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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
    
 | | 04/26/2006 4:08 PM |
| Sorry to be such a tool when it comes to this, but sometimes I cannot grasp the switch to 3rd edition as much as I'd like to.
Trying to figure out the penalties for multiclassing is being a pain right now.
One of my players character has opted for multiclassing. So he is a 4th level Bard that now has added 1st level Rogue.
According to the way we are reading the rules both are unfavored classes and (our interpretation) we are struggling to see if it should be a 20% deduction or 40% deduction.
Some say 20% because only of the gap and the racial factor only comes into play once you add a 3rd class. Some say 40% because since there are no favored classes those two unfavored count and add up to the gap penalty.
So anyone care to explain such a simple yet buffling rule to me pls? The examples in the PHB are not helping this case. Thanks! | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
Some say 40% because since there are no favored classes those two unfavored count and add up to the gap penalty.
If there was a favored class involved, there would be no XP penalty at all in 2 classes, making this sentence wrong. That leaves you at just 20%. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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LargeMarmot
Sergeant
463 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:23 PM |
| | The 20% hit is per class that is not within one level of your highest class level. Favored class just means that you ignore that class for hat conderation. Therefore the charicter will take a 20% exp hit for his rouge class being 3 levels below and will continue to take the hit until he reaches 3rd level in rouge if he dosnt take any more levels in bard. At that point he can either keep the classed within one level of one another by gaining a level in each class and take no exp penalty. Don't worry yourself over the favored class stuff too much, it's actually alot esayer than the old system in my opinion. | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/26/2006 4:25 PM |
| There's no XP penalty based on race.
You take a -20% XP hit for having uneven (two or more levels difference) classes. This is cumulative for each class you have that is uneven.
Example:
A Gnome is a 9th-level Rogue. He adds a level of Bard (favored class for gnomes so no penalty). He then adds a level of Fighter (one class uneven so -20% XP). He then adds a level of Druid (two classes uneven so -40% XP). At this point you have a Rogue9/Bard1/Fighter1/Druid1 only receiving 60% of awarded XP.
A Human is a 9th-level Rogue. He adds a level of Bard (Rogue is favored-class being the highest-level class and he's human) with no penalty. Next added is a level of fighter (still no penalty since Rogue is the high and Bard1/Fighter1 are even). Add a level of Druid and still no XP penalty (Bard/Fighter/Druid are even, Rogue doesn't count since he's human). In this scenario you again have a Rogue9/Bard1/Fighter1/Druid1 but in this instance is receiving 100% of awarded XP.
Hope this helps. | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:27 PM |
| so the first (original) class, no matter what it is (favored or not) does not count towards any penalty but it does count (if favored) towards a deduction?
So the race factor comes into play only after picking a 3rd class then. | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:30 PM |
| | Thanks guys!, it does help a lot, I appreciate the help. Go figure, we figured out turning in 3E but we couldn't grasp this one [B)] | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
so the first (original) class, no matter what it is (favored or not) does not count towards any penalty but it does count (if favored) towards a deduction?
So the race factor comes into play only after picking a 3rd class then.
Not quite. Don't take *first* class into it. You always figure it out to what ever would be best for the character.
This is important with humans. If I take 1 level in Fighter, then 5 in Wizards, than 1 in Rogue, I still have no XP Penalty because it's best to think of Wizards in this case as favored class so you do. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/26/2006 4:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
so the first (original) class, no matter what it is (favored or not) does not count towards any penalty but it does count (if favored) towards a deduction?
So the race factor comes into play only after picking a 3rd class then.
What race factor are you talking about? The only reference to race is that each race has a favored class (humans have favored class: whichever is highest level). Race only matters as a function of whether or not a class if favored. | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1928 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:37 PM |
|
The basic rule for multiclass experience penalties (in 3.5) is this:
A character takes a 20% experience penalty for each class that is two or more levels below his or her highest level class.
In the case of the Bard 4 / Rogue 1, the character's highest level class is 4th level, so there is a 20% penalty for each additional class that is level 2 or lower. In this case, that's just the Rogue class, so there is a 20% penalty.
If the character's race has a favored class, then you calculate the penalty as if the character had no levels in that class at all. For humans and half-elves, their favored class is whichever class they have the most levels in, so you never include the highest level class for those races.
So, for example, what if we had a Fighter 5 / Rogue 2 / Wizard 1...
If the character was human, the highest level class is treated as its favored class, so the experience penalty would be calculated without including the Fighter levels. For a human, this is equivalent to being a Rogue 2 / Wizard 1, which doesn't result in a penalty.
The character might be an elf, who have Wizard as a favored class. For an elf, that same combination is equivalent to being a Fighter 5 / Rogue 2. Since the number of levels in the Rogue class is two or more levels lower than the highest class, that's a 20% penalty.
If the character was a Half-Orc, none of these classes are its favored class. So all the classes apply to the calculation. Since both the Rogue and Wizard classes are two or more levels lower than the highest level class, that's a 40% experience penalty.
Hope that helps...
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
so the first (original) class, no matter what it is (favored or not) does not count towards any penalty but it does count (if favored) towards a deduction?
So the race factor comes into play only after picking a 3rd class then.
What race factor are you talking about? The only reference to race is that each race has a favored class (humans have favored class: whichever is highest level). Race only matters as a function of whether or not a class if favored.
I replied before I read your explanation. So disregard that as I got it now. Finally we can put this crap to rest in my group [:D] We were interpreting that not having a favored class gave you a penalty, just like having one gave you a deduction. We are old, sorry [)] | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/26/2006 4:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
We are old, sorry [)]
No worries. I was just thoroughly confused [:D]
Now you may resume filling the geriatric ward with the sounds of rolling d20s [:P] | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LCS
[snip]
Hope that helps...
That was just crystal clear, tyvm! | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:43 PM |
| | On a similar vain, anyone ever think it was weird there is no exception to the XP rule for NPC classes? I know that prestige classes do not count towards XP penalties but I always felt NPC classes should be part of that too. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
On a similar vain, anyone ever think it was weird there is no exception to the XP rule for NPC classes? I know that prestige classes do not count towards XP penalties but I always felt NPC classes should be part of that too.
Is there really level advancement for NPCs? I thought they were just what they are and if they needed to be higher they just get to be. | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 4:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
quote:
Originally posted by reezel
On a similar vain, anyone ever think it was weird there is no exception to the XP rule for NPC classes? I know that prestige classes do not count towards XP penalties but I always felt NPC classes should be part of that too.
Is there really level advancement for NPCs? I thought they were just what they are and if they needed to be higher they just get to be.
Yeah, there are NPC classes in the DMG. Commoner and Adept are two of them. Don't remember the others. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 5:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
Yeah, there are NPC classes in the DMG. Commoner and Adept are two of them. Don't remember the others.
Aristocrat, Expert and Warrior. Those are the only 3 that *might* be useful for PC's. But why do you really want to punish PC's for taking two levels of expert with an XP loss? I think taking an NPC class is enough of a hit as it is. | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 10:16 PM |
| | From a role-playing perspective, some people like to start their campaigns with each PC having 1 level in an NPC class. These are not counted toward XP penalties but I'm not sure how they handle having enough XP for 1st level, 2nd level, etc. in normal PC classes. The basic idea is that your PC probably started out as a commoner, aristocrat, expert, etc. before the adventuring life called out to him/her. From the DM's perspective getting the right CRs early on can be a bit problematic since the PCs may be underpowered or else will have slightly more HPs, skill points, and BAB than just counting their PC levels, but this effect probably disappears at later levels and the CR system has to be applied via the DM's personal taste anyways since it isn't perfect. | |
Champion of the Bone Naga
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/26/2006 10:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by GristlemaneAristocrat, Expert and Warrior. Those are the only 3 that *might* be useful for PC's. But why do you really want to punish PC's for taking two levels of expert with an XP loss? I think taking an NPC class is enough of a hit as it is.
This was my thought. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 04/27/2006 5:56 PM |
| | Also just to be even more confusing monster classes do not count for an exp penelty. BUt those are only used for the savage species and other "non standard" races. | |
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