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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
    
Québec
 | | 05/04/2006 9:20 AM |
| I am a little confused about the Metamagic feats.Are the most powerful ones ( Maximize,
Empower,Quicken,Extend And Widen ) for ALL spells or a specific spell level or one spell ? One of my players wants to take Maximize and it seems game-breaking.
Could someone please explain how Metamagic feats work ? Thanks in advance. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/04/2006 9:34 AM |
| Is the player a Wizard or Sorcerer? Basically all the metamagic feats give an effect and they modify the spell level. Modifying the spell level means that you have to use a higher-level spell slot to cast or memorize it. So if a wizard wanted to memorize "empowered magic missile" he would memorize it as a 3rd level spell, in one of his 3rd level slots. When he casts it, the result is nearly the same as if he cast a 1st level magic missile, but the damage is multiplied by 1.5.
So if your player took the Maximize spell feat, and he wanted to use it on the fireball spell, he would have to use a 6th level spell slot. Then, when he cast it, it would do his level x 6 damage, since that's the maximum damage for a fireball.
Does this help? | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/04/2006 10:02 AM |
| A couple of other things to note about MM feats.
They don't actually raise the level of the spell, just the slot it occupies. For example, if a Fireball spell is Quickened it will occupy a 7th level slot, but the save DC and other related elements of the spell should be calculated as though it's a 3rd level spell.
You of course have to have the slot in question open. The minimum level a Wizard could be and Quicken a fireball is 13th. Most MM feats are much more useful the higher in level you are, they aren't great feats for low level casters.
The MM feats are solid choices, I used to think they were underpowered, I don't see them being broken at all.
Edit: Changed Maximize to Quicken.
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 05/04/2006 10:07 AM |
| All the metamagical feats you asked about are not tied to a specific spell level or spell. They can be applied to every spell the caster can cast. Even from different classes (a Wizard/Cleric for example). The process of preparing modified spell differs depending on the spellcaster. (A wizard or cleric for example have to prepare in advance the modified version of the spell, say maximized fireball, and count it as a spell in the modified spell leve, 6th in this example).
I do not share your feeling that the feats are game-breaking. Try it and find out. The spell level bump is not to be overlooked. Instead of casting maximized fireball, the caster could have cast Mass Suggestion, Disintigrate or Chain Lightning.
Now, maximized Fireball will do 60 damage to 20 ft spread but Chain Lightning can do 20d6 (70 on average) to one creature and half that (35 on avarage) to 20 more targets within 30 ft. of the primary target) from very long distance. I can't decide which spell is "better". They seem to have similar power. | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 05/04/2006 11:20 AM |
| From the SRD:
Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.
The descriptions of these feats seem pretty clear, but in case its not here's how it works (essentially restating what's above):
If a character has the Maximize Spell feat, he/she can choose to prepare a Maximized spell (if he/she prepares spells- e.g. wizard) or spontaneously cast a Maximized spell (if he/she is a spontaneous caster- e.g. sorcerer). This feat could possibly be applied to any spell that has variable numeric values for things like damage, healing, ability damage, etc. Set elements such as range, duration, and save DC are not affected by Maximize Spell.
Metamagic feats (AFAIK) can be applied to any level spell that the character can cast, so long as the new effective spell level (after applying the feat) is also a level the character can currently cast. In the case of Maximize Spell, the new ("effective") spell level is 3 levels higher than the original (unmodified) spell.
For example, a 7th level wizard wants to prepare a maximized magic missle. The unchanged variable here is that a 7th level caster will produce 4 missles. The feat will cause each missle to simply do 5 points of damage rather than 1d4+1. The Maximized Magic Missle MUST be prepared using a 4th-level spell slot (or higher if another metamagic feat is applied, but this 7th-level wizard cannot prepare a spell level higher than 4th). This is the "cost" of preparing a spell with a metamagic feat. Therefore this particular wizard has to "give up" the casting of a 4th level spell for that day in order to cast a maximized Magic Missle. The "best" spells to maximize are those with muliple damage dice that scale with caster level, so Magic Missle probably isn't the best example.
The example above works essentially the same for a sorcerer- he/she has to "use up" a 4th level slot for the day to cast maximized magic missle rather than a 4th level spell he/she knows. The difference is that adding a feat to a spontaneous spell for a sorcerer makes casting that spell a full round action, which somewhat limits the character's flexibility but still isn't a bad tradeoff for the capability to potentially get a lot more use out of your metamagic feats. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/04/2006 5:06 PM |
| | can I also assume that if the feats you apply to a spell would take it over a level you had slots for it can't be done? So if you had no 6th level slots you could not use a feat that brought the spell above 5th which is the highest slot you have. Similarly you could not enhance a spell if it would go over level 9 assuming you could even cast level 9 spells. So no maximized meteor swarms for example. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 05/04/2006 5:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
can I also assume that if the feats you apply to a spell would take it over a level you had slots for it can't be done? So if you had no 6th level slots you could not use a feat that brought the spell above 5th which is the highest slot you have. Similarly you could not enhance a spell if it would go over level 9 assuming you could even cast level 9 spells. So no maximized meteor swarms for example.
Correct on the first point... but incorrect on the second. In epic levels, there is a feat to increase your highest level spell and get epic level spells. You can have 10th, 11th, 12th, etc... level spells. You just have to be high enough level and have enough feats available. Those slots are really only good for meta magic spells. There are other possible ways too... circle magic for red wizards allow them to do all sorts of broken things. I saw a powerfull red wizard cast a quickened, silent, stilled, maximized, empowered scorching ray. A 13th level spell normally. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 05/07/2006 11:51 AM |
| Thanks to everyone that answered, it is right that I neglected the fact that you do have to
use higher level slots and some spells of that level can already be potentially stronger or
more useful. I will tell my Sorceror/Void Disciple I will allow the Maximize feat. | |
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The number ONE fanatic Of Dread Guards ! I own 66 !!! And the GMR1 !!!
119 completed trades so far...NB called shot: Medusa | |
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