| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
    
Australia
 | | 03/07/2006 1:31 AM |
| Finished it at last!
http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2970172
Enjoy! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 03/07/2006 10:48 AM |
| | Great review Merric. Wow, 5 stars. It has been languishing on my bookshelf for months now. I will have to give it a closer look. | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/07/2006 9:54 PM |
| I've seen it in action and it's a very nice system. [:)]
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 1:57 AM |
| | Nice review Merric | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
Agent Oracle
Skirmisher
19 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 6:27 PM |
| My only problem with incarnum is that it allows Incarnum users to perform spell-like effects with no limitations on the number of times these can function. kind of like how a warlock can have a handful of spells at will, an Incarnum user can "get" one for every item slot (with sufficient incarnum)
They are markedly more powerful than psionicists, perhaps not in terms of damage inflicted per round, but certainly they outlast everyone when it comes to endurance. With higher hit points and a better melee advancement than a arcane caster, an almost comicly easy to-hit role required for most of their spell effects (Seriously, most opponents in the classic MM have an AC of 10-12 for touch attacks.) it just seems too powerful unless the GM starts giving every enemy levels in Ninja and Monk.
I think i found a more cynical review down at the bottom of the page, Two reviewers gave it four stars, and one gave it two. Being the optimist I am, i wanted to see why he thought so poorly of the system, and investigated.
In order to get a cool power, all you have to do is give up a different cool power. By shifting Essentia (which can be done as a swift action) you can increase your AC, increase your ability to hit, give you a higher skill bonus, or even grant spell-like powers.
Now the "shift essentia around as a swift action" thing bothered me. swift actions are about as close to free actions as you can get without actually being free. They slip right in to any combat round for a fraction of the cost of a quickened ability.
Shifting the bonuses around also bothered me... I mean, an incarnum user could start a round with heavy offence, attack, then swiftly shift to defense at the end of his round, then at the start of his next round swift-shift back to offence. A soulknife takes a full-round action to change his blade into something bigger, or eight hours to reassign their weapon's abilities... it just seems unbalanced that they could switch themselves around so fast and so often.
And while a Psionicist MUST have a particular discipline (and therefore, a particular focus) all most incarnum users need is a particular alignment, which does little, if anything, to hinder their spell advancement. Not to mention the lack of limitations on their chackra items. People who think the warlock's ranged touch attack is broken because it deals multiple d6's at range haven't seen "lighning gauntlet" yet.
Overall, I find that incarnum is rather souless and bland. While psionics has a history and a lot of backstory to draw on, Incarnum comes across as a lot of fancy terms that add practically nothing to the game. | |
"Observation changes the observed. Never quite enough to stop them from walking into a trap though..." | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 7:02 PM |
| Please note how Combat Expertise works... it's little different to incarnum.
Kamakaze Midget's review is a particularly bad one because at several points he betrays that he doesn't actually understand how Magic of Incarnum works.
quote:
Shifting the bonuses around also bothered me... I mean, an incarnum user could start a round with heavy offence, attack, then swiftly shift to defense at the end of his round, then at the start of his next round swift-shift back to offence.
Let's look at this again.
Round 1: Attack at full, shift to defense.
* defensive mode during enemy turn *
Round 2: Shift to offense, Attack at full
* offensive mode during enemy turn *
It only works one in two turns.
quote:
a soulknife takes a full-round action to change his blade into something bigger, or eight hours to reassign their weapon's abilities... it just seems unbalanced that they could switch themselves around so fast and so often.
The Incarnate takes 8 hours rest + 1 hour(?) preparation to shape their soulmelds for the day. At higher levels they get the ability to 1/day (or maybe 3/day at very high levels) to swap out soulmelds during the day, but if they do so they don't have access to the chakra binds.
The essentia shifting may be at will, but it doesn't change the basic powers they have available.
quote:
Seriously, most opponents in the classic MM have an AC of 10-12 for touch attacks.)
Also quite seriously, most higher-level monsters have Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance, both of which muck up incarnate attacks.
The fighter has "at will" powers, btw. He's able to smack someone with a sword all day long (as long as someone replenishes his hit points). The same applies to the Incarnate.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 7:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Agent Oracle
They are markedly more powerful than psionicists, perhaps not in terms of damage inflicted per round, but certainly they outlast everyone when it comes to endurance.
The same as the warlock, and warlocks are by no means overpowered.
quote:
Originally posted by Agent Oracle
Shifting the bonuses around also bothered me... I mean, an incarnum user could start a round with heavy offence, attack, then swiftly shift to defense at the end of his round, then at the start of his next round swift-shift back to offence. A soulknife takes a full-round action to change his blade into something bigger, or eight hours to reassign their weapon's abilities... it just seems unbalanced that they could switch themselves around so fast and so often.
You can use Total Defense the same way, (defense one round, attack the next) and it isn't overpowered. And the Soulknife is a seriously underpowered class. Way worse than even the bard and warlock. So I don't think it is fair to compare Incarnum to the Soulknife. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 7:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Agent Oracle
My only problem with incarnum is that it allows Incarnum users to perform spell-like effects with no limitations on the number of times these can function. kind of like how a warlock can have a handful of spells at will, an Incarnum user can "get" one for every item slot (with sufficient incarnum)
One point here: spell-like effects, yes. However, they're hardly the big effects of the wizard or psion.
Fireball is completely alien to the Incarnate.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 8:43 PM |
| Not to mention that the DCs on save-based Incarnum effects are spam. Or that to really fire up their Soulmelds, they need to bind them. And a Chakra Bound meld occupies the MAGIC ITEM SLOT for that part of the body. Then note that some of the most powerful soulmelds get bound to the throat Chakra. You know, the amulet slot, the slot that already has insane competition for what goes there?
I've got an Incarnate running around in my Eberron game currently, and I've observed no balance issues with him. And Agent Oracle, if you think they're more powerful than psions, then you've never seen a psion in full flight, dumping his maximum output round after round in one combat*.
As for flavour and it being soulless and bland, as opposed to Psionics, my response is do your job as a GM and PUT SOME THERE.
*For the record, I am not really one of those people who considers psionics broken. However, I do think that GMs need to be careful using psionic NPCs, as given that they only exist for three rounds, their ability to deliver maximum output in those rounds can be deadly. Initiates of the Sevenfold Veils are even worse, dumping all 7 veils in one combat is a TPK waiting to happen. | |
Support awesome games: Play Hecatomb!
8-Bit Chibi Goths forever!
Champion of Mephistopheles
"Sorry! I was tryin' to open these beans!"
My Have/Want List, (Updated July 6 2004, will be updated soon)
| |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 9:05 PM |
| Here's the totemist for my MoH game tomorrow:
Riley Stelon
Male Human Totemist 4/Barbarian 2/Totem Rager 1
CG Medium Humanoid
Init +0; Senses low-light vision; Spot +10; Listen +6
Languages Common
AC 21 (+2 enhancement, +5 armour, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 20
hp 66 (7 HD)
Resistances +4 bonus on saves against abilities of magical beasts
Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +2
Speed 40 ft (8 squares)
Melee 2 claws +8/+8 (1d6+3 plus 4d4 acid)
Ranged +1 light crossbow +7 (1d8+1/19-20, 80 ft)
Base Atk +5; Grp +8
Atk Options Cleave, Power Attack
Special Actions Rage 1/day
Combat Gear 4 potions of cure light wounds
Essentia Pool 4; Capacity 2 (3 for totem bind); Chakra Binds 1; Soulmelds 4
Essentia Investment
Basilisk Mask 0 (low-light vision, darkvision 0+30'e)
Cobalt Rage 0
Kruthik Claws 4 (+4+2e competence bonus to Hide & Move Silently; claw attacks +1d4 acid per e; bound to totem chakra; capacity 4)
Shadow Mantle 0 (+4+2e Listen checks)
Wormtail Belt 0 (+2+e enhancement bonus to natural armour)
Abilities Str 16, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
SQ chakra binds (totem), fast movement, totem's protection, totem rage, wild empathy +4 (+6 vs kruthik)
Feats Cleave, Cobalt Rage, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Power Attack(b)
Skills Handle Animal +9; Hide +12; Intimidate +4; Knowledge (nature) +8; Listen +6; Move Silently +12; Spellcraft +7; Spot +10; Survival +11 (+13 outdoors)
Possessions combat gear plus +1 chain shirt, +1 ring of protection, +2 amulet of con, +1 cloak of resistance, +1 light crossbow, +2 gloves of ogre strength, heward's handy haversack, 550 gp
Totem's Protection (Ex): +4 bonus to saves against abilities of magical beasts
Totem Rage: Capacity of Cobalt Rage increases by 1; gain 1 essentia when raging (and may be put into Cobalt Rage as a free action).
When raging, Riley has the following altered statistics:
AC 19, touch 10, flat-footed 18
hp 80 (7 HD)
Fort +14, Will +5
Melee 2 claws +10/+10 (1d6+6 plus 4d4 acid)
Grp +10
Essentia Investment
Basilisk Mask 0 (low-light vision, darkvision 0+30'e)
Cobalt Rage 1 (+1 melee damage and will saves when raging, capacity 3)
Kruthik Claws 4 (+4+2e competence bonus to Hide & Move Silently; claw attacks +1d4 acid per e; bound to totem chakra; capacity 4)
Shadow Mantle 0 (+4+2e Listen checks)
Wormtail Belt 0 (+2+e enhancement bonus to natural armour)
Abilities Str 20, Con 22
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 9:26 PM |
| I'll say the damage output seems a little on the high side for a level 7 melee character, although the attack bonus is pretty weak and I'm not seeing that the character has any recourse in the face of DR.
I don't know the system, but if that's an optimized build it doesn't look too bad, power-wise. The damage potential is similar to that of a sneak attacking, dual-wielding rogue.
I actually think it looks like it will fall behind as you get higher in level, since you're not going to be getting iterative attacks with natural weapons. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 9:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I'll say the damage output seems a little on the high side for a level 7 melee character, although the attack bonus is pretty weak and I'm not seeing that the character has any recourse in the face of DR.
Acid damage works well there. [:)]
quote:
I actually think it looks like it will fall behind as you get higher in level, since you're not going to be getting iterative attacks with natural weapons.
Indeed. At higher levels, the totemist begins to look at binding some breath weapons. They're not quite worth it yet.
Consider this 7th level Barbarian, which would also be legal:
HP 74;
+1 flaming greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+7 plus 1d6 fire/19-20)
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14
Extra Rage, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Raging:
HP 88
+1 flaming greatsword +15/+10 (2d6+10 plus 1d6 fire/19-20)
Whilst raging (which is 3 times/day), we have an average of about 20 damage. The Totemist raging (1/day) is dealing 19 average damage, with worse attack bonuses.
Riley could be optimised more, and perhaps have some better soulmelds (Blink Shirt is fun...), but I think he's good enough to play as is. [:)]
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Agent Oracle
Skirmisher
19 Posts
| | 03/08/2006 10:11 PM |
| Hoo boy, lots of arguments to counter-quote.
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
One point here: spell-like effects, yes. However, they're hardly the big effects of the wizard or psion.
Fireball is completely alien to the Incarnate.
I wish to remind you of the lightning gauntlets, which inflict d6 damage and is scalable up to 20d6 damage on a ranged touch attack. It might not be the "everything in a radius" damage of a fireball, but then again it's also not the "unuseable if your allies have closed for melee and you don't have a good drop point" of the fireball.
quote:
originally posted by Testament
I've got an Incarnate running around in my Eberron game currently, and I've observed no balance issues with him. And Agent Oracle, if you think they're more powerful than psions, then you've never seen a psion in full flight, dumping his maximum output round after round in one combat*.
au contrare. I run a psion. I've BEEN the psion who has gone airborn and dumped everything he had into the battle, round after round... and that's about as long as i lasted, two or three rounds. See, Psions are a double-edged sword. they can inflict insane amounts of damage very quickly, but on the other side of the coin, they burn out much, much faster than any other caster class. A psion does not faire well against unknowns, and act even worse If you want the psion to Overchannel Mind Thrust every round, they are going to be burnt out in a matter of a few turns, not to mention suffering from the self-inflicted damage. A psion has an extremely limited amount of energy each day, which, once gone, is gone. And since psionic power's don't auto-level with the power of the psion, one could argue that a psion has to work harder to achieve the same results of a arcane caster.
Now, the Incarnum users, they have no problem dealing with the wave after wave of enemies, since their atacks are ranged and at will. A well-planed incarnum user can be flying and spitting long streams of acid from far out of range of a bowshot without being at risk of running empty. They might not have to pitch fireballs, but only having to hit a very low AC gives them the benefit of time.
quote:
Originally posted by gristlemane
The same as the warlock, and warlocks are by no means overpowered.
Ahh, but the warlock's maximum damage output from arcane fire pales in comparison to the output atainable by the ranged-touch effects of the incarnum user. Please refer to the warlock's damage progression on that thing. An incarnum user can inflict +Xd6 where X equals their level as an incarnum user with any of their ranged touch weapons. A warock gets, is it third or quarter progression with arcane fire? (don't have the book in front of me)
quote:
Originally said by Gristlemane
You can use Total Defense the same way, (defense one round, attack the next) and it isn't overpowered. And the Soulknife is a seriously underpowered class. Way worse than even the bard and warlock. So I don't think it is fair to compare Incarnum to the Soulknife.
But total defense only adds +4 to armor class, reguardless of evel, and it's not a swift action to change to total defense, it's a Standard action, meaning you can't attack then go total defense. you can attack and move, then next round go total defense and move, but not attack.
Meanwhile, an incarnum user can pull off an Xd6 attack with an item like Lightning gauntlets, then in the middle of their round AFTER attacking shunt all those points to their armor class, raising it up by X points... and THEN move before ending their turn. And if it's in their favor, they can STAY in that high-AC setup and still get a ranged-touch attack off (at a reduced damage value), which is more than a fighter can do since you can't perform a full attack while in total defense. or, if it suits the user, he can shunt all those AC points back to his damage values at the tip of the hat.
My example of "high damage -> high AC -> High Damage" modes was simply to show how easily they could shuffle their focus around to suit their situation, unlike, say a traditional arcane caster (let's argue sorcerer) who may bemoan casting mage armor and shield when nothing has come close to him, as it cost him other, more damage-oriented spells, the Incarnum has no such qualms, as their magic effectively comes at no cost for a steady output.
as for "soulknife is underpowered" I personally think that the fact that a soulknife gets a +10 (effective) weapon by the time they hit level 20 makes them about even for the game. I mean, they can have an effective +2 bastard sword with a 30' range by the time they make 5th level. not half bad for a single-weapon focused class. They seem pretty balanced to me now that I've studied the XPH a bit more. They just seem weak because they have a lower damage / round capability than the Psions they are surrounded by.
quote:
Someone else said...
The fighter has "at will" powers, btw. He's able to smack someone with a sword all day long (as long as someone replenishes his hit points). The same applies to the Incarnate.p
Ah, i see you allready self contradicted. in order for a fighter to activate their "at will" powers (which, arguably EVERYONE has, just to a lesser extent) they have to either (a) have a sufficient supply of projectiles or (b) walk into melee range. The first option is basicly throwing money away (a very low cost in gold per shot, but it does add up, especially for arrow-fiend builds.) And the second is (dah-dah-dah) where they encounter a little effect called the "horrible rape radius".
As you level up, progressvely more and more enemies have a reach which exceeds the adjacedent spaces. sometimes by 10 or 15 feet. Trolls, as an example, almost allways get an attack of opportunity before the fighter can close and "at will" them with his melee weapon of choice.
Meanwhile, the incarnum user is spared both the cost of being a projectile attacker (measured in spells spent for casters, power points for Psions, and arrows lost for conventional attackers) and the necessity of being a melee fighter. Effectively, their principal attacks are free. While a fighter has to strike his opponent's full armor class (barring any stunning, proning, flanking, etc.), which, as the CR's increase, becomes progressively higher, Incarnum users can actually look forward to LOWER Armor class opponents as their CR's increase (take dragons for example: as they age, their Touch AC (what incarnum users have to hit) drops because they loose their dexterity modifers and increase in size category.)
Additionally, you brought up another key point: Buffing. The fighter requires it because he willingly walks into the "horrible rape radius" to dish out damage and hold back foes. Meanwhile, it is unnecessary for the incarnum user to recieve any, ince he will rarely enter into melee, and if he is forced into a close proximity fight, he still can take advantage of the low armor class of his attackers or buff his own armor class to be fairly high.
quote:
MerricB siad this one:
Also quite seriously, most higher-level monsters have Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance, both of which muck up incarnate attacks.
Almost done...
(ahem) Spell resistance and energy resistences muck up ALL casters, however, the incarnum dosn't waste anything discovering that creature X is immune to lightning damage, other than time. If the creature appears unscathed, they can just shunt their points to another place that they might have prepared (like acid from the spitting thing) and try again, same damage capabilities, different damage type. As for spell resistance, again, incarnum users don't loose anything but time in discovering spell resistance. Imagine, if you will, a party fighting... i don't really know here, something with high SR... let's say a "guy of magic resistance". Well, the sorcerer or mage, every shot is a gamble. they only have so many fireballs, so many lightning bolts. every time they shoot one off, and it fails, that's one less spell they have to combat the anti-spell thingy in front of them. on the other hand, incarnum? Just keep plugging away... sooner or later he will get through the SR, then it's just blast, rinse, repeat.
MAN that's a long-ass reply! I'm going to bed.. hold all my flames. | |
"Observation changes the observed. Never quite enough to stop them from walking into a trap though..." | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/08/2006 11:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Agent Oracle
I wish to remind you of the lightning gauntlets, which inflict d6 damage and is scalable up to 20d6 damage on a ranged touch attack.
Stop right there.
Go, get a copy of Magic of Incarnum, and look at it.
Then come back.
Lightning Gauntlets can do *at most* 9d6 electricity damage as a melee touch attack at 20th level, or add 9d6 electricity damage to one regular melee attack with a weapon.
quote:
A well-planed incarnum user can be flying and spitting long streams of acid from far out of range of a bowshot without being at risk of running empty
Dissolving spittle? With a fixed range of 30 feet? Well, I suppose if you have very small bows they might be out of range of bowshot...
quote:
An incarnum user can inflict +Xd6 where X equals their level as an incarnum user with any of their ranged touch weapons
At this point, I see you have no conception of how Incarnum works at all. Have you even read the book? | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Agent Oracle
au contrare. I run a psion. I've BEEN the psion who has gone airborn and dumped everything he had into the battle, round after round... and that's about as long as i lasted, two or three rounds. See, Psions are a double-edged sword. they can inflict insane amounts of damage very quickly, but on the other side of the coin, they burn out much, much faster than any other caster class. A psion does not faire well against unknowns, and act even worse If you want the psion to Overchannel Mind Thrust every round, they are going to be burnt out in a matter of a few turns, not to mention suffering from the self-inflicted damage. A psion has an extremely limited amount of energy each day, which, once gone, is gone. And since psionic power's don't auto-level with the power of the psion, one could argue that a psion has to work harder to achieve the same results of a arcane caster.
2 or 3 rounds? I'm not sure where this is coming from.
Let's take, say, a level 10 psion as our example character. We'll give her an 18 intelligence, since that should be achievable between gear and stats for even a low point buy character at that point.
A level 10 psion has a base of 88 power points per day. An 18 intelligence gives us 20 bonus power points at level 10, so we've got 108 power points.
Using energy missile, this psion can blast away doing 10d6+10 damage to up to 5 enemies per turn for 10 rounds and toss in an 8 pointer for another round before running out of power points. I haven't bothered with overchannel in this case, but even with that in the mix you can only spend 12 power points per round, meaning the psion can still blast away full-bore for 9 rounds even before running out of points.
What if we change the level of the psion? At level 5, we'll say we have only a 16 intelligence. That gives us 29 power points, still enough to go with 5 rounds of full strength energy missiles and one more round with a 4 pointer.
How about 15th level? We're probably up to a 20 int now. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out what the psion can do with her 232 power points.
2 or 3 rounds is waaaaaaay underestimating the psion. The numbers get even crazier for wilders. I am not a fan of balance arguments that don't get into the actual math involved. Psions are much, much stronger than you're giving them credit for, and frankly based on Merric's response to your last post I would guess you're way off base on the incarnum classes as well. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| 
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/09/2006 3:51 PM |
| I spent about 30 minutes with this book a month ago. I thumbed through it ... and decided not to buy a copy.
The reason: The barrier to entry into my campaign worlds is too high to allow such a peripheral product. Although incarnum is a new concept, I don't think it is too different from the norm to be easy to implement while simultaneously being too similar to standard magic items to be worth investing the time to learn in detail, much less the time it'd take to explain it to other players/DMs.
YMMV ... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
| |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |