Username
Warlord
5692 Posts
    
 | | 05/10/2006 12:06 PM |
| | In rpg, what is the categorical differences between the titles? | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 12:08 PM |
| Demon = CE
Daemon = NE
Devil = LE
Noone uses daemon anymore though. (Thankfully.) | |
I am not gone. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 05/10/2006 12:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Noone uses daemon anymore though. (Thankfully.)
Yeah, it's sooooooo much worse than loth. [eyes] [)] | |
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I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 05/10/2006 12:18 PM |
| Demons are Chaotic Evil and come from the Abyss.
Devils are Lawful Evil and come from the Nine Hells.
Demons and Devils have been at war with each other since the dawn of time. This conflict is known as the Blood War.
Daemons (now known as Yugoloths) are Neutral Evil. It is assumed that they originated from The Grey Waste of Hades..but they now primarity live in Ghenna.
The Yugoloths are mercenaries and hire themselves out to either side of the Blood War.
Some sages believe that Yugoloths secretly are pulling all the strings in the lower planes. | |
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Username
Warlord
5692 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 12:38 PM |
| | So what's the reason behind the blood war? | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 12:41 PM |
| In addition to what's already been said, the Archdevils took a (forced) sabbatical during 2nd edition, and rank-and-file Devils had to pretend to be Baatezu. Ditto for Demon Lords, Demons, and Tanar-ri.
There's also another group of (NE, I believe) outsiders, known as Demodands and native to Carceri. I don't think they play much of a role in the Blood War, but we saw a fair amount of them in Shackled City.
Cheers,
Dagonet
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 12:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Yeah, it's sooooooo much worse than loth. [eyes] [)]
It is. But I am also one of those people who prefers the terms "baatezu" and "tanar'ri" so what do I know? | |
I am not gone. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/10/2006 12:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
So what's the reason behind the blood war?
I've always heard the Bloodwar described as 'eternal', I think the official cause of the War is 'lost to time'. | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 12:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
quote:
Originally posted by Username
So what's the reason behind the blood war?
I've always heard the Bloodwar described as 'eternal', I think the official cause of the War is 'lost to time'.
Actually. . . Some of my 2nd Edition stuff describes Asmodeus as a primordial Power of (evil) Law, one of two extremely powerful beings who together formed the Great-Wheel setup before any of the current pantheons came into existence. During or shortly after this, he quarreled with his good-aligned counterpart, and a great deal of his power dispersed into the multiverse while he came to rest in the deepest pit of Hell. The Blood War is actually an elaborate front, desgined to keep *everyone* else distracted while Asmodeus regains the power he lost (by devouring the souls of beings who die with no faith in any deity whatsoever, but that's a side-issue).
I don't have the Book of Vile Darkness (so I don't know what it says about Asmodeus there), but the interesting thing is that the whole idea of the Serpent's Coil and Asmodeus' true body matches up almost perfectly with things that were said about him back in 2nd Edition.
Cheers,
Dagonet | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/10/2006 1:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dagonet
quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
quote:
Originally posted by Username
So what's the reason behind the blood war?
I've always heard the Bloodwar described as 'eternal', I think the official cause of the War is 'lost to time'.
Actually. . . Some of my 2nd Edition stuff describes Asmodeus as a primordial Power of (evil) Law, one of two extremely powerful beings who together formed the Great-Wheel setup before any of the current pantheons came into existence. During or shortly after this, he quarreled with his good-aligned counterpart, and a great deal of his power dispersed into the multiverse while he came to rest in the deepest pit of Hell. The Blood War is actually an elaborate front, desgined to keep *everyone* else distracted while Asmodeus regains the power he lost (by devouring the souls of beings who die with no faith in any deity whatsoever, but that's a side-issue).
I don't have the Book of Vile Darkness (so I don't know what it says about Asmodeus there), but the interesting thing is that the whole idea of the Serpent's Coil and Asmodeus' true body matches up almost perfectly with things that were said about him back in 2nd Edition.
Cheers,
Dagonet
What sources are you referencing? | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 1:33 PM |
| | His source is Chris Pramas' A Guide To Hell. I am also partial to the theory presented therein, although many Planescape fans tend to ignore it. Particularly ones who like the notion of Yugoloths pulling all the strings (yeah, right). | |
Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
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Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 05/10/2006 1:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Yeah, it's sooooooo much worse than loth. [eyes] [)]
It is. But I am also one of those people who prefers the terms "baatezu" and "tanar'ri" so what do I know?
Well, I agree they have a bit more flair and panache, but given that TSR changed the name to remove the stigma of devil and demon, I always thought it was total bullsh*t.
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I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 1:53 PM |
| Yeah, but in this case I am more of a glass is half full sort of guy. They may have changed it to appease religious conservatives, but they took a crappy situation and turned it into something I think is pretty damn cool.
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I am not gone. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 2:35 PM |
| | I'm guessing the book coming out on demons next month will have information about the blood war. I can't wait for that book. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 4:34 PM |
| | Demodands are CE. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/10/2006 4:41 PM |
| | Bah! Just discourage your PCs from taking too many ranks of knowledge: planes or knowledge: religion. Then, you can ignore all these details... | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/10/2006 7:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
So what's the reason behind the blood war?
Power. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 10:01 PM |
| | And when are we going to get a Yugoloth mini? If we start getting them in Blood War, it could take a while to get a decent number of them. Luckily, in the RPG anyways, the baatezu and tanar'ri are much more popular as opponents. Who wants to say that they defeated a troupe of fiendish mercenaries? | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 10:51 PM |
| | I thought a daemon was a high rank Ferengi [:p] | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12481 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/10/2006 11:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
I thought a daemon was a high rank Ferengi [:p]
Big-eared dudes in Star Trek? | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
I thought a daemon was a high rank Ferengi [:p]
Big-eared dudes in Star Trek?
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 05/11/2006 11:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
It is. But I am also one of those people who prefers the terms "baatezu" and "tanar'ri" so what do I know?
Actually, my understanding is that baatezu are one type of devils and tanar'ri are one type of demons.
If you guys want to read very interesting 3rd Edition material on devils and demons, i had a lot of fun with "Legions of Hell" (Book of Fiends, Volume One) by Chris Pramas and "Armies of the Abyss" (Book of Fiends, Volume Two) by Erik Mona. Both provide some measure of background description on the races and a little history about the nine hells and the abyss, without however delving too deeply into it. They're both primarily monster manuals filled with devils and demons. I personally liked those two, especially Legions of Hell which is a notch over the Armies of the Abyss (although the latter is still good).
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 05/12/2006 12:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
So what's the reason behind the blood war?
Why not? [:P]
Apparently evil outsiders have nothing better to do with their time? | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 2:38 AM |
| | Weapons of Legacy (not exactly a classic source) actually pulls back the curtain on the beginning of the Blood War. A Pit Fiend called Xuetari engineered the conflict through assassinations of key Baatezu and Tanari leaders (including his own father), purely to relieve his own ennui and boredom. The murder weapon he used became the Legacy item Fiendkiller's Flail. | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:41 AM |
| | Considering that pit fiends are either created directly by Asmodeus or made from gelugons after being tortured in the Pit of Flame, I'd say that story is... unlikely. No such thing as a pit fiend "father." | |
Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 4:55 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Yeah, it's sooooooo much worse than loth. [eyes] [)]
It is. But I am also one of those people who prefers the terms "baatezu" and "tanar'ri" so what do I know?
I can't stand the retcon names personally, but I have much less of a problem with 'yugoloth' than the other two; the problem with 'daemon' is it is pronounced just like 'demon'.
I need to get around to coming up with a better term sometime... | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 6:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I can't stand the retcon names personally, but I have much less of a problem with 'yugoloth' than the other two; the problem with 'daemon' is it is pronounced just like 'demon'.
Chalk me up in the "hate the retcon names" column. If I hadn't already quit D&D by that point in Second Edition, that change would have done it.
The original form of "daemon" is "daimon," which is Greek. It's actually pronounced with the long I, "di'mun," if that helps. It maintains the etymological (and alliterative) connection between the three groups of fiends, at least. | |
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 05/12/2006 7:21 AM |
| | That was yet another reason why I skipped 2nd. They are Devils and Demons darnit!@!!![}:)] | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 05/12/2006 7:39 AM |
| How do you pronounce Baatezu anyway?
Bay-aht-zoo?
Bah-tay-zoo?
Bate-zoo? | |
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Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3463 Posts
Netherlands
| | 05/12/2006 8:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
How do you pronounce Baatezu anyway?
Bay-aht-zoo?
Bah-tay-zoo?
Bate-zoo?
Bah-ah-te-zoo I'd guess.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/12/2006 7:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
How do you pronounce Baatezu anyway?
Bay-aht-zoo?
Bah-tay-zoo?
Bate-zoo?
Bah-Tay-Zoo. Or Deh-vul.
I pronounce Tanar'ri as:
Tan-Our-Ree. Or De-mon.
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 10:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
How do you pronounce Baatezu anyway?
Bay-aht-zoo?
Bah-tay-zoo?
Bate-zoo?
It's a four-syllable word. With the double-a combination, both a's are pronounced. Since I think they were going for an ancient Middle Eastern feel for their nonsense word, I'd pronounce it with a brief stop inbetween the two a's, so you don't sound like a sheep.
Ba-(silence)-AH-tay-zoo. One could also say Bay-AH-tay-zoo.
They seem to be doing a take-off on the ancient deity name "Ba'al," which simply means, "Lord." Or they were drunk. Either way.
I'd also say Tah-nah-REE, with a slight trill to the r.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 11:22 PM |
| I always thought Ba'al was single-syllable, pronounced like the big chunk of hay. Kyrin, is the sheep pronunciation (of the ancient Aramaic deity) official?
And add Deva to the list of big-D spirits--wasn't it also originally a term for demon?
Cheers,
Dagonet | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/13/2006 2:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dagonet
I always thought Ba'al was single-syllable, pronounced like the big chunk of hay. Kyrin, is the sheep pronunciation (of the ancient Aramaic deity) official?
According to my Old Testament History professor oh so many years ago.
After all, Baalzebub (Ba'al-tze-bub, a derogatory name the Hebrews used for Canaanite gods, meaning "Lord of Flies," as in what flies swarm around) is not pronounced BALE-zee-bub, but rather as a four-syllable name, yes?
That class taught me quite a bit about everything I'd been pronouncing incorrectly.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 05/13/2006 2:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
According to my Old Testament History professor oh so many years ago.
After all, Baalzebub (Ba'al-tze-bub, a derogatory name the Hebrews used for Canaanite gods, meaning "Lord of Flies," as in what flies swarm around) is not pronounced BALE-zee-bub, but rather as a four-syllable name, yes?
I don't know how they pronounced it in ancient Hebrew, but in modern Hebrew "Baalzebub" still have the same meaning. It's two words. Baal, pronounced ba'al (the stress is in the second syllable, which does not sound like "a" but deeper, similar sound from the throat) and afterwards Zvoov (one syllable, but the Z is a bit longer than usual constants). Baal means have/own (both the verb and the adjective, depending on unheard symbols in the font) and Zvoov means fly.
There are many famous demons and devils that still have meaningful names in Hebrew. It's actually very funny. One of the Hebrew words for wealth/fortune is Mamon, an ancient god of wealth. Moloch is simply a variant of Melech, which means king/lord. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7908 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 05/13/2006 9:30 PM |
| My personal pronunciations (with no specific root, just way too many language classes in college)
Bay-eh-teh-zoo
Tuh-nar-ree (spoken rather quickly)
I also specifically pronounce daemon differently, just to differentiate it during conversation
day-eh-mon | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/13/2006 10:46 PM |
| Thanks, madda! Nice to hear the modern pronunciation! Does the name come up that often in modern Hebrew? [:D]
JIM
aka kryin | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
quote:
Originally posted by dagonet
I always thought Ba'al was single-syllable, pronounced like the big chunk of hay. Kyrin, is the sheep pronunciation (of the ancient Aramaic deity) official?
According to my Old Testament History professor oh so many years ago.
After all, Baalzebub (Ba'al-tze-bub, a derogatory name the Hebrews used for Canaanite gods, meaning "Lord of Flies," as in what flies swarm around) is not pronounced BALE-zee-bub, but rather as a four-syllable name, yes?
I had no idea, that's why I asked. Thanks for clearing that up. [:D] | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 3:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Thanks, madda! Nice to hear the modern pronunciation! Does the name come up that often in modern Hebrew? [:D]
Both words are very frequent. They're not archaic at all but in very common use. The combination is not heard at all.
The demon Azazel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel) on the other hand is very popular in modern Hebrew, and usually appears in the phrase "Go to Azazel" meaning get lost. (The suffix "el", BTW, is simply a god in Hebrew). | |
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