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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
    
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 02/12/2006 9:43 PM |
| | Later posters, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that natural attacks in 3.5 stand apart from weapon attacks- a creature/character has 1 primary natural attack (at full BAB plus bonuses), then all other natural attacks are considered secondary attacks and each one is at -5. So is your question really which natural attack is considered this character's primary attack? I think he/she gets to choose but I'm not sure. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 02/12/2006 10:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wildmage
Later posters, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that natural attacks in 3.5 stand apart from weapon attacks- a creature/character has 1 primary natural attack (at full BAB plus bonuses), then all other natural attacks are considered secondary attacks and each one is at -5. So is your question really which natural attack is considered this character's primary attack? I think he/she gets to choose but I'm not sure.
unless its specified in the description he/she/it gets to choose which is the primary.
And IIRC if someting has a natural slam attack then gets claws added the claws replace the slam attack, much like a weapon would replace the slam.
So in your example of a warforged Dragon disciple (I want the backstory on that one [:)]) it has its slam replace by a claw attack if it wants to so it might have claw/claw/bite or slam/claw/bite but not claw/claw/bite/slam.
You can have a weapon in one hand and replace a claw or slam attack with the weapon attack,at the negative modifiers. If your warforged had a longsword he could sword/claw/bite. If he gets mulitiple atacks from a high BAB he must choose which is his primary and that one gets the multi attack. A warforged DD with a BAB of +8 might look like this sword/sword/claw -5/bite -5, or claw/claw/sword-5/bite-5.
edit: whoops I forgot for a moment the second attack would be at -5 as well. So in that case I guess it wouldn't matter (in my example)what attack you picked as your primary. | | | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 02/12/2006 10:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Well, I really have several different questions.
And there's no reason why you couldn't take multi-attack to reduce those to -2, right?
correct taking the feat multiattack would reduce the penalties to -2. | | | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 02/12/2006 11:18 PM |
| So the actual specific rules don't prohibit a warforged becoming a Dragon Disciple. More on that and the backstory in a second ...
So, if this happens and I get a bite/claw/claw that's three natural attacks. I can interchange one of the claws for a slam, but the slam isn't in addition to the claw (ie, no raking with the claw, then following up with an elbow).
I can (since I have 3 natural attacks) take multi-attack so secondary natural attacks are only -2, not -5.
So I could, for instance ...
Armblade (BAB, BAB -5, BAB -10, etc. as primary progression), Claw (-2), Bite (-2) ... or swap the claw for a slam. Or, heck, if I wanted to use a shield I could just sneak in a secondary bite at -5 (-2 if multi-attack) and just hammer w/ the blade.
Backstory ...
So, a few things here. First, Kiddoc is running the game. Second, I'm not running the most efficient of characters. I am, however, putting in an inordinate amount of time into the character development. He's like a little piece of Warforged clay. Most of the other players showed up with a backstory, their own motivations, etc. I showed up with a mentality and amnesia. I'm enjoying building him completely based on the experiences of the game and being unhindered by an arbitrary backstory and I think Kiddoc uses me sometimes (currently and maybe more in the future) to help advance plot. Also not coming to the table with preconceptions about what I plan to do allows me to be a stable, calming influence ... and at a table of type-A personalities that's useful. (Kiddoc would probably cringe if he saw this; personality-types are his area and I'm sure to butcher the definitions)
Now, we've got the hyper-competitive characters. I'm a Warforged w/ Adamantine Plating and my AC is LOW for the party. I'm playing a Favored Soul, one of the lower-powered classes in the game (least powered?). I do, however, put in a ton of backstory and development. My thought is that he's going to balance the missions based on our strengths, etc. I could put all my efforts into the most efficient mathematical combinations ... and he'd balance to that. Instead, I try to do as much from the plot/story side as possible.
As it happens, his game deals with the draconic prophecy. With the amnesia the character has no idea of his forging, however I suspect (and the char as well at this point) that he's likely a very old warforged from Xendrik, back in the giant/dragon days. Player knowledge indicates that the current warforged were based on research/schema/etc. from Xendrik.
So, I write these little backstory pieces and make my in-game decisions as open as possible for Kiddoc to steer however he wants. I keep the party in line and the in-fighting down as much as possible. When the party fought a green dragon and Kiddoc had my character develop a reaction to it, I took Acid as the Favored Soul elemental resistance next level. Is that efficient? No, but it fits the story.
Right now I'm at a crossroads. By the time I take the next level I need to decide where I'll be around 9th ... and it all depends on what happens in the next few sessions. I have four potential paths:
Stay Favored Soul - 'cause why not
Dragon Samurai - 'cause I'm a minis player ... and dang-it that's cool
Dragonslayer - Maybe my reaction is severe and I hate dragons.
Dragon Disciple - Maybe dragons and the prophecy are/were really behind the whole origination of warforged in this little story; heck maybe the character is a reincarnation / soul-of-dragon-shoved-in-construct
Currently he's got me obsessed with this one little dragon statue ... and the char is having a physical reaction to it (starting to patina in the same fashion as the statue).
So, all the oddities aside ... the lack of arcane spells ... etc. I've got this character heavy into the main story line of the game. I'm not the main story, but I'm keeping things moving and trying to give Kiddoc as many fun little story things to play with.
And hey, next session my Warforged gets married ... hee hee hee ... another story there ...
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 02/12/2006 11:59 PM |
| quote:
Dragon Disciple - Maybe dragons and the prophecy are/were really behind the whole origination of warforged in this little story; heck maybe the character is a reincarnation / soul-of-dragon-shoved-in-construct
Or maybe the giants developed his type to help in the war against the dragons, or Quori.
In my opinion warforged are wide open especially an ancient one from Xen'drik. I am just interested in any odd classed warforged (its why I would like to see a darkwood druid warforged mini). There was a thread on WOTC abut a year ago,I think, talking about dragon disciple warforged it got heated on the side of "its impossible" but others postulated how they would do it.
but to continue:
quote:
So, if this happens and I get a bite/claw/claw that's three natural attacks. I can interchange one of the claws for a slam, but the slam isn't in addition to the claw (ie, no raking with the claw, then following up with an elbow).
I can (since I have 3 natural attacks) take multi-attack so secondary natural attacks are only -2, not -5.
So I could, for instance ...
Armblade (BAB, BAB -5, BAB -10, etc. as primary progression), Claw (-2), Bite (-2) ... or swap the claw for a slam. Or, heck, if I wanted to use a shield I could just sneak in a secondary bite at -5 (-2 if multi-attack) and just hammer
yes to all.
you can also take improved multiattack to get rid of the negative modifiers altogether.
You can also take improved natural attack to increase the damage on your bite or claw attacks.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 12:13 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by maijstral
quote:
Dragon Disciple - Maybe dragons and the prophecy are/were really behind the whole origination of warforged in this little story; heck maybe the character is a reincarnation / soul-of-dragon-shoved-in-construct
Or maybe the giants developed his type to help in the war against the dragons, or Quori.
In my opinion warforged are wide open especially an ancient one from Xen'drik. I am just interested in any odd classed warforged (its why I would like to see a darkwood druid warforged mini). There was a thread on WOTC abut a year ago,I think, talking about dragon disciple warforged it got heated on the side of "its impossible" but others postulated how they would do it.
The RAW certainly don't prohibit it ... and thus it comes down to story. Frankly, I'm a canvas for our DM.
Even the "wife" I've written into the story has a nebulous, unexplained connection also leading towards Xendrik and (something/whatever) for Kiddoc to use to drive his overall story. I just spend my time making sure there are enough hooks, ideas, etc. around the framework of the character's personality.
So, if I go this route I'll actually have two ... inconsistencies ... one against the letter of the rules (spontaneous divine instead of arcane spells) and one against the spirit (waforged w/ dragon heritage what????) ... but we'll see where things end up. I'm mostly torn between Dragon Slayer and Dragon Disciple ... but I'm going to wait and see where the story heads before making the decision.
I wish I could explain the backstory more ... but I don't know it. I know our overall story arc has to do with the draconic prophecy somehow and I know that the character is likely from Xendrik and that he has reactions to some dragons. My fate is in the DM's hands ...
Story wise though, there have been some pretty powerful little episodes. I'm impressed at the quality of the story thus far. Plenty of times it seems like another fun RPG ... exciting, interesting, engaging, etc. Others, the depth of some of the narrative and story are really pretty darn amazing. We've got a pretty good group. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 9:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
So, if this happens and I get a bite/claw/claw that's three natural attacks. I can interchange one of the claws for a slam, but the slam isn't in addition to the claw (ie, no raking with the claw, then following up with an elbow).
That's (sorta) correct. There's only one reason you need to be careful in exchanging the slam for one claw ... that's that usually a creature with one slam attack has it calculated as its primary weapon, which means at a higher attack bonus (i.e., without the -5 penalty of a secondary attack) and at a higher damage bonus (i.e., at x1.5 Strength bonus).
There's no reason not to allow mixing the attacks as long as you're sure to recalculate the slam as a secondary attack.
Also, a creature using manufactured weapons can, unless otherwise specified, only use one natural weapon in addition, and does so at normal penalties. (Usually the creature or class description that allows this will spell out which penalties to use, whether off-hand or secondary natural weapon penalties.) If it doesn't specify, I'd go with secondary weapon penalties. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 02/13/2006 12:21 PM |
| | I am just curious as to how a Warforged can fall in love and get married ? Political reasons ? I was under the impression they had very few human feelings, if any... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 2:23 PM |
| | FWIW I was checking through some books last night, and in at least one instance of looking at a template that added a slam attack to a creature with claws (the reverse of what you're doing, but still probably relevant) the single slam attack replaced both claw attacks in a full attack when used (greenbound troll, in Lost Empires of Faerun) - so, it could do either 2 claws + 1 bite, or 1 slam + 1 bite. | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 2:29 PM |
| | Not sure if I am fully correct here and have no sources to back me up at the moment, but I am almost sure without feats no stacking whatsoever happens. I know that natural attacks do not get secondary attacks from high BAB and I believe that this applies in other ways as well, making natural attacks work "as is." | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 2:40 PM |
| | Typically the slam attack takes up both claw attacks. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 02/13/2006 2:55 PM |
| | I think reezel is right, my friend played a Troll and could only attack once with a weapon ( low BAB ) or use all his natural attacks ( including rend, if applicable ) and the GM and I looked in the books and there seemed to be no natural progression for natural attacks, as monsters are made this way in the MM' however higher their HD's/BAB. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/13/2006 7:09 PM |
| Although not looking at this specific issue, I spent quite a bit of time in the various D&D books last year trying to figure out how WotC was using different combinations of attacks. Specifically, I was focusing on manufactured weapons used by creatures with claw and bite attacks, but based upon that research, my understanding of options for how a warforged dragon disciple with claw/bite/bite ability would be able to attack would be as follows:
Single attacks (standard action): Choose one:
Bite at Full BAB, normal strength damage
Two handed weapon attack at Full BAB, 1.5X strength damage
One handed weapon attack at Full BAB, normal strength damage
Slam at Full BAB, normal strength damage
One handed light weapon at Full BAB, 0.5X strength damage
Claw at (-5) BAB, 1/2 strength damage
In a full attack, the creature could:
1) Combine manufactured weapons with a bite, giving the weapons full BAB (subject to special rules like two weapon fighting) and strength X1.5, while the bite was at (-5) BAB and would be at 0.5X Strength (note that the bite remains at -0.5 when used with a manufactured weapon, even when using two manufactured weapons).
2) Use the bite as a primary natural, and 2 claws as secondary natural weapons (just as explained in dragon disciple's description)
3) As 2, but substitute slams for a claws - which would force the slam to work at (-5) BAB and get 0.5 strength to damage, as the bite would be the primary natural weapon. Mixing 1 slam and 1 claw would be permitted.
4) Make 2 Slams as primary attacks (full BAB, normal strength to damage), and 1 bite at (-5) BAB and (0.5) strength damage.
5) A suboptimal 1 slam as a primary attack (full BAB, normal strength to damage), 1 claw at (-5) BAB and (0.5) strength damage, and 1 bite at (-5) BAB and (0.5) strength damage.
Basically: If you use manufactured weapons (including monk natural attacks), you must use them as your primary weapon, and everything else as secondary natural weapons. If not, you may use the bite or the slams as primary natural weapons, while everything else are secondary natural weapons. The claws may never be primary natural weapons, because the rules of the dragon disciple designate them as secondary. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/13/2006 8:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
So, in essence, in most cases I could simply add the natural attack(s) with available limbs/whatever at -5 (multi-attack would drop this to -2)
Generally this is true. However, the inconsistant exception comes with the 'off claw/slam' when using one handed or light manufactured weapons. The books were not consistent in implementing a singular rule. Some indicated that the 'off claw/slam' attack was impossible, while others said it could be done at -5 BAB / 0.5 strength to damage. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 8:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
So, in essence, in most cases I could simply add the natural attack(s) with available limbs/whatever at -5 (multi-attack would drop this to -2)
Generally this is true. However, the inconsistant exception comes with the 'off claw/slam' when using one handed or light manufactured weapons. The books were not consistent in implementing a singular rule. Some indicated that the 'off claw/slam' attack was impossible, while others said it could be done at -5 BAB / 0.5 strength to damage.
This is covered in the FAQ, page 54-55. You get all your natural attacks that are left after you account for hands that are holding weapons, at -5 BAB and half damage. | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 9:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
I am just curious as to how a Warforged can fall in love and get married ? Political reasons ? I was under the impression they had very few human feelings, if any...
Because the DM said so. [:D]
Heh. Warforged are misunderestimated in their strategery. Oof. I mean, frequently misunderstood. Personal conversation with some developers changed my mind about them... a lot.
What's a "human feeling?"
If an elf falls in love, is that elf love? Or is that human love? What if an elf falls in love with a human, and the human is in love with a dwarf?
Warforged aren't robots. They have souls (at least according to most theological, philosophical, arcane, and scientific scholars), and sentience. It makes perfect sense to me that they can have feelings. Love is just a feeling.
And this guy showed love to his brothers (the adventuring party he leads) way before he even met this elven lass. With powerful roleplaying like that, how could I deny him? [)] | |
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tree druid
Sergeant
414 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 9:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
I am just curious as to how a Warforged can fall in love and get married ? Political reasons ? I was under the impression they had very few human feelings, if any...
Because the DM said so. [:D]
Heh. Warforged are misunderestimated in their strategery. Oof. I mean, frequently misunderstood. Personal conversation with some developers changed my mind about them... a lot.
What's a "human feeling?"
If an elf falls in love, is that elf love? Or is that human love? What if an elf falls in love with a human, and the human is in love with a dwarf?
Warforged aren't robots. They have souls (at least according to most theological, philosophical, arcane, and scientific scholars), and sentience. It makes perfect sense to me that they can have feelings. Love is just a feeling.
And this guy showed love to his brothers (the adventuring party he leads) way before he even met this elven lass. With powerful roleplaying like that, how could I deny him? [)]
But But But.............. how does that work? Does he have an assortment of sockets, in varying shapes and sizes? [)]
Also, I agree on the sentiment that a warforged can feel love. One of my players is a warforged druid and truly loves his wolf companion. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 10:41 PM |
| um..... trying to be delicate here..... aren't warforged like a ken doll .....um down there.
since they don't wear clothes normaly if they aaahhh.... had attachments wouldn't it be a bit obvious.
I suppose they could have another slam attack. [)]
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| 2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 10:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by maijstral
um..... trying to be delicate here..... aren't warforged like a ken doll .....um down there.
since they don't wear clothes normaly if they aaahhh.... had attachments wouldn't it be a bit obvious.
I suppose they could have another slam attack. [)]
Well Chris...
If nothing else this is good preparation for what the party is going to say to you. You know the juvenile humor will kick in--despite the massive IQ pointage in the room. We just can't help it.
Prepare witty retorts! Laugh with it now. Hehe, you know it'll happen. We'll get over it soon. [:D] If it drags out, I'll have Pilgrim's wife kill one of them. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/13/2006 11:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
So, in essence, in most cases I could simply add the natural attack(s) with available limbs/whatever at -5 (multi-attack would drop this to -2)
Generally this is true. However, the inconsistant exception comes with the 'off claw/slam' when using one handed or light manufactured weapons. The books were not consistent in implementing a singular rule. Some indicated that the 'off claw/slam' attack was impossible, while others said it could be done at -5 BAB / 0.5 strength to damage.
This is covered in the FAQ, page 54-55. You get all your natural attacks that are left after you account for hands that are holding weapons, at -5 BAB and half damage.
True ... that is what one of the sources(the FAQ) says. However, there were a number of places where they refused to implement this, and denied the other 'claw' attacks. It has been a while, so I have no idea where these examples were.
As the FAQ was mostly written by Skip (the rules) Williams (get it? ... skip the rules ...), I tend to not give it gospel weight.
Regardless, unless you're dealing with a rogue that can generate massive damage with every attack, I don't think it will be too much of a problem under any ruling that is made. If you're the player, tell the DM his options, explain that the rules are inconsistently applied by WotC and ask him how he wants to run it. DMs are the final arbitor of the rules. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Anti-Sean
Warrior
283 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 11:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
I am just curious as to how a Warforged can fall in love and get married ? Political reasons ? I was under the impression they had very few human feelings, if any...
They have the capacity for a full range of emotion, but given that they were created and trained as weapons of war, they didn't have much time or inclination to explore or express most of that range. Now that the Last War has ended, each warforged has many more options available for personal growth, should they choose to take advantage of those opportunities. Not all do - some seek to return to their simpler past and continue to be nothing more than weapons. I'm playing with the idea of a warforged in love as well. It's been immense amounts of fun so far.
Man, do I love warforged!
quote:
Originally posted by tree druid
But But But.............. how does that work? Does he have an assortment of sockets, in varying shapes and sizes?
Love doesn't always require a physical aspect - just ask plenty of long-married couples! (I kid, I kid...)
Seriously, though, that can either be handwaved away as something the group doesn't want to explore, or provide an interesting angle if the warforged finds a lover whose feelings are reciprocal. What does it mean for their relationship with one another if they aren't able to physically express their feelings the way most other couples can? Will the warforged be able to fully understand what that means for the fleshie? Will the fleshie be able to accept a loving relationship without that? Or will it keep the two apart on some deep level, ultimately dooming the relationship?
At the risk of redundancy, man do I love warforged! | |
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