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Rising Dragon
Sneak
91 Posts
    
 | | 05/06/2006 8:51 PM |
| I was on my way to my gaming group when decided to check my answering machine. It was DM saying sorry the guys don't like you anymore so we’re kicking you out. The reason, you pointed out that rule that we were total getting it wrong. Maybe I came off as jerk or something (it was around ll:00 in almost 10 hour session), another possibility is that they just don’t like it when someone can prove them wrong when they playing that way for years.
I didn’t always use be rule lawyer, there was time I used to be one your average players. But after years of being just a DM, almost knowing every word players handbook, and learning the secret art of min-maxing, I became one those evil creatures that gamers like to call rules lawyers!
I never had problems with rules lawyer myself. Could be fact I usually the one around the table who knows the most rules. When I DM, if player has dispute about rules I’m always willing let them point it out book that proves they’re case as long not interfering with game or a characters life is on the line. Unless it’s a house rule I feel obligated to point rules that I know aren’t being used correctly. Possible that I just like a good rules debate time to time (as long doesn’t get out of hand). I also DM told me ‘well I’m not going to do that way’ after I brought up case and I’ve drop it. The only thing I won’t drop is when they try to tell me how rules are when I clearly know that you got it wrong or misinterpreting them.
This is second time this has happen to me. Both in cases it was with group of mostly strangers that didn’t really spend time with outside of gaming. Both times these groups didn’t even bothered talk me or warn me that might be stepping over the line. It was sorry man we don’t want you come back.
Sigh looks like back to finding a gaming group for me. Hopefully I might learn form this.
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Shoe
Sergeant
804 Posts
| | 05/06/2006 9:14 PM |
| Sorry to hear about it.
[:(]
Out of curiosity, was there a particular rule debate/argument that came up?
I run much of my games "by the book", and have only a few "house rules", but even then those house rules are more like character generation options than significantly changing the ways the rules work.
I've found it a challenge when gaming with a group that doesn't use the rules correctly or ignores/forgets some rules, and so I tend to try to play with people that are conversant with the rules. If I'm not DMing, however, and the DM isn't following the proper rules, I usually just sit back and keep my mouth shut, since I know I'm usually right about such things, but an argument rarely helps matters (plus, I don't like undermining the DM's power). Of course, if that helps lead to a poor (not fun) play experience, then I won't return to that group.
For me, those types of situations occur only when I play in games at conventions, since I've the luxury of a plethora of rules "experts" to game with. Outside of those "professionals", my other players usually defer to me anyway, since I was there to help them learn how to play 3e the right way (and 2e before that).
But it's always good to hear where disagreements in the rules come up, since it helps us make the game better when we can address such things (via FAQ, posts, or some sourcebook like Complete @@). | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/06/2006 9:19 PM |
| Well that's the funny thing about "rules", I'm old school enough to remember when the only rule was the DM was always right. As long as he played it fair for both sides it didn't matter what the specific rule in question was.
Even if it was wrong by the "rules" if that's the way they were playing it for years then guess what, that was the rule.
Now if that disagreement was the reason you got pitched, it sucks. Especially not having the guts to do it face to face and maybe work something out.
A helpful thing to remember is the rules are actually merely guidelines, don't let them get in the way of having fun. [:)] | | | |
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 05/06/2006 9:34 PM |
| Well, I guess the most important thing to keep in mind for these sorts of things is that there are no rules, only guidelines. I play it pretty fast and loose by times if it makes for a better story in mine or my players minds.
Many years of DMing have honed my sense of balance and potential abuse so I can head those things off quickly and my players generally know what will wash with me in one of my games.
Still, I'm not perfect and sometimes we have to retrofit things a bit to help things along, "rules" or no "rules".
If everyone is having fun, go to it. Don't let a book tell you are wrong. | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 05/06/2006 9:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Shoe
(via FAQ, posts, or some sourcebook like Complete @@).
Wow, Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, and now Complete Boobies! Just how many books are you guys gonna put out in that series?[:p]
Sorry, can't help it. I haven't eaten in about 10 hours, so my head is doing some strange things. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
12481 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/07/2006 12:08 AM |
| | Sometimes being right isn't worth it. It can be a matter of timing too. Usually, it's better to let a situation play out, especially in the middle of an exciting episode - you don't want to break the group's enjoyment with a debate. Point out an error or rules discrepancy to a DM or player outside of the game, and try to do it in a constructive way. | |
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Dragon Snack
Warrior
285 Posts
| | 05/07/2006 12:36 AM |
| The rules assure that everyone has a level playing field. I don't mind "Rules Lawyers" at my table* and we often will look up a rule if we are unsure about it (I've played enough systems and editions that I will admit that I can't remember EVERYTHING - that's not my job anyway). With 3 ex-DMs as players (who love to do things out of the ordinary) we do this often and it doesn't take long to find the rule in question.
If it's the second time this has happened to you though, maybe you should take a look at how much of a Rules Lawyer you are or if it's something else. Not being friends out of game is a big tip off that you may not be suited to the groups.
*assuming they aren't trying to pull off some cheesy move with an obviously broken spell or blatent misinterpretation. | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 05/07/2006 12:43 AM |
| Having gamed with rules lawyers (and sometimes having been one myself) I can tell you that there are very few things that can suck the life/fun out of a game like a rules "debate".
It completely shatters the mood and momentum of the game.
When I've caught myself, I've always tried to apologize and talk to the DM/GM AFTER we're done gaming for the session or during the break. Sometimes they've been factoring in other modifiers that I was unaware of. Sometimes they were wrong. A couple of times I was wrong.
Play it out, let it go, talk to the DM afterwards. Find out if there's anything else going on behind the scenes that may have modified the situation (a "yes"/"no" type question), and most importantly try not to come off like a jerk about it. Do NOT go to the DM and tell him/her that he/she couldn't DM his/her way out of a wet paper sack. Do NOT tell him/her what the rules are and why you are right. Have a discussion.
It would probably also help you if you could find a group that you like to associate with outside of the game. People tend to be much more forgiving of incidents like this if they already consider the person a friend. | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 05/07/2006 1:21 AM |
| Adherence to the rules allows for gaming at conventions to go smoothly. It allows various groups of gamers to get together and be able to play games without having misunderstanding because of different sets of rules. That said I think the rules are only that important if you plan to play in these types events on a routine basis.
As a player I would rather go as far into character as I can and let the DM tell me what I need to do for anything I attempt. As a DM I have always asked players to hold arguments until breaks in the game unless it meant the death of your character then by all means start the debate.
My suggestion to you Rising Dragon is to ask at the beginning how you handle a situation if you think there might have been a misuse of a rule. It might players wary of you as a rules monger but if they answer you honestly you will be able to better tailor your reactions to what the group will accept. Also if the group finds later that they feel you are too concerned with the rules they will be more likely to tell you before they kick you out since you asked previously. Any of us finding groups we fit well with is truly priceless and we need to appreciate it when we do. | |
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Arandae
Sergeant
713 Posts
UK
| | 05/07/2006 7:16 AM |
| Sorry to read that Rising Dragon. You have my sympathy. Putting the message on your answerphone was also rather unkind.
I feel like many of the posters here. The rules are all well and good, but ultimately every ruling has to be the DM's decision. When I'm a player I usually try just twice to persuade the DM of the meaning of a rule (once just saying how I think the rule works, and once again with the page ref and exact quote if he isn't convinced). But whatever the DM then decides on is how we have to play it. If the ruling is not to your advantage on that occasion, it might be on another [)].
I guess the 'rule of thumb' is that the DM has a hard enough job as it is, and everyone is keen to keep the game moving.
If the game actually becomes overly 'silly' as a result of a poor ruling, that will become evident (eventually). And then, outside the game, it's easier to have a quiet chat with the DM to sort out how the rule should work. Otherwise, just let it drop. | |
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Tasmanian_tiger
Warrior
300 Posts
| | 05/07/2006 8:59 AM |
| Well.. I don't mind being remembered of the rules, as a DM, but not during roleplaying. Like when all the characters are IC, the situation is rolling out and suddenly, bang, rule discussion.
What I lately tend to do, is ask (shortly) someone that isn't involved in the rp-moment to look this rule up. Hold up the situation a little, involving the rule. Rp along with the rest of the group. If the rule is clear (and does not require discussion (not right or wrong, sometimes, there are different interpretations) then I will use the rule. If it isn't the clear, then it's a debate for the breaks 'between'. Even when we do it wrong. Unless, like someone said before, it's a life-dead situation for the character.
I certainly don't know all the rules, I don't mind correcting, but not when it's interrupting the rp-moment and the whole group comes to a halt.
That's my point of view. I guess it's also about in what kind of group you're playing. ;) | |
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Rising Dragon
Sneak
91 Posts
| | 05/07/2006 11:00 AM |
| Wow thanks for all the advice. A lot of you brought real good points.
Here are some more details for those who requested it. The first time it happen was the first group I started playing D&D 3rd edition with. For month everything was good I was new learning the rules for first time. The group used very little house rules and was very strict on using the rules. Rules debates were often. Then one day I decided to join in, after pointing out a rule that notice the group was using wrong one player angrily told me “I’m wizards employee (he work at one their game stores in the mall) and playing for over 3 years and your wrong”. I then proceed to references several pages in player’s hand book to my case. The guy was amazing quiet afterwards.
The rule in question that time was five-foot steps. The group was using a five-foot step each turn, even after double moving or moving and attacking. I was pointing out it doesn’t work that way.
I figured I bruised the guy ego and since he and the DM were best friends I didn’t get invited back. I ended up have move and later on will find my best gaming group till this day. When I brought up rules point my DM would sometimes just look at me and say ‘that’s nice but I’m going to do this way’ and I then when drop it.
Second time, the one just happen recently, the group was very hack and slash group almost no role-playing. I’ll admit I was getting bored with just killing things although there were some interesting encounters. The rule this time was size modifiers. Some players got the impression you added a size modifiers when attacking different size creature when you make you attack role. I tried to explain (it was late so might not done the best job) that size modifiers were already build in to the creature’s stats, so nothing extra was added to their roll. This even brought by another player several sessions before, although this was first time we got into a debate about them. It seem like the DM didn’t really know ether way or was assuming that get add a size bonus when you do attack.
I just starting get comfortable with the group so I accidentally let my argumentive side me slip. Again I was the newbie in a group a friends playing together, so most likely accidentally step on the some someone toes. And DM decided he go with his friend instead of trying to talk me first.
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Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 05/07/2006 12:53 PM |
| | When I was not DMing, and inidences like these came up, I made a note on my notepad, and then kept playing. then i talked to the DM (or player if it was a player gaffe) after wards. keeps the game going, and is a little less embarassing to the recipient. Unless it was my buddy Adam. I love ripping him a new one. But we're friends, so it's cool. He does it back. | |
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bigbadjon
Sergeant
546 Posts
| | 05/07/2006 1:11 PM |
| | One of the guidelines set down in the books is to not get bogged down in the rules. On the fly the GM should just make a judgement call and keep the game moving. Later he should look up the rule and know it for next time. The only rule that cannot be ignored is to make sure everyone has fun playing. | |
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Rising Dragon
Sneak
91 Posts
| | 05/07/2006 2:01 PM |
| | That was my obvious mistake, not waiting till after game session to bring up rule mistakes. I’m also more used to playing with good friends where that’s a lot more tolerated. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/07/2006 7:41 PM |
| I think a part of the skill of a good DM is handling rules lawyers.
I know often that the other players hate it when a long discussion about a +1 modifier disrupts play for ages. For anything over five minutes really. But I`ve seen DM's allow it to go on for over an hour.
Sometimes imo a DM just has to say, enough debate, this is how it is.
Not saying you are this type of Rules lawyer, but some will just badger badger and badger once they get a page in, until the DM gives in to thier wants rather than lock heads each time and waste gaming time.
I also think they should of told you earlier than via a last minute answering machine message and discussed it with you.
But games differ, and some enjoy playing rules debate and intricate/complex interaction than role playing.
I wouldn't call mentioning one rule, a rules lawyer either.. and not sure if you mean you only 'lawyer-ed up' those examples or whether it was a more constant thing.
I also see a difference between auguring about being right and discussing what the rules say to a situation. Sometimes you need to let it go even if you disagree if you want to play.
My bat, My ball so there ala cartman. And diplomancy should be a secondary skill of any lawyer.
Anyways, I hope you find a compatible group to play with :) And seems you learnt not to argue during the game time which most of us find precious time.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/07/2006 8:05 PM |
| I think a part of the skill of a good DM is handling rules lawyers.
I know often that the other players hate it when a long discussion about a +1 modifier disrupts play for ages. For anything over five minutes really. But I`ve seen DM's allow it to go on for over an hour.
Not saying you are this type of Rules lawyer, but some will just badger badger and badger once they get a page in, until the DM gives in to thier wants rather than lock heads each time and waste gaming time.
But games differ, and some enjoy playing rules debate and intricate/complex interaction than role playing.
I wouldn't call mentioning one rule, a rules lawyer either.. and not sure if you mean you only 'lawyer-ed up' those examples or whether it was a more constant thing.
I also see a difference between auguring about being right and discussing what the rules say to a situation. Sometimes you need to let it go even if you disagree if you want to play.
My bat, My ball so there ala cartman. And diplomancy should be a secondary skill of any lawyer.
Anyways, I hope you find a compatible group to play with :) And seems you learnt not to argue during the game time which most of us find precious time.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
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Jere_RB
Skirmisher
35 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 12:24 AM |
| | From what I'm seeing, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing except calling yourself a "rules lawyer". That particular name is usually reserved for someone who tries to bend and break the rules to gain an advantage in-game or provokes arguments in-game simply to provoke an argument. I've been accused of lawyering before and deal with people who are as well. All you are doing is knowing the game you are playing. There's nothing you can do if the other people you play with aren't quite at your level of knowlege of it and have no intention of doing anything about it. The only recourse is to either dumb down what you know so as to not cause friction or simply float around until you find a group that works with you. I'm still looking, myself. | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 05/08/2006 12:38 AM |
| I love knowing the rules. I know them better than most of my friends. I'm also the DM for three groups. This makes things much easier.
Quite seriously, being a rules lawyer isn't a problem. The problem comes when the behaviour disrupts an ongoing session, or disrupts the relationships between players. There's many groups that will happily debate rules because they enjoy doing so. If, however, they just want to get on with the game... don't.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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