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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
    
 | | 05/15/2006 3:25 PM |
| Well, I've finally had a chance to sit down and sift through most of it, and I'm really quite impressed. A few more detailed thoughts.
New Classes
The 4 new base classes are mostly excellent, with the beguiler and duskblade coming in at the top of the pack. They both fill niches in the base class range that were not adequately filled, I think, and both look like a blast to play. Note that some of the spells on their lists come from the Spell Compendium and are not reprinted in this book.
I'm *slightly* less impressed with the knight class, mostly because I don't like the 'taunt' it gets with one of the higher level uses of knight's challenge. It is likely that if I add this class to one of my games, I will modify this ability in some way, either to only work on genuine battlefields, or to only work on targets that are also participants in the same sort of chivalric culture as the knight (so, other knights, etc.) Otherwise, again it looks like a fun class to play with a lot of choices.
The dragon shaman is the least interesting of the new classes to me, and will probably be consigned to the 'specialty campaign' pile; the flavor isn't really right for any of my games, but I imagine proudft will want to use it for his lizard game.
Expanded Classes
I was surprised (and pleased) to find that this chapter also developed some of the new base classes from the Complete... series and the Miniatures Handbook (alas, no mention of the archivist or dread necromancer from Heroes of Horror.)
There is a lot of material in this section (and sprinkled throughout the book, really) that is not going to be terribly useful to experienced players, on how to pick a background for a particular class, roleplaying tips, etc. It could be useful, though, for designing NPCs quickly. (There is also a nice section later with an updated, much better gear progression for NPCs than the old DMG lists, by the way.)
The best parts of this chapter are the alternate class features (sort of like a meta-substitution level really.) They're not universally better than the original in most cases, and in the cases where they are pretty much universally better (replacing the hexblade's familiar with the phantom save-lowering thing for example), they tend to shore up classes that were a little on the weak side to start with.
Non-standard classes that are covered (I probably will miss a couple as I'm doing this from memory) are the marshal, hexblade, scout, swashbuckler, warlock, warmage, and favored soul. There's no mention of the Asian classes, spellthief, healer, or spirit shaman. (I think the healer is ripe for a redesign in the vein of the dread necromancer or beguiler anyway, as it is a very weak class as written. Maybe I'll post a take on that later.)
There are also 3 alternate starting packages for every class, which is a nice touch, since it gives you some quick alternate equipment configurations for starting characters (I don't know anyone who uses the feat/skill part of the starting packages, really.)
New Feats
These are generally pretty good. There seems to have been an extra bit of effort to provide more interesting feats for high level fighters to take, as there are a lot of feats here with +12 or higher BAB and extensive feat pre-req requirements. There are too many to list here, but my general impression is that these are pretty good and will be seeing a lot of play. There are also a lot of new divine feats, some less exciting metamagic feats, etc. Too many to discuss in detail.
New Spells
These are generally very nice too. This is one section of the book I haven't gone all the way through in detail yet - but I love the spell that causes the target to save or die, and if he fails, blows him up in a big fireball. Awesome.
Character Rebuilding
After (admittedly only briefly) reviewing this section, it seems to me a character's best option is still to find a psion and pay a bunch of XP if he needs a major revision, since the options presented here are very incremental, letting you basically make only one change per level for the most part. Still, for games that don't like psions or the psychic reformation power, these provide a more palatable way to let characters correct their old mistakes (I know brew potion still haunts my enchanter...)
Anyway, I'll give this a strong buy rating. Even with all the space that is (to me) wasted on role-playing tips, etc. (if I haven't learned in the last 23 years I'm not going to learn from this) there is still a *ton* of great rules stuff in this book. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/15/2006 6:51 PM |
| I agree for the most part.
The only thing I'll add is with regards to the concept of rebuilding characters. This is an outstanding addition to the game because it allows PCs to choose feats, languages, etc... that become outdated without fear that they'll be burdened by those feats for their entire existence. Toughness is a good choice for a 1st level mage, as it can be replaced by improved toughness down the road.
This type of versatility was a huge benefit when it was added to sorcerers and bards. Giving it to all classes is a great idea.
Oh, and I like the Knight and Dragon Shaman more than Ian does... I think they are fine contributions to the game. I'll make great use of the dragon shamans in future campaigns to make it easier to implement shamans for monster clans. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 7:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I agree for the most part.
The only thing I'll add is with regards to the concept of rebuilding characters. This is an outstanding addition to the game because it allows PCs to choose feats, languages, etc... that become outdated without fear that they'll be burdened by those feats for their entire existence. Toughness is a good choice for a 1st level mage, as it can be replaced by improved toughness down the road.
This type of versatility was a huge benefit when it was added to sorcerers and bards. Giving it to all classes is a great idea.
Sort of - you're actually replacing toughness with some other feat and taking improved toughness in a higher level slot, since you still have to take something you met the prereqs for at the time you took the original feat. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/15/2006 7:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
...Sort of - you're actually replacing toughness with some other feat and taking improved toughness in a higher level slot, since you still have to take something you met the prereqs for at the time you took the original feat.
I need to double check a few things on the rebuilding. When you replace something, I'm not sure if you have to be able to qualify for the replacement:
a.) At the time you originally took the thing you are replacing, or
b.) Currently.
Version a.) would require a lot of record keeping. Version b.) is simpler. Accordingly, my guess is that it is written to work as version b.
With regards to a wizard with toughness that is attaining 6th level and decides to replace toughness with improved toughness, he could not do so under version a.), but could under version b.). Regardless, he could effectively do it by choosing improved toughness as his 6th level feat and then choosing another feat to replace his initial 1st level feat of toughness. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 7:58 PM |
| | It's "A", specifically stated multiple times in the chapter. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 7:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
...Sort of - you're actually replacing toughness with some other feat and taking improved toughness in a higher level slot, since you still have to take something you met the prereqs for at the time you took the original feat.
I need to double check a few things on the rebuilding. When you replace something, I'm not sure if you have to be able to qualify for the replacement:
a.) At the time you originally took the thing you are replacing, or
b.) Currently.
Version a.) would require a lot of record keeping. Version b.) is simpler. Accordingly, my guess is that it is written to work as version b.
With regards to a wizard with toughness that is attaining 6th level and decides to replace toughness with improved toughness, he could not do so under version a.), but could under version b.). Regardless, he could effectively do it by choosing improved toughness as his 6th level feat and then choosing another feat to replace his initial 1st level feat of toughness.
I believe it is both A and B, I'm pretty sure I saw words to the effect of 'be able to demonstrate you qualified for the new feat at the time you took the original one' or something similar.
It shouldn't require a lot of recordkeeping for feats, though, except for the few that have skill ranks as prerequisites. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/16/2006 3:43 AM |
| Yep. Its both.
That is kind of a non-issue as long as the player keeps a few low tier feats for his character.
Heh. I guess it is a god thing that I keep a copy of my PC for each session we've played. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:59 AM |
| I find it funny you three are engaged in a conversation on these boards that you could just as easily have in person or over email, since you're all from the same circle in real life. Of course, as soon as someone outside of our area or play group responds, it's no longer a personal conversation posted on a public message board. I don't qualify. So until then, um...why are we having this discussion on maxminis? [)]
Seriously though, I like the Duskblade and Knight a lot. The Knight is most useful for letting a player portray a chivalrous character but without having to get saddled with the "high magic" abilities of the paladin (i.e. special mount and spells). For a low magic world like Krynn, it works well for simulating knights of solamnia (note I haven't shelled out money for the Dragonlance 3.5 books and my DL campaign is during the War of the Lance).
I do like the Duskblade a lot, but I still find a multiclassing ftr/wiz with Eldritch Knight levels better in some instances, and more specifically for when you want to be able to cast higher level spells and are willing to give up 2-3 BAB.
The Dragon Shaman is really weak IMO. And I do wish the OA-type classes (regular shaman, sohei, samurai, ninja, and wu jen) were done up in the PHB II. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 12:17 PM |
| My son really wants to play a sorcerer/dragon shaman. I have been unsuccessful so far in dissuading him.
We've only roleplayed 4 times, so he just thinks the dragon thing is really cool, but the dragon shaman looks really, really weak to me.
I wish I had more access to some of the non-core books (I stopped buying RPG books a couple of years ago as I wasn't playing), as I'm sure I could find an interesting PrC for him. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/16/2006 1:39 PM |
| | I'm holding off judgement on the overall effectiveness of the Dragon Shaman as a PC class until I've seen it in operation. However, I am absolutely sure that it will be outstanding as a great NPC class for monstrous humanoids. Generating a quality shaman/cleric/druid for a monster community is time consuming, especially at higher level. Adding all the recent spell options just made it mroe difficult. The Dragon Shaman allows for very quick building. It is useful enough that I've already begun to revise my campaign that is in the drafting mode to increase the presence of dragons and draconic concepts. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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DinoBen
Sergeant
407 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 05/16/2006 2:02 PM |
| How is it they "tweak" the Marshal? I play a PC with 4 levels of that class and I am curious what changes they might have suggested.
How does the first few levels of Knight differ from Paladin or Fighter? | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 2:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DinoBen
How is it they "tweak" the Marshal? I play a PC with 4 levels of that class and I am curious what changes they might have suggested.
How does the first few levels of Knight differ from Paladin or Fighter?
Marshal gets an "adrenaline boost" feature that substitutes for his Grant Move Action. The boost is great for later combat (where GMA would be fatal or unnecessary) since it grants temporary HP to those in the Marshal's aura. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 2:40 PM |
| The marshall gets some roleplaying notes, 3 alternate starting packages, and an alternate class feature that it could use to replace grant move action. If only I could remember what that was without the book in front of me...
EDIT: Ah, Kiddoc to the rescue.
As for the knight, you can check it out in the PHB II excerpt on the WotC site. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:11 PM |
| First pure role playing book I've bought in a long time - I highly recommend it.
My min/maxing 10 year old found the arcane thesis feat and applied it to his magic missle spell. That makes a first level sorcerer a damage dealing machine - I need to figure out how to have high hp monsters without killing the group. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/16/2006 5:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
First pure role playing book I've bought in a long time - I highly recommend it.
My min/maxing 10 year old found the arcane thesis feat and applied it to his magic missle spell. That makes a first level sorcerer a damage dealing machine - I need to figure out how to have high hp monsters without killing the group.
I don't think you really need to adjust. 5 or 6 spells dealing 7 damage each isn't going to upset the game too much. He did use a feat to gain the extra damage for the spell... so his character i weaker in other ways. | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
407 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 05/18/2006 1:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
quote:
Originally posted by DinoBen
How is it they "tweak" the Marshal? I play a PC with 4 levels of that class and I am curious what changes they might have suggested.
Marshal gets an "adrenaline boost" feature that substitutes for his Grant Move Action. The boost is great for later combat (where GMA would be fatal or unnecessary) since it grants temporary HP to those in the Marshal's aura.
Thanks Kiddoc! I've had a chance to look at the "Adrenaline Boost" ability and it's too bad that you have to choose either the Boost OR the GMA. It's also too bad the Boost only gives xtra HP equal to the Marshal Class level (or double if they're less than half), making the Boost less useful for multiclass Marshals.
As far as late combat GMAs being unnecessary or fatal, I agree that GMA is used mostly to set up in ideal positions at the beginning of the combat - charges, flanks, etc. However, I have an interesting alternative: Tactical Retreat. This works very well with the Marshal Aura that grants all allies within range a bonus to AC vs. AoOs equal to the Marshal's Charisma Modifier - +4 in my character's case (yay cloak of charisma!), granting the PCs the equivalent of Mobility. This of course can be nicely followed up by any number of area effect spells ΖD] | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:12 PM |
| I really liked the alternate class features part ... I definitely would've taken the ranger one in a heartbeat (dump the animal companion, whatever you hit counts as being flanked for your party members until the enemy gets hit or your next turn).
I also like the character rebuilding, simply because I have occassionally picked feats that looked good on paper but I ended up not using much, and being able to fiddle a bit without having to find a psion to bully into reprogramming my brain would be nice. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 4:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
First pure role playing book I've bought in a long time - I highly recommend it.
My min/maxing 10 year old found the arcane thesis feat and applied it to his magic missle spell. That makes a first level sorcerer a damage dealing machine - I need to figure out how to have high hp monsters without killing the group.
Also, you should check out the prerequisites to Arcane Thesis. Unless he's more than just a 1st level sorcerer, he's got about 5 more ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to go before he can take the feat. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 8:53 PM |
| | really, dang, I missed that part. | |
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Champion of Juiblex | |
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