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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
    
 | | 03/31/2006 11:03 PM |
| Hello all,
Okay, here's the deal: Jai and I are trying to cobble together a random magic item generator that incorporates all the recent splatbooks. I've been busily typing magic items into Excel spreadsheets, but there are a few tasks I am dreading (Wondrous Items) and one or two I'm unsure of how to proceed on. Item ye firste: Wands
Wands can have ANY 4th level spell. They can also apparently have lower-level spells that have been heightened. It makes me wonder if other metamagic feats could also be applied to a wand. You can start to see the source of my headache.
Has anyone detected the philosophy behind what spells are put into wands, and which are not? I'm trying to figure out exactly how we could do this. Guidance would be appreciated. Someone willing to create the Excel file would be even MORE appreciated. [:D]
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/01/2006 1:43 AM |
| Any spell with an effective level of 4 or lower can be made into a wand. So Stilled 3rd-level spells, etc...
In order to account for every possible spell that could be in a wand you'd have to look at every combination of Metamagic Feats + spell that add up to 4 or less. What a nightmare [:o]
Spells that typically are found in wands are spells you want to be able to cast often. The most common wands I see used are either primarily offensive (Fireball, Magic Missile, Melf's Acid Arrow, Orbs, etc.) or curative (wands of Cure Light Wounds are the most commonly purchased and/or created magic item in the games I play in/DM).
Spells that are situational (i.e. Knock) are best kept on a spare scroll or two (unless you don't have a party rogue).
I would posit that since spellcasters wouldn't normally craft wands containing spells that aren't useful in high numbers you could discount a wide variety of wand types from the treasure list (sure they CAN be crafted but who would want to?). | |
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Plasticrack Addict
Sergeant
588 Posts
| | 04/01/2006 4:26 AM |
| | My big issue with random magic item tables is this.. "Why would anyone in their right mind make a wand of x?" X being identify, etc. My group plays 3.0/3.5 hybrid rules, so the buff spells are 1hr/level and do a 1d4+1 so those are useful, we also play with the variant rule, if you make the wand, you use your int/wis modifier for the save, but if you find it, it is minimum as per the book. For example, a druid with an 18 wis and the spellcasting prodigy feat makes a wand of flaming spheres, so the DC is 10+2(spell level)+5(wis bonus) or 17, but of you find a wand, the DC is 10+2(spell level)+1(minimum wis 12 needed to cast spell) or 13. I think you could really limit your selections for wands by choosing what makes sense, rather than a spattering of all spells and metamagic feats. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/01/2006 8:32 AM |
| PCA:
A Wand of Identify is pure gold! Being able to ID a magic item in the dungeon is pretty valuable, even if it does still take an hour. Now finding the pearls could be a headache, but that's always the case with Identify. Poor oysters...
Zenthrus:
I see what you are saying, but then why isn't there a Wand of Shield -- or any abjuration for that matter? Sure it'll only last a minute, but how many combats go over 10 rounds? Daddy needs his +4 to AC! And no wand of Scorching Ray? I should think that No Save spells would be a no brainer for wands. Am I missing something?
Trying to figure it out,
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 04/01/2006 8:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
PCA:
A Wand of Identify is pure gold!Being able to ID a magic item in the dungeon is pretty valuable, even if it does still take an hour. Now finding the pearls could be a headache, but that's always the case with Identify. Poor oysters...
Zenthrus:
I see what you are saying, but then why isn't there a Wand of Shield -- or any abjuration for that matter? Sure it'll only last a minute, but how many combats go over 10 rounds? Daddy needs his +4 to AC!And no wand of Scorching Ray? I should think that No Save spells would be a no brainer for wands. Am I missing something?
Trying to figure it out,
JIM
aka kyrin
PCA response:
kryin you are right on with this one!! My players would give over teeth and first born for one of these. Since the pearl is the item and the farther inland you get the harder it is for PCs to acquire the peral component. A wand with identify would be a godsend for one of my groups.
Zenthrus response:
Wands with no save are right on target; i.e. magic missiles. I had a player character get two wands of magic missiles. Like something out of the wild west he would get into a combat and be the sharp shooter in the corner. Saved the party's bacon on a few occasioins. Wands that don't have a save are again worthwhile. Just that the party has to figure out they are worth something.....[)]
I know I will use this generator. So, if I can help in anyway please let me know. Busy for the next couple of weeks with school and work but I can clear some time after that....[:D] | |
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IHawk
Underboss
1049 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 04/01/2006 11:47 AM |
| Jim,
one way you can curb the huge endeavor concerning
metamagic is to limit how many you include.
heighten
empower
maximize
transdimentional could be really cool
and throw out most of the other ones that just
won't be useful...silent and still don't make ANY
sense at all.
Then if a metamagic comes up on an item that doesn't
make sense like heightened light or something, you
could just delete the heightened when you hand it out
and give the differnce in gold or something or another
minor magic item to make up the difference.
Your struggles that you are having now are exactly the
struggles that I had when i set out on this endeavor
three years ago. I didn't complete the task. Lucky
i didn't cause there is so much more crap to deal with
with all of the new books, it would have been a waste
of my time to complete back then.
I do wish you luck. The other option is to only use the
tabulated items in the books for random generation for the
purposes of treasure, it would make your task much easier.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/01/2006 5:06 PM |
| Think like a character.
My advice is to only add wands to the generator if they make sense for characters to make them. You don't need every combination. In fact, having every combination would be annoying to PCs, because it would mean that they'll be less likely to find the useful wands.
In my generator, I've only added a few hundred wands, out of millions of possibilities.
I use a realitively simple generator. It is also excel based.
On the first sheet I have one input box - a place to input the average party level.
On the next sheet I have a list of magic items. Each item has the following input fields:
Name
Type (Armor, Shield, Weapon, Potion, etc ...)
Location (for items that fit in a particualr body location, such as rings or amulets)
Rarity (a number from 1 to 12 to represent how common they are to find/have made/etc ... IMHO)
GP Cost (to buy)
XP Cost (to make)
Notes (for me to add any notes I might want when looking over the list)
Level (the ideal level for finding the item, IMHO)
Then, I have a few columns that automatically calculate the chances of pulling each item when I generate a random number.
Each item calculates its own 'preliminary chance to be drawn' number. This chance is equal to: The rarity number of the item minus two times the difference between the item level and the average character level level(minimum 0).
So a 12 Rarity item (incredibly common) with a level of 6 has a 'preliminary chance to be drawn number' of 4 when a 2nd level party is having treasure generated. (12 - (2 * (6 - 2))).
Each items type has a multiplier that can increase the 'chance to be drawn' for items ... and these multipliers change depending upon the level of the party.
The sheet uses the 'chance to be drawn' of each item to generate a spread for each item as you progress down the sheet. If:
the first item has an 8 chance to be drawn,
the second item has a 4 chance to be drawn,
the third item has a 0 chance to be drawn, and
the last item has a 2 chance to be drawn,
Then the spreads generated for these first few items would look like this:
1 - 8 item 1
9 - 12 item 2
13 - 14 item 4
Then, I generate a number between 1 and the higher number for the last item, look it up on the sheet ... and whammo.
You can add whatever items you want to the list, and it doesn't take much time to do so.
My sheet is ... very long ... and is full of my own materials. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4836 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/01/2006 8:44 PM |
| The list in the DMG is not comprehensive. Every Wizard I ever PC has a wand of shield once I can afford one.
As has been stated by a few people I would concentrate on spells that PCs would actually want for a random magic item generator. A wand of Identify would be stunningly awesome to find. A wand of unseen servant substantially less so. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/01/2006 10:07 PM |
| Thanks for all the comments so far, friends. I'm considering taking a "restaurant menu" approach to this. For example, first roll for spell level:
Minor
0-level
1st-level
2nd-level
Medium
1st-level
2nd-level
3rd-level
re-roll for level, then apply metamagic feat
Major
2nd-level
3rd-level
4th-level
re-roll for level, then apply metamagic feat
The metamagic option would be quite rare, and options would be limited. Naturally, if a metamagic application would push a spell over 4th-level, toss the modification.
Second roll would be for level spell is cast at, with options from "minimum level" to "minimium level +8" or somesuch.
Then we'd have tables of desirable spells for all levels for the third roll.
Of course, there's always Plan B: Just Wing That Mother.
Thoughts?
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 9:47 AM |
| | The thing is, it depends on the campaign you're running. Currently, we're in the middle of a desert. We knew we were coming here though and so bought a couple of wands of endure elements before leaving. So your campaign can sometimes dictate what kind of wands you need. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 12:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Remember that the Wand of Identify is far from a minor magic item. What is that ... 5000 in components alone?
My thoughts exactly. | | | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/03/2006 1:37 PM |
| An approach to consider: Don't input the spells at all. In the generator, just list: 'Wand of 3rd level spell' and then increase the frequency that it will be found so that it comes up enough times. Then, when it comes up in a random treasure, think of a back story of how it got there, and figure out what would make sense.
For example, you roll up a wand in a red dragon's treasure pile. You decide that it was a spoil that the dragon took from some adventurers that failed to kill him. What type of wand might a wizard bring on a quest to hunt a dragon? Perhaps it was a wise wizard that thought protexction from energy would be useful. Maybe it was a dumb wizard that thought that invisibility was the key to sneaking past dragons ("Well, it worked in the Hobbit!") | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 1:52 PM |
| A couple of points though... a fully charged wand of identify costs 5750 GP. The expensive material cost is a factor. Wands are meant to have a very low saving throw target, they are an inexpensive magic item. That is why a staff is da bomb, its target saving throw is based upon the user.
Wands are very useful and in our current group, our wizard is running around with 8 wands: magic missle, lightning bolt (7th level caster) mage armor, dispel magic, displacement, Melf's acid arrow, and knock. The only ones that really get regular use are the "Knock," the "dispel magic," and the "displacement." I have found that utilitarian spells are much better than combat spells in a wand just because your wizard usually far surpasses the combat ability of the wand. Our 12th level wizard can throw a hell of a lot more than a 7th level lightning bolt. It is fine as a back up for when she is getting really low on magic, but for regular use... it just doesn't cut it.
Wands can be very cost effective but at the same time... as a hard core number cruncher, some just don't make sense. A maximized wand of magic missles. A fourth level spell with at least a 7th level caster. it shoots four missles that each do 5 points of damage for a total of 20 damage with 100% accuracy and no saving throw. But is it worth the high cost. It is something to take into account when you make up a chart to add on meta magic feats.
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Shoe
Sergeant
804 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 2:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Remember that the Wand of Identify is far from a minor magic item. What is that ... 5000 in components alone?
My thoughts exactly.
Unless you're a cleric with the Magic domain -- since the divine version of the spell has only a focus, not a material component (due to the "M/DF" designation). Of course, then it's a 2nd level spell, and still 4,500gp.
An artificer, though, could make a wand of identify without using the material component (back to the whole "infusions are neither arcane nor divine" bit, which means he doesn't need the arcane material component).
The wierd thing is that any class with identify on the spell list could use any of the above wands...
Ultimately, charging more for identify is really just dumb. The game is more fun when PCs can use the magic they find.
On topic: cure light wounds wands are a mainstay in my groups - burn through 10-20 charges after a fight, and most of the party's good to go. Spells with no save or significant level-based effect are ideal in wands as well - glitterdust, ray of enfeeblement, magic missile (5th level+), animal buffs (bull's str, etc), invis, haste... | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 3:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Shoe
quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Remember that the Wand of Identify is far from a minor magic item. What is that ... 5000 in components alone?
My thoughts exactly.
On topic: cure light wounds wands are a mainstay in my groups - burn through 10-20 charges after a fight, and most of the party's good to go. Spells with no save or significant level-based effect are ideal in wands as well - glitterdust, ray of enfeeblement, magic missile (5th level+), animal buffs (bull's str, etc), invis, haste...
Our Cleric/Fighter has a wand of cure light and a wand of cure mod, our Cleric has a wand of cure light and a wand of cure serious, our ranger has a wand of cure light and a wand of cure mod. We burn through wands of cure light like they are going out of style. We the wands of cure light whenever time is not a major factor and will quite often drain all three wands to near empty by the end of an adventure.
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Plasticrack Addict
Sergeant
588 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 7:55 PM |
| | But a wand of identify still takes 8 hours to cast. The cheapest identify is a Cleric with the magic domain. It costs nothing and you don't need the pearl either. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 12:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Plasticrack Addict
But a wand of identify still takes 8 hours to cast. The cheapest identify is a Cleric with the magic domain. It costs nothing and you don't need the pearl either.
In 3.5 it is now only one hour.
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Plasticrack Addict
Sergeant
588 Posts
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