Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
    
West Valley City, Utah
 | | 03/03/2006 11:52 PM |
| I am DMing a campaign and we recently acquired the Spell Compendium. I have heard that some of the spells in the book are overpowered, and am cautious about a blanket approval of the whole book.
I had heard some people say that the Orb spells (lesser orbs and orbs) may be overpowered. Please review the reasons why or why they are not overpowered. I don't intend to get a final answer in this thread, but various opinions expressed. That way I can use the various opinions and decide what I will do with my group. Thanks. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/03/2006 11:58 PM |
| | I haven't read the Spell Compendium, however, Orb spells in previous publications weren't overpowered. Don't get me wrong, they're really potent but not necessarily overpowered. A friend of mine has read the Spell Compendium and agrees that Orb spells are potent not overpowered. | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
|
Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 10:33 AM |
| The orb spells are not unbalanced at all. They do alot less damage then their evocation equivilant (only a single target), requires a ranged touch attack, but they have the disctinct advantage of no save and no spell resistance. Nothing broken there.
The Flame Whips spell on the other hand... now that is broken. A 7th level caster can get 2 attacks that each do 6d6 damage for a total of 7 rounds. That is a possible 84d6 damage from a 7th level caster.
| |
"Are you not entertained?" 
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
| |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 03/04/2006 11:32 AM |
| Not to worry Corim, they are okay. I once played a sorcerer who took one of these and almost never even used it because there are better spells available.
If they were area effects then maybe things would be different | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
| |
|
Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/04/2006 4:26 PM |
| | Ok, thanks. I do want to know, generally, which spells are overpowered like those flame whips spells so that my players can enjoy the broader selection of spells from the new book. I will allow the orb spells, then. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| |
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 5:48 PM |
| People say they are overpowered because they do some things that wizards generally can't do well. IE cast spells against golems, in antimagic fields, etc. It's the same as some people thinking that the warlock is overpowered because it can use eldritch blast an infinite number of times per day.
But just like the underpowered warlock, the orb spells do less damage than their standard counterparts. And Acid Arrow is core and does the same things as the orb spells yet no one has ever argued that it is overpowered.
The only orb spell that you might want to restrict is Force Orb just because it is a force effect, which really shouldn't be able to ignore SR. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
|
Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 8:54 PM |
| Are the Orbs overpowered? Spork no.
Are the Orbs fundamentally flawed? A resounding YES! As conjuration (creation) effects, they work in AMFs, and ignore SR. Could someone please explain to me how you conjure force or sound?
Even stupider, with an instantaneous duration, you create a permanent non-magical object. So you can collect your orbs afterwards! | |
Support awesome games: Play Hecatomb!
8-Bit Chibi Goths forever!
Champion of Mephistopheles
"Sorry! I was tryin' to open these beans!"
My Have/Want List, (Updated July 6 2004, will be updated soon)
| |
|
kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 9:55 PM |
| Yeah, I really don't see what the problem is. Short range and requiring a ranged touch attack means you gotta get close, and you can miss. Damage is one die every other level too, so it's not so much of a much. My conjuror rarely uses it -- monster summoning is much more fun!
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/04/2006 10:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Could someone please explain to me how you conjure force or sound?
Same way you conjure Fire and Water? [)]
Force and sound in the D&D world function as elements and elements are conjurable. | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
|
Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 3:19 PM |
| Definite agreement with Testament here. Maybe they should keep the no SR thing, just to keep them distinctive(and you know, not total crap compared to scorching ray), but they're *clearly* Evocation spells, not Conjuration.
So if I was going to houserule them, I'd houserule them (and maybe Arc Lightning) as Evocation not Conjuration, leaving the no SR thing, since they're close range and put the caster near harm's way.
Also, Flame Whip isn't overpowered. The whips have a 15ft range, so ANY threatening enemy should be able to close with the low hp caster and put them in serious danger. Additionally (and this is huge), the caster cannot cast spells with material components (which is a lot of them!) while Flame Whip is in effect. Not at all overpowered for a 4th level spell.
The only way Flame Whip could be overpowered is if you give your players 10 rounds of buff time before combat, which, IMO, you should never do. If the wizard wants to be a combat machine, make him spend 4 rounds putting up his shield-mirror image-alter self-flame whip combo while everyone else is already engaging the enemy. | |
Champion of the Aboleth, Prophet of Denizens. BW Called Shot: Babau, UH Called Shot: Aspect of Vecna | |
|
LordStorm
Sneak
133 Posts
Columbus Ohio
| | 03/06/2006 9:21 PM |
| I agree Orb spells are not overpowered.
I have found that with many spells some people thing they are overpowered because of one rare situation or a fundamental flaw in their analysis.
I would really laugh at a stright wizard creating a flame whip and going toe to toe. However it is a perfect spell for a spellsword who has given up a lot to get to 4th level spells (A SS won't be just 7th he'll be much higher which also minimizes the effect of the damage since straight fighter will be doing as much damage on single target). | |
Lord Storm | |
|
Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 03/07/2006 12:49 AM |
| | Indeed, not to mention that energy resist starts popping up a lot more frequently once you're in the double-digits, levelwise. By the time the spellsword/eldritch knight gets it, it's not a big deal. | |
Champion of the Aboleth, Prophet of Denizens. BW Called Shot: Babau, UH Called Shot: Aspect of Vecna | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/07/2006 2:22 AM |
| I think the orb spells are a little too strong, but my main problem with them is the way they break the instantaneous conjuration rules (which we've discussed here before.)
Flame whip is most definitely not overpowered. The caster loses all ability to do anything with their hands, including spell casting, wands, potions, etc., while the spell is up. Putting an arcane caster into melee range is also a poor tactical choice, especially when it can't cast. Remember, dismissing a dismissable spell is a standard action, so it will take him an extra round of doing nothing if he needs to stop whipping and start doing something else. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/07/2006 12:50 PM |
| For those worried about the 'instantaneous conjuration' issue ... think of it this way: The spell conjures up the energy in a static form - that is barely held together by magic. When it impacts, the energy is released from the magical constraints and does what energy normally does – it dissipates.
The only form of energy where this doesn't seem to work too well is acid. However, that can be explained away by saying that the orb bursts forth a thin film of acid that does its work quickly to a large area of the creature, but lacks the volume in any given location to linger and provide persistent damage.
| |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/07/2006 10:19 PM |
| | I'm actually really glad you posted this thread. I am just about to buy the Spell Compendium, and its nice to know one of this thread exists and I can write down what ones are problems. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 1:04 AM |
| The "Bite of the..." spells should not be allowed to stack with wildshaping, but are very cool spells otherwise.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/08/2006 3:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
The "Bite of the..." spells should not be allowed to stack with wildshaping, but are very cool spells otherwise.
Cheers!
Agreed.
If you want to see what spells have 'power issues', you may wish to do some searching over on Enworld's message boards. There is a pretty decent list of spells that cause issues.
Many of the issues are only problematic in large parties, or when the spell is in the hands of a careless DM. One such example is mass aid. An orc chaman can turn his tribe of orcs into the equivalent of bugbears with one 3rd level spell, raising an EL 4 battle into the equiavlent of an EL 8 encounter.
Another pair of spells worth watching are the transposition and snake swiftness spells. DDM players can tell you how effective these spells are in DDM. In RPG, they can be even more abusive. Imagine a 2nd level druid spell being responsible for 120 damage ... My druid has done that with mass snake swiftness. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
kestrel.ca
Underboss
1687 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 3:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Another pair of spells worth watching are the transposition and snake swiftness spells. DDM players can tell you how effective these spells are in DDM. In RPG, they can be even more abusive. Imagine a 2nd level druid spell being responsible for 120 damage ... My druid has done that with mass snake swiftness.
One of my favourite tactics! With a Goliath Barbarian (avg 20+ dam) and a Greataxe weilding Paladin (avg 15+ dam) - both with great cleave - in our party, it makes for a very effective spell when most are in close combat. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 94 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
|
Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 6:21 PM |
| Although mass snake's swiftness is great, getting to the point where it is effective requires good tactics. I think that's a laudable aim. [:)]
quote:
An orc shaman can turn his tribe of orcs into the equivalent of bugbears with one 3rd level spell, raising an EL 4 battle into the equiavlent of an EL 8 encounter.
You need to pay attention to the Orc Cleric in the EL calculation. (At least a CR 5!)
Incidentally:
Orc Warrior: hp 5; Atk +4 (6-12); AC 13; Spd 30 ft
Aided Orc: hp 15; Atk +5 (6-12); AC 13; Spd 30 ft
Bugbear: hp 16; Atk +5 (3-10; AC 17; Spd 30 ft.
Cheers!
| |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/08/2006 6:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
...You need to pay attention to the Orc Cleric in the EL calculation. (At least a CR 5!)...
I'm just advising people to be careful.
There are a number of ways that a DM might pop this spell off on a number of troops without the shaman/cleric being involved in the combat directly. For instance, the spell could come from a scroll, or the spell could be cast on troops that then travel a distance (up to a few minutes away) before entering combat (leaving the cleric/shaman well out of the fight).
A careful DM would adjust the EL for these facts, while a careless DM might just toss off the spell and expect it to have little or no effect on the battle. Thus, I advise caution. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 7:24 PM |
| Caution is well advised. [)]
Great spell for PCs, though.
Cheers!
| |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Zeb
Underboss
2027 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 4:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Could someone please explain to me how you conjure force or sound?
Same way you conjure Fire and Water? [)]
Force and sound in the D&D world function as elements and elements are conjurable.
But to my knowledge those two "elements" are not allowed with the Energy Substitution feat. I would happen to agree with Testament...
Question, there isn't an Orb of Force spell, just a lesser version, any idea why? | |
Email Offers | Trade History
Champion of the Frost Giant Jarl
"Pray that you meet death standing on your feet, rather than on your knees." | |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 5:21 AM |
| | So a lot of the spells inside kind of require you to go over them? I mean I realize you should look over stuff first, but it would be kind of a pain going through each spell one by one making sure its balanced, etc.. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 2:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zeb
quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Could someone please explain to me how you conjure force or sound?
Same way you conjure Fire and Water? [)]
Force and sound in the D&D world function as elements and elements are conjurable.
But to my knowledge those two "elements" are not allowed with the Energy Substitution feat. I would happen to agree with Testament...
Question, there isn't an Orb of Force spell, just a lesser version, any idea why?
It is the opposite actually, there is an Orb of Force spell, but no lesser version.
I presume this is because the lesser version would be too similar to magic missile. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/10/2006 2:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
So a lot of the spells inside kind of require you to go over them? I mean I realize you should look over stuff first, but it would be kind of a pain going through each spell one by one making sure its balanced, etc..
Others have done that pain for you ... go search around on the Enworld boards. There was a huge discussion this book that isolated many spells that merit caution. In general, the book is a *very* strong addition to the game. I rank it right behind the 3 core books, the Expanded Psi-HB and the MMIII in terms of usefulness. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 9:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
In general, the book is a *very* strong addition to the game. I rank it right behind the 3 core books, the Expanded Psi-HB and the MMIII in terms of usefulness.
I almost find it a little TOO useful. I find myself drowning in choices, especially my cleric character. It's a big ol' meal, and I just need time to digest it...
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/11/2006 12:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kunimatyu
Additionally (and this is huge), the caster cannot cast spells with material components (which is a lot of them!) while Flame Whip is in effect.
That's not a balancing factor for me since my group doesn't bother with material components at all. (House rule) | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/11/2006 12:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
go search around on the Enworld boards.
I don't know Enworld (I am not acquainted with their boards). Would anyone mind posting a link to their list of potentially problematic spells with the Compendium? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/11/2006 1:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
go search around on the Enworld boards.
I don't know Enworld (I am not acquainted with their boards). Would anyone mind posting a link to their list of potentially problematic spells with the Compendium?
NO!!!!!!! [)]
Seriously - if you RPG D&D, then the Enworld boards are an incrdible resource. It is a wonderful wealth of information ... the Maxminis of true D&D. It is worth your time to get familiar with it ... so, like GuyF on the WotC boards, I'm not going to provide an answer that you'd be better off finding yourself ...
Ok, but just this once ... here are a few threads to read on the subject, although the big Enworld thread isn't listed ... I have to leave something for you to find ...
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=157452
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14093&SearchTerms=compendium
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12266
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5494&SearchTerms=compendium | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/12/2006 3:16 PM |
| | Thanks, jgsugden. I didn't mean that I wasn't ever going to learn my way around Enworld. I just wanted to know where to start (closer to the topic than just going to the home page). | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|