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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
    
 | | 04/18/2006 6:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
As I said, I unleash the Power of Not Giving a Damn. There are many images in the Book of Vile Darkness, for example, that I find unpleasant. There are many charactitures of the obese in there, and NOT flattering ones. Hell, there's even a FEAT in the BoVD that connects being fat with being evil! I could choose to be so offended by that that I refuse to play D&D. But I choose to ignore it. There are so many things in this world to be offended by that I'm not going to waste energy on a friggin' game. And I think it's sad, and yes a lame excuse, that people do choose to waste energy in such a manner.
And I didn't say they were lame. I said it's a lame argument. Or, to abandon the vernacular, an unconvincing reason. Better?
It's better, but it's not enough. You mention earlier that you benefitted from an academic scholarship. I myself am only in school because of them. But, the point behind them is they're a way that those in power (or those with money) reach out to those without. Now, I think it's pretty evident that men are the ones in power in the gaming industry. Maybe we need to reach out to women a little here.
To me, that's the main point of the article. Sure the author took a few overly-broad detours into Sociology 101 territory, but the point is still solid. And the action items are solid. "Even if your game is geared toward a male audience (and that’s okay), you want to make sure that if a woman chooses not to play your game, it’s because she’s just not into the subject, not because something in your book makes her feel excluded." Saying "ignore it" isn't good enough. We need to actually reach out and do something positive.
I think we can reach common ground here. Can we agree that there's room for improvement, in the art for instance? And if there's room for improvement, why the heck don't people improve it?
Kudos well said. I did get the author to credit the article that he had adopted the privilege section from. It is very Soc 101 in a way, in fact it is so very soc 101 that I might use it in my Intro class.
and oh yes I agree | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 6:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
Can we agree that there's room for improvement, in the art for instance? And if there's room for improvement, why the heck don't people improve it?
Agreed. | | | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 6:54 PM |
| I'm going to take the smithmeg approach and mostly ramble about my own experiences and thoughts (I am TEH WIFE Ian was referring to, oh noes!).
The article makes a lot of points that ring true for me, and I find it more impressive BECAUSE it comes from a man. Because he acknowledges his own privilege, he can begin to see how women don't have certain privileges he does in gaming, and how men do have a role in making gaming more welcoming overall to women who might otherwise be interested. I find it helpful when men call other men out for sexist behaviour (however unintentional it might be) because it's harder for other men to dismiss it as "pointless feminist whining." Not that some won't try anyway, of course.
I'd like to mostly focus on the Otherness Problem, because I think it is the main reason women who might otherwise play don't.
While I don't doubt men feel a sense of Other, I'm not sure it kicks in for them as often in the general world. Men are generally considered the "default" for activities that might otherwise be gender neutral a lot of the time, in addition to the Traditionally Male activities. Sure, they might feel a sense of Other at a scrapbooking party (hell, *I* do ...), but out and about in the Real World, I don't think they feel it as sharply as often.
And that otherness really, really bites, especially when the members of the included group dismiss it as whining or wanting special treatment. The problem for me is that I GET special treatment, or am expected to swallow my own desires because I AM the Other. I'm the Visitor. I'll never belong. Every chainmail bikini clad picture reminds me that the art is mostly for men, because it's MEN who play these games. Everytime all the pronouns are "he," in reference to Default Gamer reminds me the gaming world is for MEN. Everytime I hear in a MMO that I have to PROVE I'm a woman by posting a picture or speaking on voice chat before they'll believe it, it's a reminder Games are for Men. And so on.
One of the reasons I stopped playing DDM was because of this Otherness. It wasn't the men, not even close. Every guy I talked to seemed genuinely happy to see me playing (although I did get the sense of the Trailing Spouse assumption from some of them, but them's the breaks). I felt about as welcome as could be expected. But the problem was that I was STILL the only girl competing in the area. And so every time I played, I felt enormous pressure to Represent the Female Gender. If I played well, hooray! GRRL POWER and all that. But if I played poorly, it was just subtly stressing that women just aren't as good at DDM. It's the way their brains work, you know. No man I played would ever SAY that to me, and I don't know how many men would really think it that way in those terms, but the pressure was still there. 'Cause I'm the Outsider. I gotta prove myself every day.
The main "problem," I think, is that "no women" game because no women game. We deal with Otherness in so many aspects of our lives already, some of us just don't want to add another aspect to the list, I think. I'm willing to put up with a lot for a good game, although I do have limits. I'm not surprised other women draw the line further back. And this is generally a trade-off men rarely have to make (if ever) in the world of gaming.
As for the paradox of Men Speaking on Behalf of Women, I don't really see it as a problem. It's HELPFUL if a man says, "I can see how chainmail bikinis send the message the game is for men and women are mere visitors." I'm not saying I want Ian to Speak Specifically for Me when I can speak for myself or anything, but when he talks about a problem he thinks women face (or talks about an experience I've had in a discussion I'm not in), it's just helping shed more light on the problem, I think.
Sorry this was so long and rambly, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. [:)]
EDIT: I used the wrong "to" and it would've bugged me ALL NIGHT. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 7:09 PM |
| Not long and ramblely at all. Very well said and raises several good points.
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Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 7:34 PM |
| | Thanks! | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6610 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 04/18/2006 9:43 PM |
| My wife does RPG and did skirmish. She lost interest in DDM. One reason was that she prefers the style of RPG more. She likes being with a group of friends and joking around. She likes the social aspects.
She does fine in combat situations, too. She loves her ranger. She just isn't interested in just skirmishing--the one-on-one battle focusing on stats and strategy and maps. She did skirmish for several months before losing interest.
I'm sure there are other factors I haven't mentioned. I was just trying to address some of them. I think being the one female most of the time wasn't her favorite part of it. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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smithmeg
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 10:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
The main "problem," I think, is that "no women" game because no women game. We deal with Otherness in so many aspects of our lives already, some of us just don't want to add another aspect to the list, I think.
Very well said Sjofn (the rest was very good too, but I can't quote your whole post [)]).
quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
One of the reasons I stopped playing DDM was because of this Otherness. It wasn't the men, not even close. Every guy I talked to seemed genuinely happy to see me playing (although I did get the sense of the Trailing Spouse assumption from some of them, but them's the breaks). I felt about as welcome as could be expected. But the problem was that I was STILL the only girl competing in the area. And so every time I played, I felt enormous pressure to Represent the Female Gender. If I played well, hooray! GRRL POWER and all that. But if I played poorly, it was just subtly stressing that women just aren't as good at DDM. It's the way their brains work, you know. No man I played would ever SAY that to me, and I don't know how many men would really think it that way in those terms, but the pressure was still there. 'Cause I'm the Outsider. I gotta prove myself every day.
Just expanding a bit on this issue (since ADF asked for more) ...
(Please keep in mind that this is all very subjective - I'm talking about my personal experiences and feelings - I don't even know if other females would feel the same.)
I might start with a little bit of information about me, so you have a basic starting point to see where I'm coming from: I am 31, single, and about as far from being a 'hot chick' as it's possible to be (I'm with you about the donuts and the exercise kyrin). I'm not sure how much difference this makes, but I think I probably have a slightly easier time making the transition to being seen as 'one of the guys' than I would if I was a 'hot chick'.
The group I currently skirmish with is very small - often only 2 people, and the most we ever get is about 5. I do not run into gender related problems in this group, because I am thought of as 'Megan' not 'the Girl' - this is because we've been playing together for almost 2 years, and I learnt to skirmish in this group.
What I'm going to talk about is how I felt when I was thinking about going to a different, larger group that plays proper tournaments, rather than just for fun. I felt the pressure to represent my gender that Sjofn talks about, but also, while most people (sorry, I mean men), would have not problem being beaten by 'Megan', there are some who would have an issue with being beaten by 'the Girl'. And because of this, on top of feeling pressure to play well, I also feel pressure not to win too much initially. (This might be totally wrong, but everything the rest of my life has taught me, is that if you are a girl in a male dominated field, you DO NOT stand up higher than them - it's ok to excel once you are thought of as 'one of the guys', but do not start off that way).
It would probably be different if I was known by a number of people in the group, and I expect it would become less of a problem after 3 or 4 sessions. But at the moment, the annoyance of feeling I should play below my ability, combined with all the extra hassles of trying to fit into a new group (who will at least initially see me as 'the Girl'), has meant that I've decided to spend those 5 hours every 2nd Saturday at home painting instead of skirmishing.
So, that was a lot of rambling. I hope it makes sense, or you can at least see where I might be coming from. The big question is, was writing this a good use of 1/2 a morning at work [)]. | | | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 10:37 PM |
| I never felt too much of a problem worrying about being The Girl and those that would get upset being beat by her TOO badly, because those are the people I wanted to beat most badly. [)] Plus I didn't really get that vibe from anyone I played, which was great.
I have DEFINITELY had that problem at work, however (I'm a stagehand, and have done way more than my fair share of Only Girl on the Call). It's finding that annoying fine line of being seen as competent rather than Another Stupid Girl but not being the Threatening Superwoman that makes some people get weirdly hostile. Then suddenly they decide you're "not like OTHER girls" and they can relax and treat you like a human instead of some weird alien from Planet Estrogen. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 11:48 PM |
| I'm curious, Jim ... do the same counterpoints to the argument apply if we change things from "men and women" to "whites and blacks"?
I'm just curious, as one of the strangest things I've discovered, as a flaming liberal in an even-more-flaming-liberal geographic area, is how many folks on the left will acknowledge racism while denying sexism. (I realize that you're not denying sexism, wholesale.) It's been pretty puzzling for me. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 11:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
I think we can reach common ground here. Can we agree that there's room for improvement, in the art for instance? And if there's room for improvement, why the heck don't people improve it?
Because they want to make money. There is a proven audience of horny losers that want cheescake in their RPG books. It is unreasonable in the extreme to expect WoTC to take a chance that this Immense Group of Female Gamers Who Felt Excluded But Don't Anymore Thanks to the Changes in Artwork and Wording will suddenly materialize, cash in hand. Publishing companies are cowards at heart, and arguably they should be, to be responsible to the shareholders.
Okay, let's cut the crap. What pictures in the Player's Handbook are offensive, and why? I promise that I will not laugh at or mock your reasons. As I said, I largely ignore artwork, so I need to be enlightened. Details, please. Lo, I throw the gauntlet down. Who will pick it up?
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 11:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
One of the reasons I stopped playing DDM was because of this Otherness.
I honestly hope you'll return to playing (if the game still interests you). That has nothing to do with you being a woman ... it has to do with wanting to see more good players at events and (especially) on league nights.
On the other hand, keep in mind ... at some point, unless somebody brings a group, someone has to be the "only woman." I understand why that's hard, but if you're up to it, the next woman to show up and play won't leave because she's the only woman. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
I'm curious, Jim ... do the same counterpoints to the argument apply if we change things from "men and women" to "whites and blacks"?
I'm just curious, as one of the strangest things I've discovered, as a flaming liberal in an even-more-flaming-liberal geographic area, is how many folks on the left will acknowledge racism while denying sexism. (I realize that you're not denying sexism, wholesale.) It's been pretty puzzling for me.
Counselor, I believe that all "isms" are hokum. I deny them ALL. They are smokescreens created by people who want to exploit others for their gain. Y'ever notice that an awful lot of "social activists" drive VERY nice cars? And live in MUCH nicer houses than the people they are "trying to help?" Notice how their "solutions" never seem to, y'know, actually SOLVE problems, but are REALLY good at generating press and, what a coincidence, revenue? There are people that want to make money, there are people that want power, there are people who want to cause others pain.And there are just as many of these people on the Left as there are on the Right. There are people who sincerely want to help, and we don't hear about these people, because they are too busy helping to be "activists."
As I said earlier, there is only one TRUE form of oppression: the oppression of the poor by the rich. All else is smoke and mirrors, designed to maxminize profit and keep people nice and distracted.
"Reverend Activistguy, how come you wear such nice clothes and live in a nice house, when my family and I are barely getting by?"
"Well, you see, my brother... Look! A white man! Oppressing you!"
Y'see, most activists don't want to be white, or male, or whatever. But many of 'em probably wouldn't mind being rich. So they have no interest in deconstructing a system that they want to be a PART of, and they CREATE systems of oppression that serve their purpose. It's all garbage.
To the point, my assertions would not change if race were the issue instead of gender. My advice would be the same: Find non-idiots to play with. In fact, this raises the question: Why don't people talk about the lack of minorities in gaming? I don't believe I've ever seen anything of the sort on this board.
"Hmmmm, this says 'Can o' worms.' I wonder what's inside?"
Good enough, Counselor?
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
I think we can reach common ground here. Can we agree that there's room for improvement, in the art for instance? And if there's room for improvement, why the heck don't people improve it?
Because they want to make money. There is a proven audience of horny losers that want cheescake in their RPG books. It is unreasonable in the extreme to expect WoTC to take a chance that this Immense Group of Female Gamers Who Felt Excluded But Don't Anymore Thanks to the Changes in Artwork and Wording will suddenly materialize, cash in hand. Publishing companies are cowards at heart, and arguably they should be, to be responsible to the shareholders.
Okay, let's cut the crap. What pictures in the Player's Handbook are offensive, and why? I promise that I will not laugh at or mock your reasons. As I said, I largely ignore artwork, so I need to be enlightened. Details, please. Lo, I throw the gauntlet down. Who will pick it up?
JIM
aka kyrin
It doesn't have to be in the Player's Handbook to be a problem.
Meg already gave us a Dragon magazine example, complete with issue number. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
I honestly hope you'll return to playing (if the game still interests you). That has nothing to do with you being a woman ... it has to do with wanting to see more good players at events and (especially) on league nights.
On the other hand, keep in mind ... at some point, unless somebody brings a group, someone has to be the "only woman." I understand why that's hard, but if you're up to it, the next woman to show up and play won't leave because she's the only woman.
I have been toying with the idea of trying again, although now I feel like I'd be starting from scratch! I mostly just need to figure out a way to stop pressuring myself to excell the way I was before. It's not that I don't want to be competitive, I just need to convince myself that I'm not setting back female gamers everywhere if I have a crappy pull at a sealed tournament and end up going 0-5. [B)]
Incidently, Kyrin, I don't think Wizards of the Coast is particularly bad about overly-exploitive artwork. There's still SOME, but most of the artwork I can't stand is in video games. And the whole "The market is driven by horny losers!" seems like a cop-out to me. In my experience, if a game is really solid, it doesn't need the cheesecake to sell at all. The "horny losers" have the internet, after all.
It's one of those things where I think if the cheesecake was gone, most guys either wouldn't notice or wouldn't care. Meanwhile, the women who used to feel marginalized and unwelcome think much, MUCH more warmly towards the game. And as a woman who sometimes puts up with it to get to the happy center of an otherwise good game, I'd be relieved that someone SOMEWHERE finally got it. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
It doesn't have to be in the Player's Handbook to be a problem.
Meg already gave us a Dragon magazine example, complete with issue number.
Sorry, Ian, that's a cop out. If you include the bazillions of images that permeate the gaming literature, EVERYBODY is going to be offended by SOMETHING, and reform is DOA. Let's stick with the Core, y'know, stuff people USE??? In my never to be humble opinion, if something outside the Core is driving you off, you're looking for excuses to be driven off. Stuff outside the Core is firmly in the category of Highly Ignorable. Heck, I ignore some aspects of the Core!
Nice try, but no dice.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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smithmeg
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:16 AM |
| Edit: it seems a lot more conversation happened as I was typing this... it was a response to kyrin's post about the PHB.
As IanB said up the top of this page - most WOTC stuff is now acceptable (there's still a lot of women wearing midrift or low cut tops (and push-up bras) - but that is true of the real world too - and I can live with it).
The art that is a problem to me is the stuff on the periphery (like the cover of February's Dragon magazine), and a lot of the fantasy artwork that is available (in calendars or books and the like). | | | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
It doesn't have to be in the Player's Handbook to be a problem.
Meg already gave us a Dragon magazine example, complete with issue number.
Sorry, Ian, that's a cop out. If you include the bazillions of images that permeate the gaming literature, EVERYBODY is going to be offended by SOMETHING, and reform is DOA. Let's stick with the Core, y'know, stuff people USE??? In my never to be humble opinion, if something outside the Core is driving you off, you're looking for excuses to be driven off. Stuff outside the Core is firmly in the category of Highly Ignorable. Heck, I ignore some aspects of the Core!
Nice try, but no dice.
JIM
aka kyrin
You miss the point entirely. That Dragon or Dungeon cover is sitting there on the shelf *right next* to the PHB, putting it squarely into the same category of product in a new customer's mind. Where's the incentive to pick up the rulebook when it is surrounded by the "ignorable" stuff? How is the new customer supposed to know which sort of stuff "doesn't count"? | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
Incidently, Kyrin, I don't think Wizards of the Coast is particularly bad about overly-exploitive artwork. There's still SOME, but most of the artwork I can't stand is in video games. And the whole "The market is driven by horny losers!" seems like a cop-out to me.
Of course it's a cop-out. Most corporate decisions are. As I said, they are largely cowards by necessity. To expect them to be bold is delusional.
quote:
In my experience, if a game is really solid, it doesn't need the cheesecake to sell at all. The "horny losers" have the internet, after all.
It's one of those things where I think if the cheesecake was gone, most guys either wouldn't notice or wouldn't care. Meanwhile, the women who used to feel marginalized and unwelcome think much, MUCH more warmly towards the game. And as a woman who sometimes puts up with it to get to the happy center of an otherwise good game, I'd be relieved that someone SOMEWHERE finally got it.
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. But neither you nor I matter in the grand scheme o' things. Some publishing companies obviouly think that catering to horny losers is more profitable that catering to people who Just Want A Good Game. As is always the case in such matters, the Almighty Market will decide. Putting one's money where one's mouth is and hoping for the best is really the only strategy.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. But neither you nor I matter in the grand scheme o' things. Some publishing companies obviouly think that catering to horny losers is more profitable that catering to people who Just Want A Good Game. As is always the case in such matters, the Almighty Market will decide. Putting one's money where one's mouth is and hoping for the best is really the only strategy.
I don't understand you blowing in here and blustering the nonsense about how Male Privilege is all in our pretty little minds and how oh no your life span is probably going to be shorter and that balances it all out somehow, then. If you agree the sexist bits don't need to be there at all, WHY actively try to discourage people who want to see that changed? Why dismiss their desires out of hand? | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by smithmeg
The art that is a problem to me is the stuff on the periphery (like the cover of February's Dragon magazine), and a lot of the fantasy artwork that is available (in calendars or books and the like).
Fantasy artwork from other companies WoTC cannot control. And as I note above, if it didn't sell, these companies wouldn't make it.
As to the Dragon, compose a letter. Say that you really wanted to pick up that issue, but were so turned off by the cover that you left it on the shelf. If enough people do that, there will be change. Obviously they think they can sell more magazines with a cheesecake cover than without. Disabuse them of that notion. Corporations really are simple beasts, y'know. [:)]
Glad to hear the PHB is less offensive. Hopefully this will reap the expected harvest of female gamers.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
smithmeg
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
You miss the point entirely. That Dragon or Dungeon cover is sitting there on the shelf *right next* to the PHB, putting it squarely into the same category of product in a new customer's mind. Where's the incentive to pick up the rulebook when it is surrounded by the "ignorable" stuff? How is the new customer supposed to know which sort of stuff "doesn't count"?
Exactly the point - I came to an interest in RPGs (and from there to minis) because I picked up a Dragon magazine in the newsagent one day. This is where the game is marketed to new players (those who don't have friends who already play to introduce them to it). If, the first or second time I picked up the magazine, the cover was something I found offensive, I would have put it back on the shelf, and never considered it again. The artwork has a big impact on people's first impressions. | | | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 12:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
I don't understand you blowing in here and blustering the nonsense about how Male Privilege is all in our pretty little minds and how oh no your life span is probably going to be shorter and that balances it all out somehow, then. If you agree the sexist bits don't need to be there at all, WHY actively try to discourage people who want to see that changed? Why dismiss their desires out of hand?
First off, thank you for mocking my assertions that there might actually be a *downside* to being a man as "nonsense." How understanding and open-minded of you. In fact, that is Tactic #1 on Matt Wilsons's list for marginalizing people. Aren't you proud. Also thanks for putting words in my mouth about "balancing it all out." A sure route to a rational dialogue.
I don't object to efforts to reduce the "gender gap" in gaming. I object to things which will be a waste of time. Letting your desires be known with your wallet is the ONLY way things will change, if you want to cause change in a corporation. If you want to try and change individual idiots who make women feel alienated, well, good luck tilting at that windmill. Putting your energy into finding non-idiots seems to me the better strategy, but it's your blood pressure.
Well, this was civil for awhile at least...
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 1:01 AM |
| Since my intro to D&D almost pre-dates Dragon, I don't think in terms of its ability to draw people into the hobby. I rarely look at it myself, except when someone here points out an interesting issue. My opinion is unchanged however: If you are offended by a cover of Dragon, don't buy the issue, and then get a bunch of likeminded folks together and tell WoTC why you didn't buy it. If enough people do it, it WILL cause change. I mean, the "bad guys" do stuff like this and influence books and records and magazines. Most complaints to the FCC, for example, come from a small group of "concerned citizens." I wish the "good guys" would try it more.
Empirical evidence suggests that a minority *can* influence corporations, if they are noisy enough. So *be* that noisy minority! Get a bunch of friends together (and you've got a bunch of sympatico people here on maxminis to start things off) and start writing letters. Be a Watchdog group! Take gaming away from the horny losers.
Me, I'm going to bed.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 1:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Good enough, Counselor?
For whom?
Honestly, all I can think is, "Hmmm, a self-identified liberal who touts the power of the free market to cure society's ills, and who doesn't believe that people are systematically oppressed because of ethnicity, gender, or sexual oritentation. How very interesting."
Does it give you any pause at all -- like, at all -- that someone like, say, Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly would whole-heartedly agree with you? I realize that asking this question constitutes the implication of a logical fallacy, but I'm just curious. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4803 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/19/2006 3:12 AM |
| Not wanting to get too far off-topic but....
Paizo publishes Dragon and Dungeon. Write them letters, not WotC.
I've been gaming for a long time and the only issues of Dragon I ever plunked the money down for contained DDM maps. If Dragon magazine is considered the prime marketing tool for garnering new customer interest in D&D WotC/Paizo surely needs to rethink that. The vast majority of Dungeon/Dragon magazine is fluff (unnecessary) or munchkin-esque.
More on-topic...
Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly would never agree with Kyrin. Kyrin is quite explicit in his Marxian notion that the only legitimate form of oppression is the rich/poor dichotomy. Limbaugh would argue that the rich class doesn't oppress the poor class (in the current global-capitalist economy). If you are poor and choose to no longer be poor you merely work hard to accrue capital gain and eventually you'll be rich too. You're poor because you choose to remain poor.
I can't agree whole-heartedly with either Kyrin or Limbaugh since the social structure dynamics of oppression and class struggle are far too complex (there are instances when both notions are correct and instances when both notions are dead wrong).
Regarding fantasy artwork I think it's fair to say that offensive artwork isn't likely to go away. In order for objectified depictions to cease the underlying social constructs which allow for objectification would also need to cease. Remember that offensive objectified artwork goes both ways. Images of scantily clad women are offensive to some. Images of scantily clad men are offensive to others. | |
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Bijan Ajamlou
Sneak
91 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 3:37 AM |
| | I think that Dungeon and dragons already is to political correct, more realism would make the women fell less "specialy threted" as it is now D&D shuffels the middele ages women oppration under the carpet. If there is a rollplay in a sertain age then there should be rollplay and women have to act as they are oppreses all the time and that is actually not that hard since they most often could relate to it since they are oppresed in real life! We often comment in our play group whit "wommen know your place!" and we dont lett them join in important towns councills and they get -2str and +2con(all the hard labour they make to make the life of men more comfortable). Women in our playing group that don´t play shy or oppressed risk being shunned down and hunted in the same way wizards are so it is most often fitting to play caster or priest for a women. And women whit high cha risk being raped or could enter concubin like prestigclasses (we use classes from book of vile darkness since they are fitting)...[:o)] | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 3:41 AM |
| There is way more oppression going on in the world than rich on poor.
Not directed at anyone in particular, but it never ceases to amaze me how white male privilege continues to thrive, and most insidiously of all, how many don't even realize the subtle privileges they enjoy. Some privileges are so ingrained that we take them for granted and it takes powerful education to open some eyes. Sadly, some eyes will never be open because they see that their own personal experiences do not match the stereotype of white male privilege. Suffering among the very few in the empowered group does not invalidate the systematic and instutional suffering perpetrated on the many in the disempowered group.
A little back on topic: I will say that it is much worse in the videogame industry than the pen and paper RPG industry. Rumble Roses is a game that makes me cringe for its blatant objectification of women and even a game that huge numbers of women play (WoW) has its own subtle sexism: The fact that female paladins have to endure the skimpiest armor sets in World of Warcraft while their male counterparts are covered head to toe is typical of the problem.
I knew the guys that made those armor sets. Some thought it was just harmless fun. Some wanted to see skimpy hot chicks. And some never even fathomed that a woman might be offended. Very few, if any, of them had malice and intent to demean women. Once they were shown what effect they were having on some female gamers, some started to think better of how they rendered armor sets. Some though, got defensive and blamed the offended people and told them to "grow a thicker skin." But at the end of the day, they started thinking about it, even if some rejected what they heard.
So don't stop bringing up this topic. You move them one mind at a time. Keep it up. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 3:43 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bijan Ajamlou
We often comment in our play group whit "wommen know your place!" and we dont lett them join in important towns councills and they get -2str and +2con(all the hard labour they make to make the life of men more comfortable). Women in our playing group that don´t play shy or oppressed risk being shunned down and hunted in the same way wizards are so it is most often fitting to play caster or priest for a women. And women whit high cha risk being raped or could enter concubin like prestigclasses (we use classes from book of vile darkness since they are fitting)...[:o)]
Please tell me you are joking. I think I am going to vomit. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 4:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Because they want to make money. There is a proven audience of horny losers that want cheescake in their RPG books. It is unreasonable in the extreme to expect WoTC to take a chance that this Immense Group of Female Gamers Who Felt Excluded But Don't Anymore Thanks to the Changes in Artwork and Wording will suddenly materialize, cash in hand. Publishing companies are cowards at heart, and arguably they should be, to be responsible to the shareholders.
I think you were attempting to be sarcastic with this scenario here, but this is exactly what is going on.
It's been like this for 20+ years, and after two decades, it's pretty tiresome. Go read Gygax's rants about "feminists" on ENWorld if you really want a throwback to the 50's.
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 6:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrusRush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly would never agree with Kyrin.
Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly would absolutely agree with Jim's assertion that racism, sexism, and (presumably) homsexism are "hokum." They would likewise agree with Jim's assertion that the market will fix the perceived problems in those areas.
They would also disagree with his ideas of class oppression (with which, in general, I agree).
Those two things -- their agreement and disagreement -- are not mutually exclusive, and no attempt at sleight-of-quotation will make them so.
quote:
Kyrin is quite explicit in his Marxian notion that the only legitimate form of oppression is the rich/poor dichotomy.
I know what you meant, but you might wanna be careful talking about "legitimate forms of oppression," especially when ascribing words to Jim. He's a little ... twitchy about such things. It amuses most of us, but it might also get the thread locked. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 8:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Good enough, Counselor?
For whom?
Honestly, all I can think is, "Hmmm, a self-identified liberal who touts the power of the free market to cure society's ills, and who doesn't believe that people are systematically oppressed because of ethnicity, gender, or sexual oritentation. How very interesting."
Does it give you any pause at all -- like, at all -- that someone like, say, Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly would whole-heartedly agree with you? I realize that asking this question constitutes the implication of a logical fallacy, but I'm just curious.
Agree with me? Maybe. Random chance dictates that those gents are going to be right occasionally. A broken watch is right twice a day. Wholeheartedly? Well, since I think that the oppression of the poor by the rich is BAD, a situation that should be rectified instead of celebrated? You're reaching, Counselor.
And I never said that the Free Market is a solution to all of society's ills. (Personal Foul. 15 Yards. Putting words in sombody else's mouth.) I'm saying if you want to change the way a corporation does things, you vote with your wallet. Bill O'Reilly encourages "his people" to do things this way. Why is encouraging the "good guys" to likewise a Bad Thing?
Very nice, Counselor. I gave you an honest answer to your question, and you attack my character with a 21st-Century variation on the hackeneyed "Hitler was a vegetarian too!" argument. You shouldn't ask questions that (you think) you already know the answer to. It's never nice to realize that your good intentions are being exploited by others, so I can understand your anger, Wayne. But it probably shouldn't be directed at me. As Sinead O'Connor said, "Fight the real enemy." (Although she was buying into the lie as well.)
And I never said I was a Liberal. I'm all about Diversity, and Moderation in all things, including political views. I *do* have some Marxist beliefs, but I realize that Marx was a dreamer. That is, if he wasn't just a guy trying to sell books.
Which returns me nicely to my original point, so I will stop.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 8:05 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by proudft
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Because they want to make money. There is a proven audience of horny losers that want cheescake in their RPG books. It is unreasonable in the extreme to expect WoTC to take a chance that this Immense Group of Female Gamers Who Felt Excluded But Don't Anymore Thanks to the Changes in Artwork and Wording will suddenly materialize, cash in hand. Publishing companies are cowards at heart, and arguably they should be, to be responsible to the shareholders.
I think you were attempting to be sarcastic with this scenario here, but this is exactly what is going on.
It's been like this for 20+ years, and after two decades, it's pretty tiresome. Go read Gygax's rants about "feminists" on ENWorld if you really want a throwback to the 50's.
I was being completely and totally sincere. It may be tiresome, but it appears to be profitable. Show these companies that there is a better (i.e., more profitable) way, and things will change. It will not happen otherwise. Y'all are making the assumption that because I realize this simple fact, that I enjoy it or approve of it.
I DO NOT
I don't much enjoy gravity either sometimes, but gravity does not care. Assertion is not apology. Just because I prefer to live in the Real World does not mean I approve of every aspect of it.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 8:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Well, since I think that the oppression of the poor by the rich is BAD, a situation that should be rectified instead of celebrated? You're reaching, Counselor.
Since that's not what I said they'd agree with you about, and have, in fact, explicitly said exactly the opposite, I'm not sure what you're objecting to.
quote:
And I never said that the Free Market is a solution to all of society's ills. (Personal Foul. 15 Yards. Putting words in sombody else's mouth.)
Ironically, I never said that you said "all" of society's ills. In fact, I was deliberately careful to avoid claiming you said that. (Not that being careful did much good.)
quote:
I'm saying if you want to change the way a corporation does things, you vote with your wallet.
I think that's a legitimate way to attempt to effect change. I happen to think it's not the only legitimate way to attempt to effect change, one of the others being an attempt to get people to look at their own beliefs, and why they cling to them so strongly, no matter what evidence is presented that they are, at least possibly, wrong.
quote:
Very nice, Counselor. I gave you an honest answer to your question, and you attack my character with a 21st-Century variation on the hackeneyed "Hitler was a vegetarian too!" argument.
See? Twitchy. I even acknowledged the logical fallacy right up front, and he still goes off like Russell Crowe on crank and unlimited supply of the new Motorola Razr.
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I can understand your anger, Wayne. But it probably shouldn't be directed at me.
My what now?
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And I never said I was a Liberal.
Au contraire. You've explicitly told me you were a liberal. (I dunno what the difference is, if any, between the big- and little-L is, though.) If you're now saying you're not, however, I have no reason to doubt you. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 8:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Well, since I think that the oppression of the poor by the rich is BAD, a situation that should be rectified instead of celebrated? You're reaching, Counselor.
Since that's not what I said they'd agree with you about, and have, in fact, explicitly said exactly the opposite, I'm not sure what you're objecting to.
If I didn't know you were being disingenuous here to try and cover your rhetorical hinder, I would suggest looking up the word "wholeheartedly" in the dictionary. Mind the brush you try and tar people with, Counselor.
quote:
I happen to think it's not the only legitimate way to attempt to effect change, one of the others being an attempt to get people to look at their own beliefs, and why they cling to them so strongly, no matter what evidence is presented that they are, at least possibly, wrong.
And the reason that so many liberals are so incredibly bad at effecting change in this manner is because they are so reluctant to examine their own beliefs. And react so strongly when someone challenges THEM. Something about removing a mote from your brother's eye?
quote:
See? Twitchy. I even acknowledged the logical fallacy right up front, and he still goes off like Russell Crowe on crank and unlimited supply of the new Motorola Razr.
Acknowledging that something is BS up front doesn't absolve it from being BS. Do you try that in court, Counselor? "Your Honor, I know this evidence is nonsense, but nonetheless..."
And my friend, you have more heads of locked threads on your belt than I could *ever* boast of. You are the Lord of Twitch. To coin a cliche: Pot. Kettle. Black.
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quote:
I can understand your anger, Wayne. But it probably shouldn't be directed at me.
My what now?
Again, if you weren't being disingenuous here, I'd suggest you read again, this time for comprehension.
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quote:
And I never said I was a Liberal.
Au contraire. You've explicitly told me you were a liberal. (I dunno what the difference is, if any, between the big- and little-L is, though.)
You will, after you've grown up and gotten more experience. I have faith in you.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 8:59 AM |
| Lemme see. So far you've accused me of:
(1) Saying Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly would agree with you about the oppression of the poor by the rich. Something I never said.
(2) Of calling you a "big-L" Liber |
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