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Nobody wakes up and says, “today, I’m going to oppress some women.”

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Originally posted by zenthrus

Ironic that a man writes a "feminist manifesto."

Wouldn't that fall into the trap of interpreting womens' perspectives for them from a privileged vantage point? [:D]

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At its core, D&D is frequently about killing critters and taking their stuff. Yes, yes, we've had many, many sessions where we haven't slung a single d20 in anger. But there comes a time when you gotta pick up the dang dice and start marking off hit points. And y'know what? I LIKE it that way. I interact peacefully with my environment every day. When I game, I want to do things I don't/can't do in Real Life, like kick in a door and cast a fireball into a room full of orcs. It may be that some women (and a number of men) don't like that style of play. Fine. I do. You don't like that style of play, start yer own game. You can invite me to play, and I may actually enjoy it. But I also enjoy Old Skool Hack 'n' Slash Dungeon Crawls, and that's what I'm going to run.

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They're just not interested. Why can't we just say that most women aren't interested, and let it be? And if there are women that are interested, and haven't found a group to welcome them, why does that have to be a systemic problem? Why can't we just say they haven't found the right group?

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"Oh well, you don't see it because you're a man."

Well, Einstein, my wife has a perfectly functional pair of X chromosomes and SHE doesn't see it either. And think about three times before you say ANYTHING about her. She's got two advanced degrees and a Texas Woman's dead aim.

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Originally posted by Count Dooku

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Nobody wakes up and says, “today, I’m going to oppress some women.”

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Speak for yourself :)

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Originally posted by AesophDarkfable

Ah but geekiness in alot of ways is in itself constructed as very male.

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Sure you call John Lithgow, but you are still calling a man. Why not call Dame Judi Dench?

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There was a letter in Dungeon once that I found most hilarious where a guy stated he couldn't play an adventure because it was total BS that it had a female lumberjack in it and that didn't happen so it ruined his suspension of disbelief. The fact that the dragon and fireballs in it didn't but a female lumberjack did was quite hilarious to me.

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I think sometimes we can say that. But there are also alot of women that are interested, but are turned off by factors that can be changed (language, artwork, inclusivness).

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In a chapter of Gary Allen Fine's (1983) book Shared Fantasy he discusses how the men of the groups felt fine role playing rape scenes as it was a fantasy game and they felt that was how their fantasy characters would react (Sadly Fine did little to address this in his research, a critique of the book that I hold close to my heart). This is the type of thing that has a detrimental effect on the game and womens participation.

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I often tell my students that in the social world and when dealing with people exceptions do not disprove years of research.

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A few people that disagree (in this case your wife) does not change the overall structure of the situation.

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Even the RPG companies themselves have realized it and tried to address it (Wizards with the alternating gender language for example, though they have a long way to go on art, or even humorous books such as the Slayers Guide to Female Gamers which takes a tongue in cheek look at the issue comes to mind).

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Even more interesting I find is the second essay, which you do not seem to address here. This one was less about gaming as a whole, and more about the privelaged mindset of the majority.

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7) Sick and Tired. This person claims to hear about it “all the time,” when in fact there’s hardly any discussion at all, largely because of what happens in 1-6. It makes men really uncomfortable, so it only takes a little bit to make them shut down and claim victim status, or to start labeling people who speak out as ‘whining’ or ‘ranting,’ whereas women have to deal with it every single day. Women are probably sick and tired, too, but they can’t get away from it.

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Originally posted by Benimoto

And Kyrin, I'm not the best debater here, but many of your points are already addressed in the article. Particularly here:

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7) Sick and Tired. This person claims to hear about it “all the time,” when in fact there’s hardly any discussion at all, largely because of what happens in 1-6. It makes men really uncomfortable, so it only takes a little bit to make them shut down and claim victim status, or to start labeling people who speak out as ‘whining’ or ‘ranting,’ whereas women have to deal with it every single day. Women are probably sick and tired, too, but they can’t get away from it.

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And as for your argument that women who don't want to play because of the artwork are "lame", I urge you to think about that one again. Surely you can imagine a game you wouldn't play because of the art. I know I'm uncomfortable with depictions of extreme violence or torture. Those "Todd McFarlane Twisted Land of Oz" or the "Clive Barker's Tortured Souls" figures you see in comic book stores? They gross me out. So if there was a game that had those kinds of things repeatedly in the artwork, I'd be less inclined to play. I wouldn't go right out and say "I don't see how you guys can play that game, it's gross," but I'd be unenthusiastic about playing, and I wouldn't attend any cons, or get involved in writing material for it. I bet you can think of a similar situation.

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Originally posted by AesophDarkfable

Jim,
Yeah I know it wasnt addressed at me, and I knew the exception/theory point would come out. Thats a fundamental difference between hard and social sciences. In hard sciences, it is the exceptions that disprove the rule. In social sciences when dealing with structures of people and society it isn't.

Because of our bringings we deal with the discussion on two fundamental different levels. Interestingly I was just reading a series of articles about why the hard sciences are mature sciences and the social science not. So that distinction is very much on my mind.

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I agree. It is construed that way, but it's not the *maleness* that makes something geeky, it's the *antisocial* nature that makes something geeky. We must isolate the TRUE problem if we are to solve it. For whatever reason (culture, biology, whatever) a higher percentage of women than men are concerned with forming social bonds at an early age. This is the problem with math: we teach it in such an antisocial manner (sit at your own desk, do your own work), many little girls are turned off in 3rd grade or so. Now most little boys are as well, but there is a percentage of boys (and a smaller percentage of girls) that don't worry about social bonds until, oh, about age 30. These people are geeks.

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But he doesn't feel that way because he's a man. He feels that way because he's an IDIOT. Isolate the TRUE problem.

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Someone has to say the emperor has no clothes. Not playing a game because of artwork or language is a lame excuse. That's like saying women don't play poker because certain decks of cards have nudie pictures on 'em.

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NEWS FLASH! Stuff like this has a detrimental effect on MEN'S perceptions as well. And those guys may "feel fine" about a rape scene, but it's not because they are men. It's because they are LOSERS. There is NONE of that crap at ANY table I play at.

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But it SHOULD cause people to call basic assumptions into question, and try to re-work that overall structure to conform to reality. The fact that it generally doesn't is my biggest beef with social science. It is bitterly ironic that people who so frequently advocate critical thinking are so unpracticed in it when it comes to their own assumptions. (Not directed at you, BTW, ADF.)

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As I said earlier, alternating gender language and more balanced gender depiction in artwork has been tried for DECADES in math and science textbooks, and there is not a whit of evidence that it is effective. Of course, proponents would simply say that we are simply NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH or NOT DOING IT RIGHT, which is more comforting and easier than, I dunno, thinking.

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For many years, I was what folks today call "socioeconomically disadvantaged" but we called "dirt poor." My family was literally one paycheck away from homelessness in the '70s and '80s. If it weren't for an academic scholarship, I'd be pumping gas at a 7-11 with a high school diploma (or in jail), rather than teaching Astronomy as a Ph.D. This gives me a perspective on privilege that most academics do not have. I will say this: as a man, I have the privilege of

* dying at a younger age than my wife
* being *expected* by society to work myself to death to support my family, while my wife is *admired* for having a career
* being sent into combat more frequently in time of war
* being viewed with suspicion around children (*even my own son*) far more often than my wife is
* having to keep my office door wide open when a female student comes to talk to me
* having to sit there on my hands while a female student (or a male student for that matter) is weeping because life is overwhelming them, when what I WANT to do as a compassionate person is take their hand or give them a hug and comfort them. Female instructors can do this to female students. I can't do it to students of any gender. It tears me apart sometimes. When the student leaves, sometimes I just sit there and cry. Which brings me to my next point...
* being permitted by society to show emotion only at sporting events
* being worth more dead than alive at some point in my life

Huzzah for privilege.

Please don't take this as an attack on you, ADF. I've just heard all these arguments before. They're pretty tired to me, and I wish somebody would try something different.

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Originally posted by kyrin

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Originally posted by AesophDarkfable

Jim,
Yeah I know it wasnt addressed at me, and I knew the exception/theory point would come out. Thats a fundamental difference between hard and social sciences. In hard sciences, it is the exceptions that disprove the rule. In social sciences when dealing with structures of people and society it isn't.

Because of our bringings we deal with the discussion on two fundamental different levels. Interestingly I was just reading a series of articles about why the hard sciences are mature sciences and the social science not. So that distinction is very much on my mind.

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Spookily, I was reflecting on this while driving home from lunch, and it seems to me that the social sciences are where the natural sciences were in the 3rd Century BC: People throwing around what they see as good ideas, and continuing to cling to them, even in the face of contradictory evidence. Aristotle insisting that heavier objects do fall faster even though simple experiment shows they do not, for example.

We have been putting gender-inclusive language and images in math and science textbooks for THIRTY YEARS, and there is no evidence that it has impacted the number of women in science and engineering. I have therefore no reason to believe that alternating him and her in the PHB, or decreasing the amount of cleavage and belly shirts, will make a dime's worth of difference. Women like my wife are viewed as aberrations to be largely disregarded, not anomalies that can assist us in seeing things more clearly. And that disturbs me.

When it became clear that the planet Mercury was not following the orbit that the Theory of Gravity predicted, people did not just shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh well, there will be exceptions." They looked for ways to change the theories to account for this anomaly, and Einstein used it as a springboard for the Theory of Relativity. Social scientists (including feminists) seem to have no desire to do this. It seems to me that

A natural scientist says, "Well, that idea isn't working. I guess I have to change it." Natural scientists want to be ACCURATE.

The social scientist seems to say, "Well, that idea isn't working. TRY HARDER!" Social scientists want to be RIGHT.

There is nothing inherently wrong with social sciences being less mature -- I mean, we've only been seriously thinking about this for a couple centuries. I just wish there would be more of an effort to get away from vague notions, and get to concrete behaviors. And that ain't gonna happen unless and until people are willing to value evidence over ideas, and see exceptions as opportunities to inform theory. It seems that the social sciences seriously need a Copernicus.

JIM
aka kyrin

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Originally posted by AesophDarkfable

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But he doesn't feel that way because he's a man. He feels that way because he's an IDIOT. Isolate the TRUE problem.

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But is it his indivdual idiocy that is the true problem? or is it something structural and larger. If there are enough idiots then there must be something beyond (the same issue for example had a letter stating that female characters should receieve a -2 to strength)

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But the nudie cards aren't required to play poker, alot of the books with sexist art are required to play the game.

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Addressed this a bit earlier and will address a bit more here. It really boils down to humans being at times highly unpredicatable. In a "hard" science if something is unpredictable scientists move on, they label it impossible, or not able to be studied (certain movements of molecules in gas for example {or so i've been told} or cold fusion).

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Or maybe the language in math and science isn't the issue. It might not be the answer for math and science as they have very different structural issues going on. That does not mean that it is not the answer for RPGs.

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You make wonderful points about other unseen privilages (some might read baggage) that come with being a man in the world. These are often ignored by modern feminists but there has been some discussion of them.

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I actually pointed this out to my students in class the other day, that just because there are a list of prilivages doesn't mean its all roses. I come from the exact same type of background (Dirt poor) where only government funds and scholarships have gotten me to where I am (I'd be at a boat factory right now if not). So I know alot about privilege to (or a lack of it).

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Originally posted by kyrin
It seems that the social sciences seriously need a Copernicus.

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Not playing a game because of artwork or language is a lame excuse. That's like saying women don't play poker because certain decks of cards have nudie pictures on 'em.

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