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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
    
 | | 03/15/2006 5:32 PM |
| So yeah, still learning and reading and all that jazz.
I'd like some input on how this CR works. I am going to run another 3.5 adventure for my group soon and the place calls for Owlbears, which are CR4; #1 to me they don't fit the feel of the place and #2 I only have 1 mini of them [:p] so I was wondering...Could I technically use any CR4 monster from the MMs? I was thinking Minotaurs but wanted to know if it was as simple as that. Mino are better at tactics and have armor/weapons/etc, so yeah CR4 but does it really translate just that easy?
Any input, even one as brief as 'YES' would be appreciated [:D] | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 5:42 PM |
| Yes.
An appropriate CR (that is, a CR = to the party's average level) should use up 1/4 of a party of four's resources (hp, spells, etc). So any CR 4 is an equal challenge to any other CR 4. | |
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jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 7:30 PM |
| I talk to you every night in IRC... i have been DMing for years ... you couldn't have asked me? [:(]
Taliesin is right. | | | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 7:35 PM |
| | Yes, theoretically any CR 4 monster is as tough as any other CR 4 monster. Just be aware that if your party is a little different from normal the CR's aren't as accurate. For example, if you have an all arcane party then golems are way tougher, or if you don't have a cleric then undead become somewhat tougher. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/15/2006 7:50 PM |
| If you're starting out as a DM, replacing one CR 4 monster with any other CR 4 monster is a fine replacement.
Once you get some experience, you may wish to pay attention to the recommednations for the environment that creatures are typically located within when considering how you place monsters. For instance, owl bears are typically found in temperate forests while minotaurs are typically found underground. (See the monster descriptions - specifically the recommended environment). These are only recommendations for where you might find a beastie, however, so don't put too much weight into the environment description.
Further, you may wish to pay heed to the type of threat the creature creates. A good dungeon will vex the players in a variety of ways. If every encounter is a melee beat down, things can tend to get boring. Accordingly, it can be wise to make sure that you're maintaining a variety of different creatures in the combats. If I were to replace a creature, I might want to see if I could preserve the type of challenge. Accordingly, I'd look for an animalistic melee beater to take the place of the owlbear. A brown bear or (dumb) otyugh might be nice fits there ... | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 9:13 PM |
| | While any CR4 creature is supposedly the same as another one, you have to remember that certain things can up the CR and stuff. An owlbear that just attacks the group isnt exactly the same challeneg as minotaurs who set up traps and do other things, their CR may be a little higher depending on what they do. | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 8:55 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
I talk to you every night in IRC... i have been DMing for years ... you couldn't have asked me? [:(]
Sorry man, our schedules vary a lot [)]
Thanks all for the answers. I am not a new DM, just new to the new system of rules, up until last December it was all 1E/2E/Custom rules. We are liking 3.5E. Too much to absorb for me and between preparing for the adventure, planning and plotting for possible outcomes, strategizing, etc, little time to actual STUDY the damn rules [)] Finding myself going back to the books a lot, something that I haven't done in a long time [:(] | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/16/2006 10:08 AM |
| | Another thing to note is how the CR/EL is built. I've found that a single CR4 beastie doesn't always fare as well as a composite EL 4 encounter, such as 3 CR1 beasties. I know that with the party I DM when they can concentrate their attacks on a single opponent it's not going to last very long. If I force them to split their attacks on multiple opponents the encounter becomes much more challenging. They're not a standard group however, there are 6 PC's. Two of which are very heavy hitters. | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 10:17 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
Another thing to note is how the CR/EL is built. I've found that a single CR4 beastie doesn't always fare as well as a composite EL 4 encounter, such as 3 CR1 beasties. I know that with the party I DM when they can concentrate their attacks on a single opponent it's not going to last very long. If I force them to split their attacks on multiple opponents the encounter becomes much more challenging. They're not a standard group however, there are 6 PC's. Two of which are very heavy hitters.
Oh yeah, I have to compensate a lot as well. I have 4 players with 8 4th level characters; there is always plenty for them to split to [)] [}:)]
I still need to grasp and read the EL fiasco [eyes] vs the CR | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/16/2006 10:33 AM |
| The CR/EL thing is pretty simple actually. If you double the threat, add 2 to the CR. If you increase the threat by 50%, add 1.
For example:
CR1=EL1
2CR1=EL3
3CR1=EL4
4CR1=EL5
6CR1=EL6
8CR1=EL8
By this point the equation is definetly breaking down and higher CR beasties are probably in order.
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 10:50 AM |
| Wouldn't that make encounter levels deceptive then?
If I throw my (8x4th level) players an EL8 consisting of 8 CR1 orcs they will whipe the floor with them. But if I do 3 CR4 monsters which should be an EL7? they would have a much harder time at it.
Does anyone use ELs at all, specially when there is no average party level as they are all the same? | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/16/2006 11:16 AM |
| Yes they can be. I was just posting how the equation is set up. It breaks down with large numbers of beasties. I use El's all the time. I find it to be a very good metric. It's not perfect, but it's very workable. You may consider basing 8 4th level characters on something higher than EL 4. Maybe 6 as a standard. I don't know if that suggestion gels with the rules, but it feels right. Of course all this can be thrown out the window once the DM is used to the paties strengths and weaknesses.
My group's composition is
2 Fighters, 1 tank and 1 mobility fighter.
1 Mystic Theurge
1 Cleric with the War Priest PrC
1 Druid
1 Ranger
They're a tough bunch, but they have 2 glaring weaknesses. No rogue and they can't turn undead very well.
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 11:41 AM |
| | Slight correction; 8 CR 1 creatures is EL 7 (1=1, 2=3, 4=5, 8=7) Also, the EL is just a guide, a rough estimate of how tough the encounter should be. You still give out xp based on the actual creature's CR. For a party of 8 fourth level characters, 8 CR 1 creatures would be worth 300 xp for each character total. A single CR 8 would be worth 600 to the same party. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/16/2006 11:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by taliesin
Slight correction; 8 CR 1 creatures is EL 7 (1=1, 2=3, 4=5, 8=7) .
Oooops. [:I] Math is hard. [)] | |
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Mrfurious
Warrior
344 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 5:46 PM |
| I've found in general that the CR system is most accurate when taking it straight. i.e. 1 CR 4 monster is a CR 4 encounter
This is mainly because each monster (especially in the MMI) was pretty well play tested.
The farther you get away from this the more likely you are to have an encounter be too easy or too difficult. Like with the formulas in the book for advancing by HD, or the formula for adding CRs together. While these formulas are good rules of thumb, and work pretty well for small modifications, for large changes they can be grossly inaccurate. I mean most of these formulas are linear, but likely the change in power with advancing HD or adding more monsters is not exactly linear.
So my recomendation is when taking stuf straight from the MM you can trust CRs very well, and as long as you match the monster to the environment it should be good.
If you deviate far from this (adding more than 2 to the CR by advancing Hit Dice, more than 4 monsters in the encounter, etc), I'd suggest play testing the encounter out a bit to make sure you don't butcher the party. Players generally dont complain about an easy session, but if you throw an encounter out there that stomps them into the ground quickly and efficiently, it tends to annoy them.
Just my two cents. | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 7:02 PM |
| Using the handy-dandy D&D v3.5 Encounter Calculator over at www.d20srd.org, your party of 8 4th level characters comes out to a "party level" (to be compared with EL) of 6, so nyjastul69 had it right. So really a single CR 4 monster, or a typical EL 4 encounter will probably not challenge your party very much. So you should probably shoot for EL 6 and up.
My party of 5 level 4 characters has been tearing through EL 4 to EL 6 encounters without too much problem, so I've been trying to creatively add to the difficulties. Just a little factoid to keep in mind, your party of 8 4th level characters would be an EL 10 encounter for another party of 8 4th level characters. That fight might be 50/50 as to who would win using ALL the party's resources. Thus your party could conceivably defeat up to EL 10 encounters, but with a high probability of a TPK. But perhaps you could throw an EL 7-8 encounter into the climax of your adventure and it should make the players sweat without necessarily killing all their characters. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 8:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wildmage
Using the handy-dandy D&D v3.5 Encounter Calculator over at www.d20srd.org, your party of 8 4th level characters comes out to a "party level" (to be compared with EL) of 6, so nyjastul69 had it right. So really a single CR 4 monster, or a typical EL 4 encounter will probably not challenge your party very much. So you should probably shoot for EL 6 and up.
My party of 5 level 4 characters has been tearing through EL 4 to EL 6 encounters without too much problem, so I've been trying to creatively add to the difficulties. Just a little factoid to keep in mind, your party of 8 4th level characters would be an EL 10 encounter for another party of 8 4th level characters. That fight might be 50/50 as to who would win using ALL the party's resources. Thus your party could conceivably defeat up to EL 10 encounters, but with a high probability of a TPK. But perhaps you could throw an EL 7-8 encounter into the climax of your adventure and it should make the players sweat without necessarily killing all their characters.
You have to be very, very careful when using upped ELs for larger parties. You should definitely stay away from high EL encounters that consist of one or just a couple high CR creatures when doing this, because often the strengths and vulnerabilities for those high CR creatures are done with certain assumptions about the PCs' levels.
Instead, when balancing for a larger group of characters, you should mostly stick to larger numbers of lower CR creatures, because that way they're sticking to monsters that were designed for characters of their level, and increased target selection helps characters not feel left out as much in terms of having something to fight.
To give my favorite example of why you should usually stick to doing it this way, consider a party of 8 level 8 characters. You might think, hm, they can handle a CR 11 creature like a hezrou. After all, their partly level is rated as 10 by the encounter calculator, so that is only a +1 encounter, not too horrible.
Then of course, the hezrou fires off the first of its 3 caster level 13 blasphemy spells, paralyzing your party for 1d10 minutes, no save allowed, and causing a TPK.
In short... bigger parties should get more monsters, not meaner monsters. | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 03/16/2006 11:26 PM |
| Thanks for your points Ian. I'm still getting the hang of working out ELs and CRs. One point though is that more monsters seem to contribute to slower combat. But on the other hand, one or a couple of monsters get gang-beaten by the PCs too easily sometimes. This is going to sound like an oxymoron, but I think I want to avoid slowing down combat while making it last longer. In other words I want to get more combat rounds in per encounter but still have the whole encounter take less time (or at least get more rounds = more player actions, within the same amount of time).
So I guess I want my CR 4 or 5 monsters to have ~20-25 more hps. What are some steps you experienced DMs out there take to ensure that your monsters survive long enough to be interesting, without resorting to higher CR monsters that might kill off all the PCs? Do you just advance HD- doesn't that usually up the CR? Do you find that a lower starting CR monster advanced to a higher CR is preferable to just using a higher starting CR monster? For humanoids do you tack on some NPC levels? A recent WotC Design&Development article talked about why gnolls (which start with 2 racial HD as CR 1) make a good "chassis" on which to add NPC or PC levels and have them feel appropriate for their challenge ratings. What's your take? | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 12:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wildmage
This is going to sound like an oxymoron, but I think I want to avoid slowing down combat while making it last longer.
The easiest way to achieve this is to add more individual monsters, but have them arrive in staggered groups, i.e., as the alarm goes off, or the noise travels or what have you.
As each individual group arrives, your larger-than-normal party wipes them out, and then the next batch arrives. Thus they face more opponents, but not all the attacks all at once (which can bog you down).
You can add a surprising amount of enemies to a combat when their attacks end up staggered like this.
Also, when you think about it, this is very realistic, allowing intelligent (or not-so-intelligent) responses by the dungeon denizens, and it also creates an incentive for the party to sneak about (to make the combats super easy).
You do have to be careful not to let it get out of hand, but not super careful, the delayed attacks really do handicap the monsters. And the larger the party, the easier it is to pull off.
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LargeMarmot
Sergeant
463 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 2:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
The CR/EL thing is pretty simple actually. If you double the threat, add 2 to the CR. If you increase the threat by 50%, add 1.
For example:
CR1=EL1
2CR1=EL3
3CR1=EL4
4CR1=EL5
6CR1=EL6
8CR1=EL8
By this point the equation is definetly breaking down and higher CR beasties are probably in order.
How have I never known this? I've only been playing for 6 yrs and DMing for 4. Man, the stuff you learn. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:13 AM |
| Gnolls and bugbears are both good bases to tack levels on to I think.
Even a simple thing like a bugbear with 2 levels of warrior and appropriate armor can be annoying to deal with - they get up into AC 22 territory just with scale mail and a heavy shield, and the CR doesn't go up much. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:27 AM |
| | Yea CR and EL sometimes is pretty ricky because depending on how they act and what they have, it will vary. Personally I just wing a lot of it and try to do the best i can. I mean it'd be pretty hard to get it close to perfect and a lot of times it isnt worth it. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/17/2006 12:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wildmage
Thanks for your points Ian. I'm still getting the hang of working out ELs and CRs. One point though is that more monsters seem to contribute to slower combat. But on the other hand, one or a couple of monsters get gang-beaten by the PCs too easily sometimes. This is going to sound like an oxymoron, but I think I want to avoid slowing down combat while making it last longer. In other words I want to get more combat rounds in per encounter but still have the whole encounter take less time (or at least get more rounds = more player actions, within the same amount of time).
So I guess I want my CR 4 or 5 monsters to have ~20-25 more hps. What are some steps you experienced DMs out there take to ensure that your monsters survive long enough to be interesting, without resorting to higher CR monsters that might kill off all the PCs? Do you just advance HD- doesn't that usually up the CR? Do you find that a lower starting CR monster advanced to a higher CR is preferable to just using a higher starting CR monster? For humanoids do you tack on some NPC levels? A recent WotC Design&Development article talked about why gnolls (which start with 2 racial HD as CR 1) make a good "chassis" on which to add NPC or PC levels and have them feel appropriate for their challenge ratings. What's your take?
The most common method I use is to increase the hp's from what is listed in the MM. I'll just figure out what 75-80% looks like and it's usually good increase. It's got the added benefit of being easier than most of the other methods. You can also increase their stats a bit. An increase in Str, Dex, or Con can often go a long way.
I also like to add levels to beasties. I like the look on the Spring Attack fighters face when they pull that stunt on him. I just recently used Sorcerous Mind Flayers against my party, they we're sweatin' when those things started hurling MM and Scorching Ray's. [}:)]
I concur with proudft, staggering beasties is a great way to handle big encounters. It's a good idea to under-power an encounter if your unsure how the group will handle it. It's much easier to amp the combat up once it begins than it is to decrease it. Waves of beasties is a good way to do this as well.
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 1:43 PM |
| I find the average CR's to be a little underpowered for my various groups.
The CR's are figured on the average party and average is concidered a 4 member party with stats based on a 28 point buy system ,and this part i'm not sure about, a single class from the players handbook. If you use another system such as the 4d6 drop the lowest your party average will be tougher. If you have a powergamer in the group your party average will be tougher.If you find a great synergy in class and prestige levels the average party can be tougher.And of course if you have more than 4 members the party average will be tougher.
I find in my house games that the our average party is usually much tougher than the average party the CR's are built around. As a DM I start the campaigns using the CR's in the various MM but as I understand how the PC work and as they advance and get more powerfull I up the EL's and sometimes advance the monsters they are fighting. You can make a monster tougher by just adding a class level or two to them without creating a TPK. In IanB's example of a hezrou as a CR 11 that might result in a TPK but if you add a couple of levels of fighter or barbarian or even sorcerer to say a frost giant you get an CR of 11 that a party of 8 4th levels could handle, it might be tough,they may have to use some stratagy instead of just running up and fighting heck they may even have to run but it wouldn't be a TPK. | | | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 2:39 PM |
| To follow up on my example from before, here is an annoying CR 3 bugbear warrior that could make a good component in a larger fight for these mobs of 4th level guys:
Bugbear Warrior 2 (can be assigned equipment appropriate to a level 6 npc, we'll go a little less than that. Stats are based on the non-elite array instead of the base numbers; this requires no CR adjustment.)
Str 18 (including assigned point for level 4), Dex 14, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 6
Initiative +1
Speed 20
AC 23 (6 breastplate, 2 heavy shield, 3 natural armor, 2 dex)
Att: warhammer +9 (d8+4)
Feats: weapon focus (warhammer), iron will (instead of alertness)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +4
Gear: breastplate, warhammer, heavy shield
EDIT: I forgot his hps! It will have 27 hps, unless you roll for your npcs.
That took me about 5 minutes to do. Move some ability scores, add 2 NPC class levels at CR + 1/2 each, change a feat, add the appropriate gear, and voila.
I didn't look up the gear value for an ECL 6 npc but if you wanted to risk giving the party more stuff to sell he could probably be carrying a masterwork weapon, or maybe even a +1 one. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/17/2006 5:46 PM |
| Something else to consider when upping the EL/CR of an encounter:
The more times you roll dice, the greater the chances for an improbable roll to occur.
We all have stories of that horrible die roll that killed a favorite PC. When you add more instances where dice are rolled by increasing the number of enemies, you increase the opportunities for one of these improbable rolls to occur.
In most instances, the odds of something very bad occuring on a die roll will be reduced when you have more enemies in the battle, because the larger number of enemies means that the enemies will be weaker in general.
However, even though the odds of something bad occuring *per die roll* may be reduced, the greater number of die rolls in total can make the *aggregate* chance of bad things occuring may be much higher.
To balance this, when you use larger numbers of monsters/PCs, the DM should attempt to steer the game away from the effects where one bad roll can have a sudden and shaking effect on the health of a PC. These are some things to avoid:
* Save or die/paralyze/etc... spells. Save these for special enemies. Even if the odds of paralyzing/killing a PC are low, if you have enough chances, someone will fail ...
* Weapons with high critical multipliers. A critical with a scythe in the hands of a high strength foe with power attack can be devastating.
* Weapons that deal d10 or d12 damage. A short series of 'lucky' rolls on these dice can have a drastically bad result. You'll see less PC death when you use weapons dealing 2d4+1 or 2d6+1 damage, even thought he averager damage may be higher. | |
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