Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
    
 | | 03/31/2006 3:00 AM |
| This seems to stretch the bounds of credulity.
Say party member 1 is being grappled by a lion. Can party member 2 (a cleric) move next to him and heal him with a spell? The lion can't make AoOs cuz he is grappling party member 1, but it just seems wierd to me that he is sticking his hand into this raging ball of lion claws and able to get off the heal.
Am I missing some rules that prevent this from happening? Or is it just one of the oddities of the rules? | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6621 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/31/2006 3:08 AM |
| I seem to remember that you have a 50% chance of touching your ally and a 50% chance of touching the lion. There might be something with a melee touch attack, also.
I'll go try to find the rules and edit my post after that.
Edit: I can't find anything specific, but that may be because I'm just not very good at finding things in the books. The entire grapple section in combat says nothing about what happens if someone tries a touch spell against or on you when in grappling situation. I looked in other sections, but couldn't find anything. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/31/2006 3:21 AM |
| The rules aren't explicit. It seems that the intent would be if you want to engage anyone involved in a grapple you'd have to engage in the grapple yourself (following the rules for joining a grapple and multiple grapplers). You would also have to be casting your cure spell as a Still spell since spells with somantic components cannot be cast while grappling (plus make the DC 20+spell level Concentration check). That would seem like the most logical application. If you want to dance you have to jump in the mosh pit [:D]
Alternatively you could house rule something along the lines of:
To cast a spell (on an enemy or ally) while the target is grappling you must succeed at a melee touch attack (against the target's AC). There is then a 50% chance of striking your target and a 50% chance of striking the other grappler. If more than one person is grappling (or the grapplers are more than 1 size category apart) the chance of the spell succesfully targeting your ally decreases by 20% per additional grappler (or size category difference). For example if you had two medium grapplers you'd have to make a touch attack against your ally then have a 50% chance of healing your ally or the enemy. If a medium ally is grappling a Huge creature you would have a 90% chance of healing the Huge creature and only a 10% chance of healing your ally (there's just so much more enemy to accidentally hit than ally).
Perhaps start with a 75% success rate and drop in incriments of 25% (medium vs. Huge would have a 25 % success rate; medium vs. Gargantuan would have a 0% success rate). | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6621 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/31/2006 3:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
You would also have to be casting your cure spell as a Still spell since spells with somantic components cannot be cast while grappling (plus make the DC 20+spell level Concentration check). That would seem like the most logical application. If you want to dance you have to jump in the mosh pit [:D]
Can't you cast the spell and then reach to touch your target? I thought that's how touch spells worked. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/31/2006 3:32 AM |
| If you've joined a grapple you can only cast spells with no somantic components. That's pretty explicit in the rules for casting a spell while grappling.
If you're casting a touch spell and not involved in the combat you could "hold the charge" (cast the spell then attempt to touch the target). | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 3:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
The rules aren't explicit. It seems that the intent would be if you want to engage anyone involved in a grapple you'd have to engage in the grapple yourself (following the rules for joining a grapple and multiple grapplers).
Why would you need to engage in the grapple to touch one of the grappling creatures? You don't need to do that to strike one of them with a weapon. Seems like casting a touch spell on one of them would follow the same principles, since an offensive touch spell is considered like a melee attack.
Also, I think the rules are pretty explicit in saying the 50/50 chance to hit your ally is for ranged attacks only. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6621 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/31/2006 4:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
Also, I think the rules are pretty explicit in saying the 50/50 chance to hit your ally is for ranged attacks only.
Where, though? I mean, where do the rules say that? | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
9043 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/31/2006 4:40 AM |
| | As a DM, I would give a PC better than a 50/50 chance of touching the correct creature in this case. Realistically, all grapples have their dynamic and their static times. Wait for them to stop moving, and then go for a limb that's "way out there" so that there is a far lower chance of healing the wrong creature. Just my 2 cents. | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 4:58 AM |
| AFAIK the rules do not limit your ability to touch (or melee attack) a grappling creature if you're not within the grapple. On the contrary. It's easier than ever. The defender loses his Dex bonus to AC. If you're doing a ranged attack you have to roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike (and he still loses his Dex bonus to AC).
You can look at the right-upper table here http://d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm (look for "defender is: grappling) and also here http://d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple for more grappling data.
I first thought that this rule is very problematic, and my group even played it wrong for long time. When we did made the transit my players rejoiced. They noticed that healing spells can be applied to grappling friends. They neglected to see that enemies can hit a grappler very easily too... So from my experience it turned out balanced after all. YMMV. | |
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 6:43 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by madda
AFAIK the rules do not limit your ability to touch (or melee attack) a grappling creature if you're not within the grapple. On the contrary. It's easier than ever. The defender loses his Dex bonus to AC. If you're doing a ranged attack you have to roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike (and he still loses his Dex bonus to AC)......
I am with you on this one. I view it as in like tag team wrestling and a tag out. (Tag team back again!!) Even though the person creature grappling can't get loose the creature grappling, lion in this case, can't make an AoO. Thus, the dynamic of getting close enough to help an ally is there.
Personally, I think the grapple rules are vague for this reason; to allow personal interpetations and apply situational modifiers. Even though there are tons of rules, rulings are always going to be situational, IMHO.....[:D] | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 7:27 AM |
| By the rules, you can heal the ally, no problem. (The chance to hit a random grappler is for missile attacks. Melee or touches don't suffer that issue.)
You could make a house rule limiting it, and such a house rule wouldn't be unreasonable, but when I weigh a house rule that could reasonably go either way, I always come down on the side of player survivability.
Grappling isn't necessarily a rolling, tumbling ball of cat and human. Think about real wrestling ... you could move up next to two wrestlers and touch the one you wanted to touch, no problem. You might have to wait a second or two for positions to shift to do so, but that's no biggie. | |
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Mrfurious
Warrior
344 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 10:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Grappling isn't necessarily a rolling, tumbling ball of cat and human. Think about real wrestling ... you could move up next to two wrestlers and touch the one you wanted to touch, no problem. You might have to wait a second or two for positions to shift to do so, but that's no biggie.
What are you talking about???? If cartoons have taught me anything its that grappling devolves into a giant cloud of dust and mayhem with the occasional arm, leg, or head that pops out briefly.
So not only would there be a 50/50 chance to hit the right thing with the spell, there would also be a 50% miss chance from total concealment from the cloud of dust.
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LargeMarmot
Sergeant
463 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 11:06 AM |
| | I think this is a good place for good old DM discretion. Depending on the specific situation I would give it the 50/50 idea or I would not worry about it. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 2:15 PM |
| Definitely kosher by the rules.
I don't have a huge problem with it in most cases. It is a little goofy when something big enough to be holding your ally way out of reach has him, but if I was going for hyperrealistic combat, d20 wouldn't be my system of choice anyway. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 11:43 PM |
| It's probably most likely that the Lion is pinning him and chewing on him anyway, rather than rolling about. Now, this means the CLERIC might get attacked next round, but hey, ya cast yer spells and ya takes yer chances...
JIM
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