MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
    
 | | 02/03/2006 12:54 AM |
| I was just looking over some of the minis stat cards and it suddenly occurs to me; what the heck are some creatures doing with the burrow ability? Agreed, just about any creature with limbs and mobility should be able to burrow if it wanted to, my problem is with the rate of burrow available to some creatures.
I can totally see how an Earth Elemental would have the ability to burrow and would most often use the ability to great effectiveness in combat, cause he's able to blend right in with the earth around him. But other creatures that would have to physically dig a hole and actually displace the materials from the ground where they're gonna be going... well that takes time to do. It just doesn't make any sense to me that a Blue Wymling for example would be able to dig a hole in the ground 20ft long in one round. A round is comparable to what like 6 seconds? A creature that actually has to physically dig through the earth when burrowing shouldn't be able to use the ability at such a high speed in my opinion, unless their known for being really uber powerful diggers like Umber Hulks and Bullets. The last thing I'd be tryin to do is dig a hole while someone is swingin a sword at me. Sure give certain creatures burrow, but make it at a speed that's believable like say 5 ft/rnd and it takes 2 rounds before being out of harms way from surface creatures, not something high enough to be used as a form of mobility during combat. | |
John
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 02/03/2006 1:11 AM |
| Well this was something confusing when i see the rules for Skirmish about burrow.
It is logical that characters with limbs and mobility could make a hole in the floor but it would take long time, lots of rounds. Characters that have burrow is because they have good capability (maybe magical) to go under the floor, For example the earth elemental is earth! so is easy to him dissolve in the earth and move the escense of the elemental; for animals and magical beast is and extreme ability to burrow at high speeds and move as a shark in the water like the ankek or the bulette. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 02/03/2006 1:22 AM |
| The only way burrow would work, in my opinion, is through magic. At least at the rate needed. The creature practically has to become ethereal and move right through the earth instead of digging in order to do it fast enough to be worthwhile in a combat setting.
Ankheg is a magical beast, so that would explain it (I assume the skirmish stats give him burrow). If the xorn is a magical beast, it makes sense, if an outsider maybe because he isn't quite in this dimension when moving, if an aberration there should be no burrowing. | |
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 1:23 AM |
| SO far it's just the Brass Dragon and the Blue Dragons that I'm having trouble justifying their burrowing speeds. I haven't looked much further beyond this into other creatures stats for fear that I'll end up with a real problem with some of them. I suppose I could just pass it off as though those types of Dragons are imbued with some sort of magic that allows them to burrow and meld in with the terrain that they inhabit. After all Dragons are magical creatures.
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John
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 9:28 AM |
| | I believe both Brass and Blue Dragons are desert dwelling dragons, right? Their burrow speed i believe is *supposed* to be in the sand, not regular earth. Plus, they have breath weapons to help [)] | | | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/03/2006 2:37 PM |
| Chalk it up to the irregularities of the magical worlds. Beholders float through nonmagical means. A fireball explodes, but doesn't have any force behind the explostion. Some creatures burrow through the ground as fast as a person walks.
The game is designed to be fun first, 'realistic' second. This is a place where the designers determined that realism was less fun than a fantastic approach. | |
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 3:21 PM |
| | Sorry guys! Reality got the best of me for a moment there. I'm all better now. | |
John
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 3:26 PM |
| | I'm with Jai on this one. I'd only let them burrow in sand. | |
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 02/06/2006 11:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
The game is designed to be fun first, 'realistic' second. This is a place where the designers determined that realism was less fun than a fantastic approach.
This is a nice quote about roleplaying games... and it is true... you play rol to escape reality... but with a sense of other reality. | |
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Champion of King Kaius III of Karrnath
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Pale Rider
Underboss
1023 Posts
London, Ontario, Canada
| | 02/06/2006 11:37 AM |
| | Heh. I just had one of my groups encounter a Blue Dragon wyrmling and they were freaking scared! It poped up in the middle of their camp using its burrow ability (and 2 PCs on watch both blew some easy Listen checks) and had them on the run. They nearly killed it but the wyrmling was smart enough to realize it was overmatched once the 2 fighters woke up and escaped through its entry tunnel. Of course now its gone off to tell 'mommy' about the nasty adventurer party. [}:)] It never occurred to me that the burrow ability was unrealistic! | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 12:01 PM |
| | Moles dig pretty fast through the earth, I don't know if its 20ft a second fast but its at a decent speed and they are no where near as strong as a dragon. That wyrmling still has a strength of 15ish which can lift alot, in the Draconomicon they explain how the body and horn of the Blue Dragon is made for burrowing etc. I mean Bugs Bunny can burrow to Albequrque and take a wrong turn there, so why not! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/06/2006 1:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Moles dig pretty fast through the earth, I don't know if its 20ft a second fast but its at a decent speed and they are no where near as strong as a dragon. That wyrmling still has a strength of 15ish which can lift alot, in the Draconomicon they explain how the body and horn of the Blue Dragon is made for burrowing etc. I mean Bugs Bunny can burrow to Albequrque and take a wrong turn there, so why not!
[Best Simpsons Comic Book Guy Voice]Excuse me, but Bugs Bunny is a character in an entirely different milieu. You can't compare a blue dragon to Bug's Bunny any more than you could compare a Star Trek phaser to a Babylon 5 PPG ... although the PPG is a far more realistic weapon.[/Best Simpsons Comic Book Guy Voice] | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/06/2006 1:56 PM |
| OK, I was curious.
A mole is 7 inches in length, on average. They are amongst the best burrowers in soil known to man. According to the same article that gave the length for the moles, moles dig at a rate of 12 to 15 feet per hour. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say a mole digs 15 feet per hour. 15 feet is 180 inches, which is ~25 times the mole's body length.
All blue dragons have a burrow speed of 20' (or 40' during a double move). A round is 6 seconds, so there are 600 rounds in an hour. If the dragon can burrow 40 feet in a round, they can burrow 24,000 feet in an hour.
A great wyrm blue dragon is an estimated 100 feet in length, while a wyrmling is probably only 5 feet in length.
The wyrmling is moving roughly 4800 times its body length per hour when burrowing at that speed (or 192 times faster than the mole). A great wyrm is moving roughly 240 times its body length per hour (or roughly 9.5 times faster than the mole).
Regardless of how you look at it, it doesn't seem like the burrowing of the dragons, etc ... can be entirely justified by natural explanations.
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 3:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
OK, I was curious.
A mole is 7 inches in length, on average. They are amongst the best burrowers in soil known to man. According to the same article that gave the length for the moles, moles dig at a rate of 12 to 15 feet per hour. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say a mole digs 15 feet per hour. 15 feet is 180 inches, which is ~25 times the mole's body length.
All blue dragons have a burrow speed of 20' (or 40' during a double move). A round is 6 seconds, so there are 600 rounds in an hour. If the dragon can burrow 40 feet in a round, they can burrow 24,000 feet in an hour.
A great wyrm blue dragon is an estimated 100 feet in length, while a wyrmling is probably only 5 feet in length.
The wyrmling is moving roughly 4800 times its body length per hour when burrowing at that speed (or 192 times faster than the mole). A great wyrm is moving roughly 240 times its body length per hour (or roughly 9.5 times faster than the mole).
Regardless of how you look at it, it doesn't seem like the burrowing of the dragons, etc ... can be entirely justified by natural explanations.
Dang it! Science and math win again! I'll get you Sir Isaac Newton! *shakes fist*
Ok well then I go back to my Bugs Bunny explanation, or better yet the There are no fire balls or beholders either so I dont mind explanation. Either one works. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 02/07/2006 3:10 AM |
| | Fantasy game design concepts and reality often don't quite mesh. Blue/Brass dragons are conceptualized as moving through the earth thus they get burrow. Picturing the Blue is easier for me since they can just melt corridors ahead of them with their breath weapons. In either case remember the suspension of disbelief...... | |
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Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 02/07/2006 7:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MackeyJ
Sorry guys! Reality got the best of me for a moment there. I'm all better now.
Trying to inject reality into D&D will drive you nuts every time. | |
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Elucidus
Skirmisher
30 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 10:11 AM |
| | I like the tremors explanation. Though the farting ones in the third movie was a little rediculous, even for me. | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 4:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Elucidus
I like the tremors explanation. Though the farting ones in the third movie was a little rediculous, even for me.
lol! The A$$blasters. I practically fell out of my chair laughing when they introduced those. | |
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