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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
    
Australia
 | | 05/08/2006 1:17 AM |
| I've just written an article on playing the cleric for the newer players in my groups. I'd appreciate it if you could give it a look and post some suggestions on how to improve it.
http://merricb.multiply.com/journal/item/84
I'm not looking for min/max advice, but rather the strategies and particulars of playing successful clerics. (So, not "if you choose this, this and this, you are a better melee combatant than the fighter!")
The player that I'm particularly aiming this at is playing a half-elf Cleric 7/Radiant Servant of Pelor 2. (He was human, but died in the last combat and was reincarnated through the druid's last breath spell). His most staggeringly stupid mistake recently was to engage in combat with a monster, and cast a spell that only affected evil opponents... despite the paladin having already informed the group the monster wasn't evil.
Allowable sources are Player's Handbook, Complete Divine and Spell Compendium.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 1:41 AM |
| I find santuary and/or some way to become invisible very usefull for support minded clerics.
These protect the cleric from at least some attacks as he heals and buffs the party during the first few rounds.
Know opponent and know vulnerabilities may be a good choice to keep your cleric from repeating his fatal mistake. [:)] | | | |
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TYGRHobbes
Sneak
149 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 4:39 AM |
| For those healing clerics:
4th level spell Revenance does work with 5th level spell Revivify when you want to raise your companion past that 1 round limit. I verified it with Wizards that it is indeed legal. Both are from the Spell Compendium.
Another spell from that book to boost your cure spells is Healing Lorecall. In addition to healing, it removes some afflictions. Be sure to max out your Heal skill ranks as it lets you determine your bonus healing with your Heal skill ranks not your caster level. For example, a 3rd level cleric with 6 ranks in Heal can cure 1d8+5 points of damage with Cure Light Wounds when under the effect of Healing Lorecall.
Panacea is also a nice spell when you don't want to cast a full blown Heal on someone. Just make sure the particular affliction is affected with Panacea as it's not as powerful as Heal. | |
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Frederyck
Sneak
133 Posts
Uppsala, Sweden
| | 05/08/2006 4:50 AM |
| "Useful 5th level spells
mass cure light wounds - heals 1d8+caster level (max 25) to all allies near you. Just too useful."
Don't forget that the mass cure spells can double as attack spells when meeting undead. It is not only your allies that get the "benefit" from them, you get to choose which creatures to affect, so you can basically cast a spell that heals your buddies and hurt the baddies in the same round. It is especially effective when you meet undead that are a tad too powerful for a turning attempt to be really efficient. | |
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TYGRHobbes
Sneak
149 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 5:20 AM |
| Oh, I almost forgot...
Don't forget your metamagic and craft feats. Brew potion and craft wand are very handy for clerics when it comes to buffs and healing. I wouldn't get into the offensive metamagic feats unless you're going to do a lot of blasting. Stuff like still, silent, and extend spell are great for buffs and those times when you're grappled or gagged . Another nice feat is Reach spell, when you want to reach out and touch someone when you just can't quite get to them in battle.
For the buffing clerics, there are quite a few spells in the Spell Compendium that will increase your personal and party AC and Saving Throws quite a bit. And the good thing about them is that they all stack (different modifier types). Too many to list this late at night zzzzzzzzzzzzz [|)]
Ok I lied, here are some but you can look em up and see what they do [:)]:
Hand of Divinity, Conviction, Nightshield, Armor of Darkness, Recitation, Greater Resistance, Superior Resistance, Ghost Touch Armor, Life's Grace
Note: I didn't include PHB spells; a few of these are for the evil types; some of these last a long time and some are for combat only
And a few bones for those nuking and fighting clerics....
Darkbolt, Ice Axe, and Sound Lance
Some of this info is a bit min/max sorry. This is just the stuff I'd load up on and just stay out of the way of monsters but close enough to my party members that I can still help them. Personally, I wouldn't load up on too much offense and only get into battle to help out with flanks, cleanup, and such but still have a good escape route. Never set yourself up to be cornered or surrounded!
G'night all! | |
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Arandae
Sergeant
699 Posts
UK
| | 05/08/2006 7:07 AM |
| | If a player is likely to make some mistakes when playing a cleric, how about persuading them to take 'Luck' as one of their domains? At least that way they'll get the occasional second dice roll when trying to achieve the unlikely [)]. | |
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| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/08/2006 7:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Arandae
If a player is likely to make some mistakes when playing a cleric, how about persuading them to take 'Luck' as one of their domains? At least that way they'll get the occasional second dice roll when trying to achieve the unlikely [)].
Alas, mere dice rolling isn't enough to make up for bad decisions. [:)]
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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| 
B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 9:12 AM |
| | Up until recently I was playing a cleric, and I have to say that the best spells I used were mass spells. My game's MVP was definately mass resist energy. Being able to give resist 10,20, or 30 to all characters was a huge boon for all of us. A close second was mass shield of faith. The fighters in the party loved getting a +3 deflection bonus to their AC. The best part of this is the fact that these are only 3rd and 4th level spells, so I could have multiple castings prepared if we were expecting a few battles. Seriously, if you can use a mass spell instead of a normal version I definately recommend it. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 9:17 AM |
| Resurgence is a great spell that has saved the bacon of two parties in our various campaigns. Don't leave the cloister without it. [:D]
Summoning spells are also an underestimated power of the cleric. Celestial bison, baby!
And I concur about Brew Potion, Scribe Scroll, and Craft Wand. More spellcasting versatility is always good.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4134 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 11:16 AM |
| Very nice article Merric! Great for beginning players.
Clerics are certainly not my specialty, so I can't offer much advice. I would recomend a short section on useful domains to pick up with a sentence or two about the benefits of each. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3462 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 2:17 PM |
| Well you could also mention that as a support character, they can be fairly effective as a ranged attacker. Unlike the old classic Cleric which could only use blunt weapons, more "modern" clerics/priests are not as tightly restricted in weapon usage. For example, I am playing a priest of Artemis and use a bow weapon with full effect. Taking rapid shot has resulted in me being one of the more effective damaging dealing characters at low levels, while being able to hold myself out of melee so I can heal others as required.
Magic Stone is a very effective anti-undead attack at low levels due to the double damage it deals. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/08/2006 4:43 PM |
| | The key to a cleric is know your role and stick to it. If your going to be support, be support. If your going to be a buff and kill, be buff and kill. Your not going to have enough spells for everything. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3462 Posts
| | 05/09/2006 1:45 PM |
| Also you should bring up that damage prevention is more important than damage correction (healing) since some forms of damage transcend simple hit point (lost stats, lost actions, lost opportunities, etc). So if the character has a choice to buff offense or defense the prudent choice is often defense even if it does not seem as sexy or rewarding. The fighters types always want to see there offense pumped up to max, and ignore defense. Part of that is that the player controls the offensive die rolls and gets to feel and see the results of a good hit, while it is the DM that contests against a higher AC and the benefit of a buffed AC is that nothing happens. The enemy misses. Not as satisfying to player, but perhaps more important for the party to survive.
This is what makes spells like Prayer so effective, it helps your offense and effectively raises the AC of all characters. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
8879 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/10/2006 1:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
quote:
Originally posted by Arandae
If a player is likely to make some mistakes when playing a cleric, how about persuading them to take 'Luck' as one of their domains? At least that way they'll get the occasional second dice roll when trying to achieve the unlikely [)].
Alas, mere dice rolling isn't enough to make up for bad decisions. [:)]
Cheers!
You sound like a dangerous DM Merric. Do you really punish bad mistakes, and just let the chips fall where they may, or do you give hints/clues as to the best course of action and tone it down if they choose poorly? | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/10/2006 1:20 AM |
| I have a high kill-count. If a player plays badly, then they're likely to have their character killed. (There have been two TPKs in my games in the past 6 years, both due to utter stupidity from the players).
I do try not to kill characters outright, but if it happens, then I'm not going to shy away from it.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 1:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Also you should bring up that damage prevention is more important than damage correction (healing) since some forms of damage transcend simple hit point (lost stats, lost actions, lost opportunities, etc). So if the character has a choice to buff offense or defense the prudent choice is often defense even if it does not seem as sexy or rewarding. The fighters types always want to see there offense pumped up to max, and ignore defense. Part of that is that the player controls the offensive die rolls and gets to feel and see the results of a good hit, while it is the DM that contests against a higher AC and the benefit of a buffed AC is that nothing happens. The enemy misses. Not as satisfying to player, but perhaps more important for the party to survive.
This is what makes spells like Prayer so effective, it helps your offense and effectively raises the AC of all characters.
Great point. There is a great new line of cleric spells in the PHB2. They heal less pts (the 3rd level one for example heals 3d4+1 2/cl max of 6. But grants DR 3/evil for a minute and all undead creature take 3pts of damage from any weapon that overcomes the damage reduction. | |
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Mrfurious
Warrior
344 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 4:59 PM |
| As for the spells you have recomended
Orisons
Guidance is a nifty spell for casting on the rogue before he tries to find/disable a trap.
1st
Prot evil is good at low/mid levels to help the fighter (most likely target) get out of domination, charm, etc.
2nd
Divine Insight is a great spell, long duration, LARGE bonus to a skill roll. Great when you NEED to make that concentration check, or diplomacy check, or anything that you arent necessarily trained for.
4th
Recitation- +2 luck bonus to AC/Saves/ToHit, solid spell
As for the feats, Augment healing is such a no brainer that it is likely unbalanced. As for combat casting, you may want to seriously consider Skill focus Concentration. As its bonus is only one lower, but it helps for when you take continuous damage (Melf's, heat metal) or when you take damage from a readied action. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
8879 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/10/2006 11:56 PM |
| | Merric, is it fair to assume then, that you don't mind if a player plays with character preservation in mind? This questions arises from a campaign we played in about three years ago. Our DM would sometimes give us encounters with very high challenge ratings - so high that our best front line fighter would often run away. This would upset the rest of us players (for obvious reasons) who were trying to be heroes. Moreover, one could tell that the DM wasn't happy with the gifted fighter's cowardice (he felt that we could eke out a victory if all party members took part in the conflict), but he felt hand-cuffed in coming up with a solution that wouldn't make it look like he was picking on that particular player. The player would justify his action by saying that "I will be the first to go down for sure, and I'm just trying to stay alive." Any suggestions on how to handle this type of situation? | |
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| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 05/11/2006 3:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
Merric, is it fair to assume then, that you don't mind if a player plays with character preservation in mind?
Not at all. Indeed, I encourage it.
quote:
This questions arises from a campaign we played in about three years ago. Our DM would sometimes give us encounters with very high challenge ratings - so high that our best front line fighter would often run away. This would upset the rest of us players (for obvious reasons) who were trying to be heroes. Moreover, one could tell that the DM wasn't happy with the gifted fighter's cowardice (he felt that we could eke out a victory if all party members took part in the conflict), but he felt hand-cuffed in coming up with a solution that wouldn't make it look like he was picking on that particular player. The player would justify his action by saying that "I will be the first to go down for sure, and I'm just trying to stay alive." Any suggestions on how to handle this type of situation?
Forcing PCs into overwhelming encounters isn't good. The players need to feel that, if they die, their deaths were due to bad decisions on their part, not a DM gunning for them. Conversely, if the players succeed at an overwhelming encounter, knowing that it was their good choices that got them through it really makes the game great for them.
Having overwhelming encounters the PCs must overcome is good - as long as they have a chance to back off and rethink their tactics.
When I last played D&D, I was basically in the same position of your "cowardly" fighter. I was a cleric of Pelor who would run when the going got really dangerous. The rest of the party quickly learnt to pay attention to my instincts; that way, they would survive. We would then be able to return and take on the monsters from a position of well-informed strength.
When escape was not an option - as was the case on a few occasions - I would stand and fight. However, I take pride that I advanced from 1st to 14th level in that game without once dying. Some players went through 8 PCs!
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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kuyadz
Skirmisher
33 Posts
| | 05/25/2006 11:01 PM |
| | what about stats for a battle priest | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 05/26/2006 12:41 AM |
| | Though you said "fighting-type" clerics weren't really your cup of tea, it's hard to deny that an "on-demand" fighter isn't nice. Quicken spell is really, really useful for any type of cleric, but some of the lower level self buffs really shine when quickened. Divine favor is stellar for a fifth level spell, as I see it, and with the strength domain, quickened enlarge person is great too. My 13th level cleric is getting alot of use out of "close wounds" as well, a 2nd level spell that heals 1d4 +5 hp as an immediate action, you'd be surprised how useful that bugger is. Another good spell to throw on yourself or the beater of the group is "fell the greatest foe," it can get real nasty against bigger critters. Extend spell also works great at higher levels, as 10min/level spells can last 4 hours, which is great when you're pretty sure bad stuff is going to happen sometime soon. Another often overlooked spell is Hero's feast. It's hard to justify spells vs. harm or heal, but hero's feast gives +1 attack, +1 will saves, immunity to fear and poison and 1d8 +1/2 caster level temporary hp to all your buddies, and the bugger lasts 12 hours. | |
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Anthraxus
Warrior
212 Posts
| | 05/26/2006 1:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
domain, quickened enlarge person is great too. My 13th level cleric is getting alot of use out of "close wounds" as well, a 2nd level spell that heals 1d4 +5 hp as an immediate action, you'd be surprised how useful that bugger is. Another good spell to throw on yourself or the beater of the group is "fell the greatest foe," it can get real nasty
We get a lot of use out of Delay Death. "Keep the cleric alive, so he can keep us alive!" [:D]
And yeah, Heroes Feast- don't leave home without it. It's almost too good... I'm still waiting for them to hit it with the Nerf bats.
What book is Fell the Greatest Foe from? | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4134 Posts
| | 06/05/2006 1:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Anthraxus
What book is Fell the Greatest Foe from?
I know it's in the Draconomicon and I suspect it's in the Spell Compendium as well. | |
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TheBlackFlail
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 06/05/2006 4:46 AM |
| | Don't forget the basic ability buffs (Bull's Str, et al...), especially for offense, raising the DCs of offensive spellcasters by +2 can be a big help. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is also a great fifth level buff, the extra attacks and +3 attack and damage to the whole party (in 30ft). | |
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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
Sydney, Australia
| | 06/18/2006 8:28 PM |
| Not sure what level of undead are encountered in your games, but quickened turning is great for doing your turns and still being able to cast a spell or fight.
Makes clerics far more effective when undead are encountered.
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/19/2006 12:26 AM |
| | One thing that has become easier with those books you mentioned is for the cleric to become more efficient wih his healing. A few suggestions have been brought, but I've found that when I play a cleric if I don't have to spend as many spells healing PCs I become less annoyed because I'm no longer reulated to a "first aid kit". So, your player should look at the vigor spells and mass versions of them. I think mass lesser vigor would free up a lot of spell slots but have the disadvantage of being a post-combat spell. | |
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