issues. And yes, I am also trying to make some friends here. I go at it the worst possible wait, I conceded, but that is still my goal. If these questions are such a bother to most veterans, I will just email one of the polite members and ask them privately if maxminis no longer feels questions about rules on a D&D site are relevant...

And I am sure some are not JUST padding his post count, and their intentions are much darker than everyone but me can sense. Being his target helps sense it, I am not saying I have powers of divination. Hopefully, this thread will help people responding more politely to those that are only asking questions. I never knew that was a crime...

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02/03/2006 12:38 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned

Oh, and malin lug, amazon lists the PH at about 20-25$ and I love my demons ;)



Yeah, but for trade purposes, like minis, I'll go off of the retail value, not what you can get it for on discounts like Amazon or Ebay. I am one of those people that also uses Zenako's guide not Ebay. [:D]

quote:

And I am sure jsungden is not JUST padding his post count, his intentions are much darker than everyone but me can sense. Being his target helps sense it, I am not saying I have powers of divination. Hopefully, this thread will help people responding more politely to those that are only asking questions. I never knew that was a crime...



Don't take things as a personal attack on you... I really don't think that jsungden or anyone else is out to get you. You ask a lot of questions that seem really basic to people who don't have to use a poorly translated book.

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Québec

02/03/2006 1:44 PM  
Well, at least some people do not feel the need to say my questions are basic and insult
me, with the intention of making me look stupid and lazy...As devasque said, this is
supposed to be a helping tool, if you have no desire to answer my questions please do not. No one is holding a gun to your head...

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02/03/2006 5:30 PM  
Sir Bozak, for the personal attacks you have posted on this thread and your generally aggressive manner, your account has been locked and will not be reopened.

Yours sincerely,
Merric Blackman
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