Agent Oracle
Skirmisher
19 Posts
    
 | | 03/15/2006 7:36 AM |
| Hey folks, one of them members of another forum is a necromancer who, apparently, read a recent issue of DRAGON, where it told him how to get more out of his animate dead spell.
It suggests using "polymorph object" on an ordinary pile of skeletons to turn them into a bigger, meaner skeleton, such as that of a pit fiend.
So he can animate dead on the skeleton of a pit fiend.
That part makes sense, skeletons pay pretty heavy price in terms of loosing special abilities and so forth which would leave the Pit fiend with a lower armor class, fewer hit points, practically no special abilities or special attacks, etc. It seems fair, partially because the skeleton would only have a little over 100 hp, and could be distroyed or what have you by a good turning check.
THen, he started wanting to add templates to the pit fiend BEFORE he created it.
He wanted to make the pit fiend "half-dragon (red dragon)", then "awaken undead" on it, so it would regain it's special attacks.
well, a half-dragon is a +4 Level adjustment, but does not increase hit dice... is that going to change his ability to raise the "pseudo" half-dragon pit fiend?
Then he said he wanted to make his half-dragon pit fiend an Paragon... which is a +15 Level adjustment! There is NO way i'm giving him this stuff!
On top of all of this, he's just going crazy, he thrwe in Half-celestial as an additional template on top of this, well, here's the stats he submitted me:
Half-Dragon (Red)/half-celestial/paragon/ Pit Fiend Skeleton
Size/Type: Large Undead (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 18d12 +72 (189 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 120 ft. (24 squares)
Armor Class: 47 (-1 size, +12 Dex, +2 natural, +12 insight bonus, +12 luck bonus ), touch 21, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+58
Attack: Claw +32 melee (2d8+23)
Full Attack: 2 claws +64 melee (2d8+51) and 2 wings +59 melee (2d6+25) and bite +59 melee (4d6+25 plus poison) and tail slap +59 melee (2d8+25)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d8+43, improved grab
Special Qualities: Immune to cold and fire, DR 5/bludgeoning,darkvision 60 ft, resistance to acid 20 and electricity 10, regeneration 5, see in darkness, spell resistance 33, Fast healing 20, turn resistance +2, +2 save to "control undead.
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +25, Will +21
Abilities: Str 72, Dex 50, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: None
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Any, usually a lawful evil-aligned plane or warm mountain
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 19-36 HD (Large); 37-54 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -
I KNOW this is wrong, just looking, there is no way this creature is correct. can anyone take it on their shoulders to attempt a PROPER half-dragon pit fiend skeleton for this poor clod? | |
"Observation changes the observed. Never quite enough to stop them from walking into a trap though..." | |
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2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 8:34 AM |
| Well, I don't have time to stat it up for you right now, but I do have some advice. In fact, 2 words of advice:
Command Undead
If this thing is frustrating you as a DM, it's the perfect way to show him the dangers of playing with necromancy, without being spiteful. It's an Elegant DM Solution :)
My favorite part is this for skeletons:
A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders. | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1687 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 9:51 AM |
| IIRC, this is why the polymorph spells have been "banned" in most organized play.
As a DM, I would rule that sure, you want to polymorph into a larger object (I'd have to check spell description first on volumes/sizes etc) you can. But just because you've changed the form, added wing bones, larger and thicker bones, etc, that doesn't mean that it ever was, or will ever be, related to a half-dragon celestial dire tauric tarrasque or whatever he comes up with. It's still a pile of bones, and that's all it's going to be. Awaken undead will grant it the abilities it had before he polymorphed it, not after.
Or, research a 9th (or higher) spell to do what you're trying to do. Gamebreaking spells simply mean they're at the wrong level (well not really, but it might be true).
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LargeMarmot
Sergeant
463 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 3:08 PM |
| | Well he couldnt really make the bones into a pit friend but in the 2nd ed MM there is a bigger skeleton made from bones. It's like CR 3 as opposed to CR 1 or something small like that. I'd let him do that if he really wants to get the most out of it but make sure there is a penalty either money or xp wise of some sort. As a DM I always make my PCs pay for what they get. | |
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Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 3:40 PM |
| Why a pit fiend? Dragon skeletons are where it's at.
Oh, and hit your player with a two-by-four. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/15/2006 3:44 PM |
| | I think it's rather silly to be able to polymorph a pile of bones into a powerful dead monster and then animate it somehow. I wouldn't allow it. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 4:21 PM |
| | I'd just like to point out that if it's half-dragon and half-celestial, how is it any part Pit Fiend? There's no room left! | |
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LargeMarmot
Sergeant
463 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 4:47 PM |
| | Here's another idea. What about a bone golem? | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 03/15/2006 4:55 PM |
| I could see it being used to turn a bunch of medium sized skeletons into a large or huge skeleton. Not unlike the giant zombie/flesh golem in the Clark Ashton Smith story "The Colossus of Ylourgne". That whole turning it into Pit Fiend bones and adding all of those templates is rubbish. I'd be tempted to smack the player myself, but here are some suggestions.
1) Polymorphing the bones into a Pit fiend skeleton attracts the attention of some hellish inteligence which co-opts control of the bones.
2) The conflicting infernal, necromatic and celestial energies will cause a massive explosion, tearing say a rift in the planes and summoning an uncontrolled Nightwalker.
3) Dart in the neck.
quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
I think it's rather silly to be able to polymorph a pile of bones into a powerful dead monster and then animate it somehow. I wouldn't allow it.
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thedip
Sergeant
737 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 5:26 PM |
| Hi there,
When I run games where people can cast polymorph, I make it a rule that they have to have encountered the monster before and if they want the full powers they have to have done some serious study.
If a person polymorphs a mule into a dragon, but has never seen one before, they may get a big lizard with wings (that can't fly).
In game terms, I ask the person make a knowledge arcana/religion/planes/etc roll (you decide on the DC) before they can polymorph one creature into another - and have it work.
This way you still get the power of the polymorph spell but with the DM having some control over what appears. The same would happen if someone wanted to polymorph a dragon into a mule!
Cheers
Thedip | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/15/2006 5:33 PM |
| 1)Neither the half-dragon nor half-celestial templates can be added to a skeleton (note they can only be added to "living" creatures).
2)The half-celestial template cannot be added to a Pit Fiend (can only be added to creatures of "non-evil" alignment).
3)Unless the player is 18th level he can't polymorph a skeleton into a pit-fiend skeleton (max Hit Dice = caster's level).
4)There's a logic loophole of casting awaken undead on a monster before its undead
quote:
originally posted by Agent Oracle
He wanted to make the pit fiend "half-dragon (red dragon)", then "awaken undead" on it
I'm not familiar with "Awaken Undead" but I'm willing to bet that there are restrictions built into it (providing its available in an official source).
5)You're the DM. Just say No. [:D]
This is just a ridiculous example. The level adjustment alone puts that thing around ECL 40. I thought my players were bad.
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 8:33 PM |
| | Making a pit-fiend Half-Celestial is like making Abraham Lincoln Half-Toaster. | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/15/2006 8:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
Making a pit-fiend Half-Celestial is like making Abraham Lincoln Half-Toaster.
Except Abraham Lincoln as half-toaster makes more sense [:P] | |
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Agent Oracle
Skirmisher
19 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 7:20 AM |
| well guys, thanks, but i'm afraid it's too late.
You see, i am not the game master for this individual. the Game master for him happens to have approved the design: and now he, as a 9th level necromancer aquired the services of an 18th level caster and had his little wet dream made. Apparently this is how it went down:
He came to me for advice on the build.
I told him what things were wrong with it, how it SHOULD set out, and he went crazy.
Apparently he and his party were in a 'necromancer city" (WHen a location can be dscribed by one particular school of magic, you KNOW it's a quality setting.) and the GM just approved the kid's design, sight unseen.
HE's been banned from the message board where this originated. | |
"Observation changes the observed. Never quite enough to stop them from walking into a trap though..." | |
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thedip
Sergeant
737 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 8:02 AM |
| Maybe you should all club together and replace his toys as he throws them out of the pram!
As a DM I would not allow anything in my games, sight unseen, and I trust my players implicitly.
Cheers
Thedip
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/16/2006 10:20 AM |
| | He's not a power gamer, he's a munchkin. [xx(] | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 03/16/2006 2:38 PM |
| | I thought stats capped at 50...How could it have 72 STR, more than Talos,Tempus and other Gods. 50 DEX on such a large creature is also preposterous and like everyone, I cannot see how he can have both half-templates and even the half-celestial, since Skeletons and Pit Fiends are evil. If I were the DM' I would make that player "forget" or have the Polymorph spell "sealed" from him... | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/16/2006 5:21 PM |
| I hate to say it but I'd look for a different gaming group if you're a player in that group[:(]
Munchkin players combined with "sounds like" mediocre DM makes for a very bad combination.
I suppose on the other hand there's something to be said for having a pet deity as a 9th-level character [:o]
I imagine that the DM will likely rapidly learn the error of his ways.... | |
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Agent Oracle
Skirmisher
19 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 6:14 PM |
| I'm allready telling him how much trouble he's gotten himself into, and right now i'm reccomending things for him to do about it.
My suggestions are as follows:
1. Evil enemy cleric NPC hits it with "rebuke" and auto-succedes, Rebuked skeleton eats munchkin first
2. When the skeleton is awakened the first thing it does is go: "Moooo"... some demon bones, looks like he got had.
3. The "polymorph object" spell wears off in 12 hours. | |
"Observation changes the observed. Never quite enough to stop them from walking into a trap though..." | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/16/2006 7:17 PM |
| | There's also the probability that a 9th level wizard has no hope of ever controlling something that nasty. Sure he gets it. It plays along for a little while then eats the party while they sleep [}:)] | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1363 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 03/16/2006 7:44 PM |
| Ah...Players...
I've got an artificer/Effigy master in my game that manages to drive me nuts with all the add ons he's found for the constructs he builds.
His latest is this enhanced adamantium choker with an imp like robot riding shotgun and a swamp of adamantium bats.
I wonder if he is suprised when I squash these things every few sessions and he ends up having to go two or three levels without a construct because it takes so much time to build these things. | |
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easytiger1
Warrior
231 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 8:06 PM |
| | Remember you are the GM you have final say. If he has a hissy fit then tell him he is not welcome in your group, thant creature is simple rediculous(you can tell him i said so ;)). Polymorph should not be like a player able to through the monstermanuals and make up his shopping list. Has he even thought about trying to get into good or neutral cities with that abomination in tow, they would not stand idily by and allow it. You got to make a stand about it or he will just keep walking all over you. Sorry if i sound angry but its the one thing i dislike about 3.5, they emphasis has gone off creative play and into more power up stat based games. | |
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Stabmastaarson
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 9:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
Making a pit-fiend Half-Celestial is like making Abraham Lincoln Half-Toaster.
Holy crap that's funny. I'm going to make that my email sig if it's ok with you.
Wow, what a sterling example of powergaming at its most retarded. As silly as the player's request is, what is even more disgusting is the fact that the DM just casually ok'd this pile of plop.
It'll make for a fun story at my Saturday game anyway. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:29 AM |
| | I've had a few PC's make undead before, but they never went overboard. The problem with undead is they can be controlled from outside sources or sometimes be turned against. I would go from that angle. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/17/2006 10:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Agent Oracle:
1. Evil enemy cleric NPC hits it with "rebuke" and auto-succedes, Rebuked skeleton eats munchkin first
ROTFLMAO. That's priceless. There is also the possibility that the local Good Guys Guild will take notice and want that monstrosity destroyed. I could have fun with this as a DM. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 2:41 PM |
| OMG... I have to agree, find a new gaming group, that one is FUBAR. One reeeeaaallllly bad call by a GM can really make a game beyond repair.
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 8:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Stabmastaarson
quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
Making a pit-fiend Half-Celestial is like making Abraham Lincoln Half-Toaster.
Holy crap that's funny. I'm going to make that my email sig if it's ok with you.
Wow, what a sterling example of powergaming at its most retarded. As silly as the player's request is, what is even more disgusting is the fact that the DM just casually ok'd this pile of plop.
It'll make for a fun story at my Saturday game anyway.
Feel free! | |
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