Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
    
West Valley City, Utah
 | | 04/30/2006 5:41 PM |
| I have a different grapple question (I just read a thread about Dex bonus and grappling and it reminded me of this question I have).
If the characters are working together (say four or more) to grapple a single "monster" elf who is fighting the party, and they are grappling him and have handcuffed him, at what point is he captured? If he is handcuffed (with MW manacles for instance), would he still get his normal grapple check to get unpinned, or would there be some kind of penalty?
What's the point of handcuffs if you use them, and the person can still keep wrestling with no penalty? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
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Knight of the
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Thenameless
Warlord
12481 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/30/2006 5:54 PM |
| | I have a very average build, but I think if you put me up against a UFC submission specialist who was handcuffed, I could still beat him ninety percent of the time. I'd give a -20 to a grapple check to guy in handcuffs. | |
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K Rich
Sneak
69 Posts
| | 04/30/2006 6:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
...if you put me up against a UFC submission specialist who was handcuffed, I could still beat him ninety percent of the time. I'd give a -20 to a grapple check to guy in handcuffs.
I don't know, UFC guys are good with their feet, too. [)] But yeah, when somebody is handcuffed, they are usually done. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12481 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/30/2006 6:23 PM |
| | I have some mixed martial arts background - just not built like Ken Shamrock or Tito Ortiz. If either of these guys was handcuffed behind the back (with good handcuffs), I would bet on me. You have very poor balance with your hands tied behind your back, and when the other guy eventually drops, I ain't lettin' him back up. But still, fighting a handcuffed guy is a ridiculous handicap - maybe one hand tied behind the back would be better. But then I would bet on the UFC guy. | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 04/30/2006 6:42 PM |
| | I'm asking this because our two dwarven fighters (level 10) and our elven ranger and elven rogue (also level 10) were all grappling this elven havoc mage (level 11?) and we would get him pinned. Every turn, he would successfully get unpinned and cast the spell shout and nail us all for about 20 force damage and a save vs. being deafened. We finally pinned him and handcuffed him, and the DM still had him successfully break free to cast shout. It was driving me nuts. The reason we were grappling him is that he had used dust of disappearance and we were able to surround him so that he wouldn't get away. My dwarven fighter was at 5 hp at the end. One character was at -2. None of us had many hp left. My dwarf has a max hp of about 108. I don't think we were damaged much at all before this fight, if at all. There were seven characters in our group of level 10. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Dragon Snack
Warrior
285 Posts
| | 04/30/2006 7:44 PM |
| The goggles do nothing!
OK, the manacles do nothing, but it wouldn't be as funny if I had started out with that...
Shout only has a Verbal component, so all he would have to do is make a Concentration check to cast the spell. He wouldn't have to succeed on a grapple check unless you were trying to gag him. PHB pg 156, under "Cast A Spell".
To escape from the manacles would take an Escape Artist check (DC 30 or 35) or a Strength check (DC 26 or 28), not a grapple check. PHB pg 126, under "Manacles and Manacles, Masterwork".
Also, only 4 (or less, obviously) combatants can grapple a single opponent. PHB pg 157, "Multiple Grapplers".
Additionally, while I'm not up on what a Havoc Mage can do (I don't even know what book that's in), so not all of this may apply...
The Shout spell does Sonic damage not Force damage (although he could have been using Energy Substitution).
A successful save reduces the damage by half, as a Dwarven Fighter you should have had a good chance to make those Fortitude saves (+7 Fort for 10th lvl Ftr, +2 Dwarven racial bonus against spells, plus whatever your Con bonus is).
Shout has a "cone shaped burst" for an area of effect, so unless he had the Sculpt Spell feat he could only hit one of you at a time with the spell (and he would be catching himself in the AoE unless he had the feat that allowed you to avoid hitting one creature in the AoE - can't think of it's name right now). | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 04/30/2006 9:39 PM |
| Ok, it was sonic damage, not force damage.
He was hitting himself with each shout, as well as all four of us that were grappling him. My point about the grappling with manacles is that if he were manacled, it would be much harder for him to remove our hands from covering his mouth so that he could shout. I didn't explain that part very well.
My fighter missed a reflex save on the empowered fireball that started the combat. My fighter only failed one of the saves on the shout spell, but it was cast four or five times.
The elf spell caster was a havoc mage/warmage. He had battlecasting (allowing him to attack and cast spell in same turn without provoking attacks of opportunity). | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 04/30/2006 11:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Snack
Additionally, while I'm not up on what a Havoc Mage can do (I don't even
Mini hand book [:)] | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 05/01/2006 2:12 PM |
| | Sometimes, a GM will just invest alot of time and energy into a villian and they can have a really hard time when the PC's circumvent and disable said NPC without too much of a fight. At those times, a good DM can turn into a bit of a di@# and just not use common sense. To break a grapple with three people, if each grappled seperately, he would need to make one attack on each to break each grapple seperatly. It is why in reallity, it is near impossible to fight your way out of a "dog pile." | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/01/2006 4:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
To break a grapple with three people, if each grappled seperately, he would need to make one attack on each to break each grapple seperatly.
Oh, good point. Thanks for bringing that up.
Just wondering--if the first person has him pinned, do the others pretty much get a "free pin" since the guy who is pinned can't really grapple to prevent the 2nd and 3rd person from pinning him?
If he were pinned by 3-4 of the people grappling him, and he doesn't have 4 attacks per round, he couldn't ever get free to cast a spell, even if it was a verbal only and he has feat that doesn't allow attacks of opportunity?
I really think the case was that he had prepared this guy and was really excited about the challenge it was going to be, and then we unexpectedly did things that should have neutralized it rather quickly. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 05/01/2006 5:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
I really think the case was that he had prepared this guy and was really excited about the challenge it was going to be, and then we unexpectedly did things that should have neutralized it rather quickly.
We had the same thing in our game a couple of weeks ago... a former PC turned evil nasty NPC had a whole group set up an ambush for our group but well timed use of a potion of Clairaudience allowed our group to get the drop on the enemy and really clean their clock. We captured all of the leaders very quickly (except the former PC who turned swarm form and burrowed into the ground.) The 10th level CE Illusionist ended up having all of the necessary feats to cast certain spells stilled, silenced and component free. So even when we had him securely bound and gagged, he still managed to start casting spells and even cast gaseous form ??? Some times... the GM just really wants something to happen. | |
"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/01/2006 6:17 PM |
| Grappling is complicated and needs a rewrite, imo.
However, in this case, I don't see any reason he couldn't keep *trying* to get out. He should just have a large circumstance penalty assigned. Certainly manacles won't stop him from using shout, which is V only for components.
Also, regarding multiple grapplers, when you're making an attempt to escape the grapple, you only have to make one check to escape, but that check must beat the result of all the other grapplers. It does not require multiple separate grapple checks.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#multipleGrapplers | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/01/2006 6:58 PM |
| I think you should be able to gag him once you have him pinned. That should take care of the shout. You could also have one person try and maintain the pin whilst the others do subdual damage. That should mess up ye olde Concentration checks. And he should have to make a roll against everyone grappling him.
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Dragon Snack
Warrior
285 Posts
| | 05/01/2006 7:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by spikegif
quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Snack
Additionally, while I'm not up on what a Havoc Mage can do (I don't even
Mini hand book [:)]
Thanks.
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