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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
    
Sydney, Australia
 | | 03/05/2006 4:30 PM |
| My first effort at roleplaying a paladin has struck its first moral dilemma.
In yesterday's session our group caught up with a group of graverobbers, and whilst my paladin wanted to bring these fellows to account before a court of law (albeit a possibly corrupt one), the rest of the group just waded into these fellows, and even though two of the bad guys were unconscious and helpless, three of the five PCs decided to finish them off. Since this happened in battle (initiative order) the paladin could not intervene in time.
Said paladin does the usual rant about justice, honor and mercy, and not stooping to the level of the bad guys, but the three 'murderers' refuse to change their ways.
I'm thinking my paladin should leave this group, and I should roll up a new character.
Opinions? | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/05/2006 5:00 PM |
| | Yes. That's why it's so hard to play a paladin in a group that contains characters of very different values. In our campaign, we defeated a team of Drow that were guarding the entrance to a fortress. My chaotic good character wanted to give the two surrendered drow a quick, relatively painless death. The paladin would have none of it. My reasoning was that there was no way we could drag them through the fortress as prisoners without them alerting their comrades about our presence - our party would have no surprise advantage, and would surely be beaten if they could bring all of their forces at once to bear on us. The party voted with me, and from then on, the paladin looked at me as a disgusting assassin. | |
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CarrionCrawler
Underboss
1760 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 5:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glauron
My first effort at roleplaying a paladin has struck its first moral dilemma.
In yesterday's session our group caught up with a group of graverobbers, and whilst my paladin wanted to bring these fellows to account before a court of law (albeit a possibly corrupt one), the rest of the group just waded into these fellows, and even though two of the bad guys were unconscious and helpless, three of the five PCs decided to finish them off. Since this happened in battle (initiative order) the paladin could not intervene in time.
Said paladin does the usual rant about justice, honor and mercy, and not stooping to the level of the bad guys, but the three 'murderers' refuse to change their ways.
I'm thinking my paladin should leave this group, and I should roll up a new character.
Opinions?
Talking is a free action. You couldn't yell to them to stop or something before the combat actually started? In my opinion, the characters obviously don't respect the paladin's views or choices. If I were you, I'd roll up another character...and if the players whine about how they don't have magical healing, point out that it was their actions that drove the paladin away... That does suck... | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 03/05/2006 5:42 PM |
| The paladin shouldnt just walk away imo.
It probably should still be ranting at the murderers, and if it doesnt think them repentant, reporting them for manslaughter to local authourities.
It that prompts a fight.. then you`ll get to see who rolls up the characters
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Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/05/2006 7:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
The paladin shouldnt just walk away imo.
It probably should still be ranting at the murderers, and if it doesnt think them repentant, reporting them for manslaughter to local authourities.
It that prompts a fight.. then you`ll get to see who rolls up the characters
Careful, from the sounds of things, you're the outnumbered one here. Usually, a paladin can take someone else in a straight-up fight, but these guys might resort to different tactics. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 03/05/2006 8:15 PM |
| quote:
Usually, a paladin can take someone else in a straight-up fight, but these guys might resort to different tactics.
Yep. The paladin character will most likley have to roll up a new character... that would just be my oreffered way of doing it instead of walking off into the sunset in disgust at the players. :)
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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bombur
Sergeant
362 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 8:30 PM |
| Being Lawful Good does not mean being Lawful Stupid. When playing a Paladin you should have a long talk about what is Good, Evil, Lawful and Chaotic behavior with the DM and with the other players. There should be an in game discussion of how to handle prisoners and how to determine if a surrender is genuine or just a ruse to buy time so that they can attack the PC's later at a more advantagous time. Sometimes you will be able to let the prisoners leave with a simple promise not to interfer or raise the alarm, sometimes a geas will be nessesscary. And sometimes you will have to execute them, but only after they have conviced themselves through word, thought and deed. Afterall if they lied about surrendering and are going to continue acting against you, you don't have much in the way of an obligation towards them. You might not be able to do the deed yourself but you don't have to oppose it.
This of course varies by the game and the person running it. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 11:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bombur
Being Lawful Good does not mean being Lawful Stupid.
Yes, but I do not think that wanting to turn a criminal into the authorities instead of killing them on the spot is necessarily stupid. If the people in custody are already subdued, most paladins should want to put them in jail rather than murder them.
quote:
Originally posted by bombur
There should be an in game discussion of how to handle prisoners and how to determine if a surrender is genuine or just a ruse to buy time so that they can attack the PC's later at a more advantagous time. Sometimes you will be able to let the prisoners leave with a simple promise not to interfer or raise the alarm, sometimes a geas will be nessesscary.
But in this case they are already unconscious. You can just tie them up. These aren't serial killers or rampaging orcs- they are just graverobbers. Certainly they deserve to be punished, but executing them is rather excessive. | |
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easytiger1
Warrior
231 Posts
| | 03/06/2006 12:26 AM |
| | Paladins are more trouble than they are worth, if the party is Neutral or Chaotic then the paladin will continually be at odds over conduct and ethos, I know i tried to play one with that sort of party , my paladin tried to change there ways but in the end left the group. Paladins are a extreme character type, not only bound by LG but also by a even stricter code of conduct than most LG are. | |
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Knight of Wuzz
Wuzzard
-827 Posts
| | 03/06/2006 1:12 AM |
| A Paladin is a religeous zealot first and foremost. The Paladin is lawful, meaning that he believes that people should respect that way of his one and true god. That does not necessarily mean the laws of the people or of the local government. Violators should be punished, yes, but not necessarily by him, unless that is the will of his god. Minor infactions should be despised and possibly even thwarted, major ones should be challenged. This also means the paladin has his own code of conduct (one handed down from his god) and he must strive to abide by it. A Paladin is good. He believes his actions to be just and for the good of all right thinking people, whether they actually are or not. A Paladin likely has a quest with the good-of-all hanging in the balance. This should be supplied by the DM and be in agreement with the player. The quest is what motives him.
A paladin is not a police officer, or a goody-two-shoes super hero. Taking up with a sqaud of otherwise unruly charlatans might be the most expedient means to achieve his goal. A paladin often believes the end justifies the means. (such is the way of the fanatic.) However, banding together with a bunch of choatic evil rogues out for a laugh is bound to end in a bad way, even for a neutral druid.
If I were playing a paladin in this scenario, not only would he be on the side of dispatching the graverobbers, he would have insisted on it, if he thought it at all worth the bother. Were they on hallowed ground? His god's ground? The graves tied to the soul's of once believers? Was the defiling of this ground an affront to his god? Would his god demand vengence? Was the robbing one of a series of strange occurances tied to the dark workings of some necromantic legion or was it simply the act of a few destitute vagabonds hoping to dig up a trinket worth enough in trade for a warm meal and a bed?
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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
Sydney, Australia
| | 03/06/2006 3:19 AM |
| Interesting perspectives.
The specific scenario is Age of Worms, module 1, Dragon Issue 124. The grave robbers are Kullen and his gang of ne'er-do-wells. The town rulers in Diamond Lake are corrupt, so handing them over to authorities is like letting them go.
That made it a very hard call on how to treat them. I wish we'd cut them down outright, but unconscious and bleeding, creates a whole different situation. I just couldn't see a Paladin doing it, or associating with characters who would. This Paladin isn't lawful stupid. I just don't think a Paladin will work with our group, changing character early might be best. I think LE would be a better fit than LG, but I'll probably roll some numbers and hope to play a neutral Druid. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 03/06/2006 7:02 AM |
| If the rulers are known to be corrupt, then the paladin actually should not surrender criminals to the local authorities. If the crime is a capital one, and the paladin has no doubt of guilt, a quick eclesiastical trial, probably followed by a humane execution, is the way to go. If the crime isn't a capital one (and graverobbing probably isn't), the paladin should probably intimidate the criminals, possibly mark them as such, and release them with a warning. (That's assuming that a trip to a non-corrupt authority is not feasible.)
If I were playing a paladin in this situation, I would be very firm, and very clear: this was the one instant of this sort of behavior that I would chalk up to not knowing better. If anything of this sort happened in the future, the perpetrators would be considered and treated as criminals themselves.
IMO, the DM must be certain that the other characters can work with a paladin, or he must simply not allow the paladin in the group. If the DM does allow it, he has a responsibility to "help" the paladin's player enforce his code, to the extent required to be able to remain in the group. As DM, I might, for instance, have one of the murdered criminal's relatives be a vengeful sort, and come after -- and possibly slay -- the murderers, making it very clear why. (And I might arrange the ambush so the paladin's not around to help.)
BTW, the murder of helpless prisoners isn't just a paladin's dilemma ... it should be a dilemma for every character of Good alignment. That's not to say that Good characters must take prisoners in every battle, but dealing with survivors should be a concern, and murdering them is not a Good act. Do it enough, and the PC's alignment should begin to reflect it.
As a practical note, in my campaign, set in the Scarred Lands, all of the PCs tend toward Chaos. Yet I would allow a paladin to join this group, because the locale is a tyrannical kingdom. Although there would surely be personality clashes, the mundane stuff (like breaking the laws) that adventurers tend to do constantly wouldn't be much of a problem for a paladin. On the other hand, I don't allow LN characters in the group. Kind of an interesting dynamic. | |
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Tasmanian_tiger
Warrior
300 Posts
| | 03/06/2006 8:43 AM |
| I guess every player that plays a paladin comes across such a situation. Would my paladin let this happen? Tiny and big moral dillemma.. Much of it depends on the group were he or she starts, I think. And on the pally's character.
I have been playing a paladin for the past years, up to level 8. (We have an uneven schedule..) The group has been very diverse (chaotic, neutral, even a lawfull evil character) (we had some players in the beginning, that aren't here anymore now.) And it has been a learning process to me too..
Anyway, this isn't very helpfull, so onto the next part. My paladin has grown from 'slap down all evil, literary' (the lawfull evil mage wasn't too happy with that), to 'try to get the good out of people'. Trying to understand people and help them in a more subtile way back to the 'good' side. Of course, he won't stand outright evil acts, but the group has grown in such a way, that I haven't seen that happen lately.
Other things that helped to my paladin to gain respect for his views were: safe a party member that the others wanted to leave behind (he had to run back all alone through the dungeon tunnels with the unconscious party member), stand up for another bullied party member (even when he is evil, but he hadn't done anything wrong).. etc.. shortly doing good (sometimes grazy 'paladin') things.. It isn't all about preaching.
It is pity that your group killed the unconscious grave robbers, it would have been interesting roleplay to let your paladin find out not all goverment is good and lawfull. A wise lesson, a wiser paladin.
Maybe, what I would have tried, is saying your paladin would take the (unconscious) grave robbers back himself. (Therefore avoiding the 'drag' that the others would experience having to escort them back to the town.) Of course, like you said, you were in battle and things tend to get fuzzy... And I don't know the entire situation. Maybe at least he could try to find the families of those that died or give them a proper burial. You would be showing decency and that your paladin cared about getting things done the justly. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 03/06/2006 4:49 PM |
| We have a mixed alignment group. Alot of LN and a couple of NG and N, there is one CG thrown in for good measure. We have captured a number of known criminals alive and turned them into the authorities that were not completly honest, but not willing to pass up on the spectacle that a proper hanging draws. When we have had prisoners that were just plain too dangerous to keep around or there is no authority to bring them to, we decided as a group what to do with them, a quick humane execution was usually the choice of action, with the two NG characters being the only ones who voted against it. We do not have any paladins though, but we do listen to the view points of each person.
I have to agree wtih Wayne on this though, a Paladin can choke one act up to spur of the moment or battle frenzy, but he would need to talk to the other party members and voice his concerns and make certain points clear. I don't see a paladin traveling with people that are going to kill helpless prisoners (without a trial of some kind.) Now if said trial is done by the members of your party in the middle of an adventure and takes all of 10 minutes, so be it. At least justice is served.
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Jefftyjeffjeff
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 2:09 AM |
| Like anyone with a mission, a paladin must understand that the world is full of people who do not share his or her values, and some who are hostile to them.
Walking away is one way of dealing with differences of opinion. Another way is remaining and serving as an example -- maybe preaching, or maybe simply doing what is good and lawful, and letting the virtue do the talking.
Either choice is okay, but neither is mandatory. | |
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Tasmanian_tiger
Warrior
300 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 10:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jefftyjeffjeff
Walking away is one way of dealing with differences of opinion. Another way is remaining and serving as an example -- maybe preaching, or maybe simply doing what is good and lawful, and letting the virtue do the talking.
Either choice is okay, but neither is mandatory.
Yes, that's what I kinda meant too. The more subtle road can work well too, plus may gain more 'converts' then only looking for the like-minded.
I feel like I'm talking like a preacher.[:p] But I mean it simply as a way to play a paladin. | |
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Kepler
Sneak
62 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 2:41 PM |
| There was a similar situation in a game of mine from a long time ago. I was a elf fighter/magic-user and I put some orcs to sleep with a spell during battle. After the battle (when the rest of the orcs were dead) I decided to execute the sleeping orcs. The Paladin in the group objected and tried to arrest me for murder. I resisted, we fought, and I died.
Next session I had a new character. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/08/2006 7:15 PM |
| The *most* widely misunderstood section in D&D is the alignment section (IMHO). People often offer theirpersonal opinions on what alignment should be seen to be in their opinion. However, the D&D system does not operate based upon opinion. It works based upon (very flawed) alignment descriptions. I suggest that people reread the alignment section about once a year to remind themselves of how broadly an alignment can be seen ...
As for this situation:
Paladins swear to a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness (per the PHB). What is that code in your campaign? Ask your DM what that code requires. Then, ask yourself how your character feels about each aspect of the code. That should help you come to understand the character you're playing, and help answer questions like these ... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 7:28 PM |
| And note there is certainly room in LG for summary execution of captured opponents; it depends more on the ethos of the paladin's church and the state of the law of the land than it does on "LG always acts like this" type thinking.
Example - my (grey elf, so there are cultural factors too) paladin in a homebrew game was justified and not punished in any way when he summarily executed, without trial, an orcish footsoldier from a demonic occupying army in a subjugated country. There were no non-evil local authorities to turn him over to, letting him go would have revealed our location to overwhelming force, and would have also been releasing a known participant in wartime atrocities with no punishment.
I actually am fairly sure that I would have been in more danger of losing my paladinhood if I had let the orc go.
Of course, if I was a paladin of a more peaceful religion, maybe things would be different. | |
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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
Sydney, Australia
| | 03/09/2006 1:39 AM |
| Well, the matter has been resolved. I could have gone the Judge Dredd route, but then I'd have been fighting three of the other 4 PCs - not a good outcome. So I decided that I better stick with them and save their souls, lest they become like the scum they just murdered. I was also committed to a quest to find the stolen bones and re-inter them with some dignity.
Along the way we found the person to whom the bones were delivered, and my Paladin accused and tried him, with the rest of the party acting as jury. Due process having been followed, I executed the ringleader necromancer (Filge) on charges of grave robbing, attempted murder, necromancy, conspiracy, necrophilia (evidence suggested he was having relations with an female elf zombie - some amusing roleplaying here, and Age of Worms module 1 players should know what I'm talking about), and trespass.
The miscreants in our group love the 'revised' version of Paladin. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/11/2006 7:26 PM |
| This is a good chunk of why I'd always talk with the DM beforehand before using the standard LG Paladin. On the other hand, there are other alternatives. While a Paladin is an 'absolute or nearly so' representative of an ideal, he doesn't have to be an extremist in all situations. Just consistent with that ideal.
Another alternative is using Paladin Alignment Variants, which are open SRD content (and also in the Unearthed Arcana book). Specifically, the Paladin of Freedom is Chaotic Good and can be played without being an 'anarchist' (to use it in its most common light; said common light isn't technically a correct definition, mind). Of course, as these are Variant Classes, their use needs to be run by the DM too.
Still, a PoF is devoted to good, but more flexible. Of course, a Paladin of Freedom technically has a problem with authority, but any good DM should let a PoF use lawful means so long as they are not anti-Chaotic or anti-Good. That is, Good should be allowed to partially override Chaotic in a PoF's case on a situation-by-situation basis, just as with any other CG-aligned character.
Does this mean "Paladin powers without RP restrictions?" -- Unfair question. D&D is half wargame, half story engine. D&D Minis Skirmish proves this. Put a Fighter alongside a Paladin, what's the difference? Both are about as powerful in melee. The Fighter can do more special techniques more readily via bonus feats, like Whirlwind/Spring Attack/etc. The Paladin trades that capability in, getting spells and improved defenses in return. It balances out, in terms of gameplay design.
Does this mean "Paladin powers without RP restrictions?" -- No, not a typo; asking it twice. It means easier, more conductive restrictions. Since RP restrictions are generally a nebulous way to usefully hinder a character's power in D&D, this isn't as bad as it may seem. It's basically the Paladin's abilities with fewer, easier restrictions and thus less potential for party friction. Some DMs may like that perk. | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 03/11/2006 7:50 PM |
| | Glad to hear you stuck it out. Having a paladin walk away after the first session would have left a bad impression of paladins on the other players (they're all pouty whiners, etc). I try to give any paladin I play some quirk that challenges the "all paladins have sticks-up their-butt" preconceptions other players probably have. Like a fondness for strong drink. Afterall, if the LG dwarf fighter can knock 'em back, why can't the LG paladin? | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 03/11/2006 7:53 PM |
| You could just play a forgiving, patient Paladin and give the players a chance to change, and lead them by example. I think that's the way Paladins should be, not a mindless zealot who can't interact with people who's moral codes (or lack thereof) he doesn't agree with.
I don't like the way the PHB depicts the Paladin class. They come off as arrogant and condescending when they should be selfless, patient and forgiving. People tend to play the lawful part out, or even overemphasize it, and completely forget about the good part. | |
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