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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
    
 | | 02/16/2006 2:54 PM |
| At last something interesting comes from WotC regarding this spell (and its similars).
Development acknowledge the problems:
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a
Mark of Heroes bans it:
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebmoh/20060210a
I hope very much that a few (and limited) spells will be official to mimic some functionality of this great spell. Some kind of errata and new spells. After all a wizard that is able to turn into a bird and fly is great. Similarly a witch without the ability to turn enemies into toads is just weird. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 3:57 PM |
| The revisions to polymorph-like effects are very extensive.
I think this is a good change. Hopefully the alternatives in the PHB II will be good enough that I can ditch the old spell entirely. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 5:01 PM |
| I'm not a fan of the approach. The problem seemed to be PC abuse of the spell. So, to balance the problem, they didn't change how it is used by most PCs (with the exception of wildshaping druids), but limited it for the monsters that use the effect?
Weird.
The only PCs that really get 'nerfed' by this change are druids ... and they may actually benefit other than losing animal growth as a weapon. Instead, they get to keep racial abilities, like a dwarf's stonecunning, darkvision, stability and saves versus spells.
The changes to wildshape are perfectly fine. I'm just confused why they decided to leave the meat of the problem alone and not change polymorph, too. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 5:09 PM |
| They also banned it completely from Mark of Heroes and recommended that it not be used in home games. I think that counts as affecting how players use it.
Also one thing I think you missed - stuff no longer merges with the druid's form when he shifts. If he can't use it, it falls to the ground instead. That adds some logistical problems for druids, not to mention a lot of druids that end up naked when they change back to humanoid shape. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 5:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
They also banned it completely from Mark of Heroes and recommended that it not be used in home games. I think that counts as affecting how players use it.
Also one thing I think you missed - stuff no longer merges with the druid's form when he shifts. If he can't use it, it falls to the ground instead. That adds some logistical problems for druids, not to mention a lot of druids that end up naked when they change back to humanoid shape.
They never went so far as to explicity recommend that it be dropped from games, although the recommendation is implied. I plan to drop it and replace it (and shapechange) with a series of polymorph spells (one for each form) that specify abilities gained.
As for the merging: It isn't so bad. See the monster manual errata for alternate form.quote:
Any gear worn or carried by the creature taht can't be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can't wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vis-versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.)
[Emphasis added]
So, all the magical equipment that was sticking with a druid in wildshapes before stays with him still. Most of the stuff that was merging with the druid before is now dropped on the floor. However, some materials that used to stay the same size now grow. For example, if a DM rules that a dire ape can wield a weapon, a medium weapon being carried by a druid will grow to large when the druid adopts the new form. In fact, as written, a druid with a diminutive weapon would end up with a large weapon when the spell went off, as the carried item changes size to match the new size of the creature, not the relatice size increase.
So, a druid that wildshapes into a bear might have his armor, pack, etc ... drop to the floor. He'll still retain the (non-armor) magic items that a bear could wear (as well as nonmagical items a bear could wear, such as a nonmagical hat). When he reverts to normal form, he may provide a show for his party members, but that is about it.
This may cause a problem when the PCs want to flee a battle scene, and the druid's gear is on the floor ... but that is about the extent of his loss. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 5:38 PM |
| It also means that any time he shifts he has to spend actually significant amounts of time putting his armor back on - 1 minute for most of the stuff druids can wear, which affects stuff how long your spells will last, etc.
Like I said, it creates logistical problems.
On the recommendation to ditch it entirely:
quote:
The same is not true in the RPGA’s Mark of Heroes campaign. As part of our continuing effort to ensure a fair and equitable play experience for all participants, the polymorph spell and several related game elements have been designed as “restricted,” meaning that they are now unavailable for use in that campaign. If you’ve found these game elements to be problematic in your home game, we recommend that you implement the same change.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 5:44 PM |
| BTW, there's been an alternate polymorph system on Rich Burlew's site for a while, but I find it a bit complicated:
http://www.giantitp.com/Func0012.html | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 5:49 PM |
| I missed that line somehow. They do make a conditional recommendation, if polymorph has been causing problems.
As for the time it takes to 'put stuff back on' ... I think you'll just see druids shift to items like bracers that can be worn my most forms. The only time that this becomes a huge deal is aquatic forms. Instead of wildshaping into a shark immediately, a druid now has to strip in a safe place, and then jump in the water.
Frankly, that little change baffles me. Having items merge was not overpowering, and it was very convenient for speeding game play and 'keeping the heroic flow going'. I don't see the benefit of removing it. | |
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 02/16/2006 5:59 PM |
| | I don't see how bracers would still work, since the physiology is not identical. Turn into a bear and the straps should break on the bracers. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 6:02 PM |
| | Update: Andy Collins posted in the EN World rules thread on this that the 'naked druid' side effect was unintentional and will be fixed, so we can scratch the logistical problems I guess. | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 6:37 PM |
| | The errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) was modified to reflect those changes as well. IMHO they did a very good job on the MM (Alternate Form, Change Shape and the mosters) and limiting druids and Baleful Polymorph but they should have fixed Polymorph itself as well. I would also go and change Polymorph Any Object. It is broken since its too easy to do permanent changes. One can cast it again and again to turn a Colossal creature to a Fine one (or any gradual change for that matter). | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 6:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
I don't see how bracers would still work, since the physiology is not identical. Turn into a bear and the straps should break on the bracers.
Magic items resize. A giant and a pixie can wear the same magic ring, magic bracers or magic cloak.
A bear could have bracers strapped to it, just like a human. A nonmagical pair of bracers designed for a human would be awkward on a bear, but a magical set of bracers can reshape to fit the bear.
This is all subject to DM interpretation, but it follows the recommendations of how wildshape and magic items should work as written by Andy Collins in various locations, at various times (on message boards at the release of 3.5, in an article on the wizards boards, etc ...)Apparently, the new errata changes this ... | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 6:50 PM |
| HOLD. IT. The new version says quote:
Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the
new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet." That means that all druid equipment melds, regardless of whether the new form could use it.
That ... sucks. That is a huge reduction of power for druids ... And a death warrant for all mid-level druids. A 12 to 16 AC is just asking for a quick death at levels 7 to 12. | |
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Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 8:37 PM |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 9:20 PM |
| | I guess selective melding of only certain items wouldn't have made much sense. This still may change, given how quickly the errata was errata'ed. Is there an FAQ somewhere that describes what can and can't be worn in wildshape (prior to the most recent errata)? | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 9:33 PM |
| | Much congrats to Andy Collins, who has had his genitals in a vice from having to do that stupid FAQ about templates and polymorph. I think I like "list" suggestion the best. Just list the exact forms you can assume with polymorph. That should fix the multi-templated war troll polymorph cheese pretty well. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 9:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by madda
... Druids are pretty nasty even without Killer-Wildshape.
I think you're missing my point. Let's look at a level 12 druid wildshaped into a bear. Let's say he has 75 hit points, and has a barkskin increasing his AC from the 17 of a normal dire bear to 21.
Now, the party comes across a cloud giant (CR 11). The cloud giant, seeing an unarmored bear in melee combat, attacks with a full attack action with power attack of 5 on how two handed gargantuan morningstar. Each hit deals an average of 42. His attack bonuses are going to be +17/+12/+7, meaning that he has probabilities of hitting of 85%, 60% and 35%. If he gets 1 critical, or 2 hits, the druid is dead.
This was an encounter with a CR 1 less than the druid's level. A DM might throw two or three cloud giants at a 12th level party.
ACs in the low 20s are a death sentence for melee fighters at those levels. Heck, a level 2 paladin/fighter with a large shield, full plate and a dexterity of 12 can match the AC of this 12th level melee character. Without the benefit of magic items to protect them, druids will not be able to survive in melee.
Druids can circumvent this, to an extent, by wildshaping and then having someone 'dress them' in their magic items. This is a silly little step that is awkward in the game, and is not available in all situations. If the druid is set upon at an awkward time, he will not have time to be adorned in his magic items after wildshaping - and the party's melee power takes a huge hit.
Were druids overpowered before? Some say yes. I say no. The argument has been hashed out a few hundred times on the various boards, so I won't rehash it here. Regardless, under the new system, the argument will switch from 'is the druid overpowered or balanced?' to 'is the druid balanced or underpowered?' And that answer won't really be clear until we've tried things out for a while ... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 10:00 PM |
| The issue is NOT druids, although they are somewhat freaky-strong as a base class.
The issue centers around all of the potential abuses that exist a-la Pun-Pun.
If you've not seen Pun-Pun (the 5th level kobold who becomes the most powerful character EVER). I heartily recommend you read the character optimization boards. Once you get into a new form and acquire certain characteristics you can then start to combine and develop truly abusive combinations.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801
Pun-pun is this ability taken to its amusing, optimized and cheesy end. Fun mental exercise, but painful.
Most of these are, obviously, easily handled by a DM fiat.
Point of note, Living Greyhawk has banned Polymorph for YEARS; I'm not surprised at all that Mark of Heroes is following suit. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 10:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The issue is NOT druids, although they are somewhat freaky-strong as a base class.
The issue centers around all of the potential abuses that exist a-la Pun-Pun...
That is a ridiculous example, with multiple highly questionable actions that no DM would realistically allow. That is not a problem that needs to be fixed, so much as ignored. Fringe examples will always work their way into the game. We can't get bogged down in them. We just need to make sure the mainstream stuff works really well. Mainstream stuff like polymorph and wildshape ... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/16/2006 11:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Again, a DM can solve any and all of those. Polymorph though is one of those open-ended abilities ... if this were minis you'd have to price the mini with the knowledge that you can become ANY OTHER MINI.
So, I agree ... and most DMs handle it quite well. A good clarification/rescope on polymorph would be nice.
I agree. I started off by saing that I didn't like how this handled. This seems to be a fix that gets at the peripherals, but leaves the core problem untouched (unless you outlaw polymorph). | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 5:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I think you're missing my point. Let's look at a level 12 druid wildshaped into a bear. Let's say he has 75 hit points, and has a barkskin increasing his AC from the 17 of a normal dire bear to 21.
...More correct stuff...
I see your point. It's very clear. Still, the druid can simply revert to his own form when seeing the cloud giant and use whatever equipment he like. I simply do not see Wild Shape as a combat oriented talent. It can be used for combat with normal animals that the druid hunts while in wild shape but not against real threats. I think Wild Shape is all about role playing, being in animal form and seeing the world from different prespective. That been said, everyone sees it the way he like and I fully understand your reasons. As long as your DM (or you) are understanding each other it's all good ΖD] | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/17/2006 6:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by madda
...I simply do not see Wild Shape as a combat oriented talent. It can be used for combat with normal animals that the druid hunts while in wild shape but not against real threats. ...
I respect your opinion, but druids have been meaningful melee contributors against serious threats between the relase of 3.5 and the release of this errata. In fact, some people argue that the druid has been so effective that he was overpowered. Now, with the difficulty in using magic items and the loss of animal growth as an option, the arguments will now be whether the druid is underpowered or effective enough to be considered balanced. IMHO, the AC problems that druids will face will render them unviable over the long haul if they fill any serious melee role. As many parties have come to depend on druids for melee support, this may mean a lot of PC death in the next few months ... | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 02/17/2006 9:33 AM |
| Given the offensive spells a druid has access to, they're quite close to a Wizard in offensive spellpower. Add to that what is still a very good ability to wildshape, and they're still looking good.
There's a few errors in the current errata, though. Did you notice there's no HD limit any more?
Cheers! | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 11:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Given the offensive spells a druid has access to, they're quite close to a Wizard in offensive spellpower. Add to that what is still a very good ability to wildshape, and they're still looking good.
There's a few errors in the current errata, though. Did you notice there's no HD limit any more?
Cheers!
First, I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one that thinks druids have great offensive spells.
As for the HD limit, unless I'm not reading the errata correctly, while there is no HD limit the PHB the new Alternate Form states that you retain your HD, HP, BAB and base save bonus. Why does it matter then how much HD a real creature of the type you wildshaped to have ? | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/17/2006 1:04 PM |
| Druids have fine offensive spells. However:
1.) they are less powerful than a wizards spells of equivalent level,
2.) the druid has less spells than a specialist wizard or sorcerer,
3.) the druid often must devote a fair number of spells to party healing,
4.) the druid has fewer feats to boost his spells via metamagic,
5.) druid spells are less versatile than wizard spells.
If you pull a wizard out of a game and replace it with an equally well equipped druid, you'll notice the difference.
As for the HD cap: I think Merric is stating that a druid can adopt any form that fits the size restrictions, regardless of the hit dice fo the creature. If so, then a druid that can become large can choose to be a dire bear or dire tiger as soon as he hits 8th level, which would be be problematic, as their offensive powers would far outclass what they should have at that level.
The system needs work. Lots of it. It just seems like the effect on wildshape was not even playtested. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 2:23 PM |
| I do think that druids were a little too good, for one reason in particular - the natural spell feat. Allowing them to take their incredibly powerful combat form while retaining full spellcasting is I think a little beyond the pale.
I would rather nerf their item access than the spellcasting access, personally, so I think this gets at the right solution. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 3:40 PM |
| | Very interesting read guys. I think I really like the changes to the druid, although it could be pretty disruptive to some people's current campaigns. Flavor wise, I think these changes make the druid more of what I imagine a druid being (a powerful, nature-oriented divine caster rather than a dire ape basher of doom that also casts uber divine spells). The HD cap does seem to be something they missed. Perhaps we'll have another errata shortly. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/17/2006 4:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I do think that druids were a little too good, for one reason in particular - the natural spell feat. Allowing them to take their incredibly powerful combat form while retaining full spellcasting is I think a little beyond the pale.
Are you ready for a shock? I disagree.
The feat was necessary. If you didn't include it, druids would have to choose between spells and wildshaping, making 1/2 of their character abilities pretty much useless. Adding this feat in 3.5 gave the class the ability to fully function. That is a good thing.
I'll even go so far as to say that it should have been an automatic ability of the class instead of a feat that 90+% of druids took at 6th character level. Having a feat that every PC in a certain class takes is kind of pointless, and reduces variance in games.
Regardless, druids wildshaped forms were not ridiculously powerful for their level. In fact, there are more than a few threads on various boards that discuss the relative power of druids when compared to paladins, barbarians or rangers. The end result: against low AC foes, the druid (+ animal companion) tends to be just as strong as the fighter classes, but once the ACs start to rise on the enemies, the druid's effectiveness takes a huge hit. I can point you towards that battle with the bone devil in Tom's campaign, in which my druid could not hit unless he rolled an 18, while your (lower level) paladin was hitting more than 50% of the time on his main attack.
The numbers don't back up the idea that druids were too powerful in melee combat. It was a case of image being more influential than fact.quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I would rather nerf their item access than the spellcasting access, personally, so I think this gets at the right solution.
I would rather they had not nerfed either. As it stands, with the loss of animal growth and other animal buffing spells, druids took a huge hit in effectiveness. Placing odd restrictions on items requiring the druid to strip and then ask the party paladin to redress them after the wildshape is kind of a ridiculous insult on top of the injury. It adds unnecessary awkwardness to the game that really interferes with the heroic ideal. ("Excuse me, I'm going to strip naked and turn into a bear. Could you please dress me once I finish changing? You might have to climb around on me a bit ..." - Note: This will be a task that is obviously best assigned to the party paladin ...)
Was there a huge problem with the 'selective merging' that this 'solution' is answering? I can't find one. All I can find is added awkwardness.
As a final challenge to those accusing the druid of being as powerful as a wizard in spellcasting: Please point me to the core spells that you feel outclass the other classes. In other words, what spell does a druid have that a wizard or cleric can not do equally as well or better in a general setting? I know of a few, but I know of far more examples where the wizard's power significantly outshines the druid ... | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 5:28 PM |
| We are really getting into an unnecessary argument. It all started as noting a blessed change in Polymorph.
Let's check the Druid class. OK?
I'll compare it to the Cleric class.
(And I hope we both agree it's not a mediocre class)
* BAB: same.
* Saves: same.
* Abilities requirements: same (for spells)
* Spells - same amount (let's call the clerical domain spell and ability a special ability for now), different style.
* Spontaneous Casting: different style.
* Skills: 2+Int for cleric, 4+Int for Druid.
Now, the cleric has Domain spells, Turn Undead and proficient with simple weapons, all armors and shields.
The Druid on the other hand has Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, and other goodies as it get up in levels (Woodland stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature’s Lure, Venom Immunity, A Thousand Faces, and Timeless Body). I'm not counting Wildshape on purpose.
The weapon proficiencies are different and maybe a tiny bit weaker. They are not proficient with heavy armor but can use dragonhide instead of metal thus using dragonhide breastplate (mere hundred of gold pieces more expensive, still less than metal full place). Only 3 point AC worse than full plate.
So, for 3 point of AC and Domain spells you get all these wonderful abilities. Did I mention the Animal Companion? It alone matches the spell IMHO since it gets better when you get stronger. So, heck, even without Wildshape completely druids are good class. With it they rock. Even if it's weakened greatly.
If you feel that Druidic spells are weaker than Clerical spells I can make a comparison level by level. However, I truly think we annoyed those who do read this thread more than enough.
Can we agree that we disagree, and leave it as is ? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 5:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I do think that druids were a little too good, for one reason in particular - the natural spell feat. Allowing them to take their incredibly powerful combat form while retaining full spellcasting is I think a little beyond the pale.
Are you ready for a shock? I disagree.
The feat was necessary. If you didn't include it, druids would have to choose between spells and wildshaping, making 1/2 of their character abilities pretty much useless. Adding this feat in 3.5 gave the class the ability to fully function. That is a good thing.
I agree that the feat was necessary, which is why I think the best nerf is to their item access, not to their spellcasting access.
Once druids get dire bear form, they're overpowered if they are allowed to have full item and spell use as well. I don't see this as a particularly arguable point (remember I've also played a 3E druid.) The clear right balance choice is to let them retain their class features (spellcasting) instead of external things like items. I'd even go so far as to say it makes sense for them to retain their enhancement bonuses to mental stats for ease of bookkeeping. Stuff like that picture posted above just irks me. Dyno-Mutt doesn't belong in a fantasy game, in my opinion.
I don't think the take stuff off then put stuff back on method is a good one either. I'd rather just rule that they can't use it in animal form, or maybe add a feat that allows them to retain passive item bonuses in wild shape form, something like:
Natural Item
Prerequisites: wild shape, Natural Spell
Wondrous items and rings that provide continuous deflection, resistance, enhancement, or insight bonuses continue to function while wildshaped.
Something along those lines would probably be an OK solution. Tweak the bonus types, I didn't do a comprehensive list. I'd leave off circumstance bonuses but armor bonus would probably be ok. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/17/2006 6:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB...
Once druids get dire bear form, they're overpowered if they are allowed to have full item and spell use as well. I don't see this as a particularly arguable point (remember I've also played a 3E druid.)...
I can't see how you can say that, given that we proved it to be false, as I pointed out above. The druid needed an 18 to hit the bone devil. The paladin needed less than a 10. A barbarian would also have needed less than a 10. If you'd like me to run some numbers, I'd be happy to do so. I'm more than happy to do that sort of thing, so that people can poke holes in my numbers, and I can poke holes in their holes, and so on in a pointless circle ...
Druids have been able to deal lots of damage to low AC foes. However, when the ACs climb, the druids lose out. Even at their peak of relative power (compared to other melee fighters) at 12th level, they have always been unable to compete with the true melee classes against high AC foes.
Regardless, offense isn't the issue with magic items. Few items add to a druid's offensive abilities.
Druids tend to get magic items to raise that AC from 21 (17 base + 4 from barkskin) to something respectable, often in the high 20s or low 30s. Some common items are bracers of armor, rings of protection, monk belts, etc ...
An AC of 21 is a death sentence at 12th level. Take, for example, a CR 11 cloud giant and a 75 hit point 12th level druid. 1 Full attack by the cloud giant will *likely kill* the AC 21 druid, especially if the giant factors in some power attack against the seemingly unarmored bear. A 12th level party should be facing 2 or 3 cloud giants in a battle ... which leaves ample opportunity for that AC 21 druid to die horribly.
Is that a good result? More PC death because the PCs lack the ability to defend themself?
I maintain that druids were appropriately balanced before these changes. With the loss of animal growth and the difficulty in using magic items, they are now significantly underpowered, especially if they were built to be melee fighters under the old system and will be unable to significantly benefit from their feats under the new system. | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 9:51 PM |
| Aaaaaaand there's another errata change up. This time you keep the gear on (and it resizes) if it's usable by the new form.
Man, I'm glad it's not the druid party this weekend. Maybe they'll make up their minds what the rules are in a week or two.
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
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Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 11:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by madda
Wow. Amazing drawing. Is it yours, Kunimatyu? I don't remember seeing it anywhere else. It's superb.
Oh, and jgsugden, it is indeed a reduction in power for druids. One well done if you want my opinion. Druids are pretty nasty even without Killer-Wildshape.
No, the drawing isn't mine, it's from a poster named Klaus on the ENWorld boards. It is hilarious (and more than a little ridiculous), though.
I really have to say that I'm okay with magic items not carrying over. Personally, I'd either make Wildshape 1min/level or eliminate Natural Spell to "fix" the Druid -- flying around as a hawk casting Flamestrike and Arc Lightning is a bit nuts, especially if it isn't obvious to enemies that the hawk is the one casting at them. | |
Champion of the Aboleth, Prophet of Denizens. BW Called Shot: Babau, UH Called Shot: Aspect of Vecna | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 02/18/2006 1:33 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kunimatyu
flying around as a hawk casting Flamestrike and Arc Lightning is a bit nuts, especially if it isn't obvious to enemies that the hawk is the one casting at them.
This is my problem with Wildshape. I have problem with magic items resizing to fit your body- they do with enlarge self just fine. It's with a dolphin being able to cast spells with its flippers. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10492 Posts
United States
| | 02/18/2006 9:29 AM |
| I understand the need for WotC to address this for the people who play in leagues and competitively. But, for home campaigns, I've never had a problem with Druids or Wizards and their different ways to assume different forms.
I get that there has to be a standard for non-home play, and I'm glad they're trying, and I'm glad they're listening to players.
I hope we don't see polymorph disappear entirely, or get so changed that it's nothing at all like it was. I think the ability of a wizard to assume different forms is a quintessential part of fantasy gaming.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 02/18/2006 11:48 AM |
| I have to admit, my campaign right now is living through the polymorph problem.
One player is a Monk 1/Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 8/Warshaper 2. He lives his entire live in Cave Troll form. His damage right now is pretty much ridiculous. He's wielding something like a +1 vicious, holy quarterstaff, which with spikes is giving him a flurry of blows at what, +24/+24/+19/+14 for 1d8+17 plus 4d6 against many enemies. It makes the other characters cry.
Except that among the other characters, there's a Shifter with his cohort, an awakened dog that looks pretty much like that picture. Like, he actually drew a picture that looks uncannily like that one. Except with a floating shield.
They're having so much fun, I'd hate to spoil it at this point. I mean, 4 more levels and we're retiring the campaign anyhow. I just know that in future campaigns, the shaphechanging classes (MoMF, MT and probably Warshaper) are going on the restricted list. And probably floaty shields too. [:)] | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/18/2006 12:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
...This is my problem with Wildshape. ... It's with a dolphin being able to cast spells with its flippers.
Yeah, because a magical elf casting magical spells is sooooooooooooo much more 'realistic'. [)] [})]
Putting aside the 'image' issues, I don't like the strategic/combat implications for these changes. I can't imagine the reason behind fostering rules that encourage:
1.) Low ACs for druids in wildshape,
2.) Awkward and unheroic conversations ("I'm going to strip naked and then wildshape. Would you please redress me when I'm a bear?")
3.) Drastically reduce the effectiveness of feats already selected by many druids (power attack, cleave and combat reflexes all lost a lot of value in these changes), and
4.) Further reduce diversity in druids by encouraging them all to devote significant amounts of their wealth in wild armor and wildling clasps. | |
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