| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
    
 | | 05/15/2006 6:11 PM |
| The PC's I've been DMing for lately are a very proficient group and have designed their PC's so efficiently that they constantly surprise me when I create an encounter for them that would seem to be at a balanced CR rating.
The average level for the group is now 7 with 2 of the PC's out of the 5 being level 9 and 2 of them are level 6 and one is level 5.
CR 7 creatures seem to pose little threat to them as a group and I've been experimenting a little with uping the CR rating of the encouters to give them a little more of a challenge.
I recently put them up against a roper which is CR 12 and even though they couldn't bypass his SR 30 to do any damage with spells, they still managed to take it down with the roper not landing more than one or two bites on them. Sure they were tied up for a long time with the creature but it's +13 to hit with it's bite just didn't seem to pose much of a threat when the swashbuckler of the group has the ability to trasfer his Int modifier onto his AC, already has a high DEX modifier and has a feat which allows him to lower his attack by 5 and transfer that value to his AC also. +13 on AC 27 just isn't much of a threat at all. Does the Swashbuckler get to have all of those AC bonuses based on Dex and so forth while he is tied up in the tentacles of the Roper?
Why did this CR 12 creature not pose more of a threat to the PC's, did I do something wrong? | |
John
| |
|
Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 6:22 PM |
| Were you even hitting them with its strands?
Those things do 2d8 points of strength damage each time they hit, with Fort save for half.
If they're close enough to see it, they're close enough to be hit with its strands.
Oh, and if you're grappled, you're flat-footed, and when you're flat-footed, you don't gain dodge bonuses to your AC, which is what I believe the Swashbuckler's Canny Defence is. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
Vindicated Called Shots: Blood Wars - Solar
Aberrations 60/60, Deathknell 60/60, Angelfire 60/60, Underdark 60/60, Wardrums 60/60, WotDQ 60/60 | |
|
IHawk
Underboss
1049 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 05/15/2006 6:26 PM |
| It is my understanding that characters built around the
25 point build, with average treasure and possessions would
be able to defeat CR encounter equal to thier average EL
without much risk of defeat or without consuming much in the
way of consumables. Now if the party has a higher than 25 point
build and are awarded more than average treasure...the
CRs that are published with the monsters are no longer
an accurate challenge. Also, whenever you have players 2+ above
the APL, it is not much of a challenge for them to defeat
those mosters whos CR is equal to the Average party level, especially
once you get into the 9th level casters throwing 5th level spells
at CR 7 monsters.
Sometimes, as with your example it may have just been a good
matchup for the party. An entire party of casters may have had
trouble with the roper...even fatal trouble. Don't take it
personally. Increasing the CR is a good idea, but that has
limitiations. The higher the differential between CR & EL, the
better chance of character death, and that is never fun to
deal with. You could always experiment with higher CR's and
pull the punches and allow the party get away by the
skin of thier teeth once in a while...so that
they don't get too cocky :)
Good luck, and have fun. | |
mark - Champion of the Goblin Worg Riders | anteblue_at_yahoo_dot_com
IHawk's Have/Want List | IHawk's Trade List | Completed Trades - 214 | Pending Trades - 0
| |
|
IHawk
Underboss
1049 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 05/15/2006 6:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Were you even hitting them with its strands?
Those things do 2d8 points of strength damage each time they hit, with Fort save for half.
If they're close enough to see it, they're close enough to be hit with its strands.
Oh, and if you're grappled, you're flat-footed, and when you're flat-footed, you don't gain dodge bonuses to your AC, which is what I believe the Swashbuckler's Canny Defence is.
BTW, U do retain your dex against the foe(s) you are grappling. You
Do loose the Dex against those outside of the grapple. | |
mark - Champion of the Goblin Worg Riders | anteblue_at_yahoo_dot_com
IHawk's Have/Want List | IHawk's Trade List | Completed Trades - 214 | Pending Trades - 0
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 7:12 PM |
| The roper has that high CR because it can quickly completely incapacitate characters by doing strength damage - low strength, low fort save characterrs like wizards, etc., will often be at strength 0 and helpless after just one or two hits.
BTW if the SRD is right, the fort save negates the strength damage rather than halving it. I haven't looked at the real roper entry in the MM for a while.
On the topic of the sticky tentacle drag maneuver, it is not the same as being grappled. I would allow all the dex bonuses, etc., to stay effective. The bite attack is more for using on foes that have had their strength drained down to zero who can't resist.
Also note that the bite goes up to +17 against dragged opponents. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
kestrel.ca
Underboss
1676 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 7:40 PM |
| Your average PC level might be 7, but you have 5 players, not 4. This allows for 25% more activations than expected per round, and as said before, with 2 PCs at level 9, the CR 7 wouldn't be that tough.
In my games, which I often like to have 6 PCs in, I tend to adjudicate appropriate EL as avg party level +2. This tends to account for the extra actions, increased options, etc. I also award experience as if they were party level +2 (so they don't gain xp way too quickly).
For your group, I would probably expect a bunch of EL 8 & 9 to wear them down, and a EL 12 or 13 to be a tough challenge. I know that's what you tried with the roper, but what about a bunch of level 8 NPCs? (4 I think would give you EL 12) | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 91 || Pending Trades: 0 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1809 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 9:55 PM |
| It all depends on the setup. Was the roper in a room where they could reach it? Did it use tentacles to perform touch attacks to sap the strength out of multiple opponents each round? Was it hung from the ceiling negating most of their melee attacks, in a cluster of stalactites gaining cover from ranged attacks? Did it wait in the darkness to full attack the last party member to lower his strength to 0 and thus unable to even speak, than yank them up into the darkness?
Roper's are fairly smart. They wouldn't just engage in the center of the room waiting on all the PC's to attack it. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 11:53 PM |
| Yes, the roper was using the tentacle attacks and yes, for the most part the Pc's were making their saves against the weakness. Only 2 of the PC's failed against the weakness DC and they each only failed once so they both still had some strength left. In the case of the Swashbuckler, Strength loss (Unless down to 0 of course) wasn't affecting his productiveness at all. The cleric of the group casted grease on the swashbuckler once he was grappled by 4 of the tentacles and from that point on the roper would grapple him but he would just make his escape artist checks with ease due to the fact that he already had many ranks in that skill. The swashbuckler continued to present himself as a primary target because he knew he would be able to escape easily and would be providing aditional cover to the other PC's from the tentacles range attacks helping them not to get grappled.
Do the PC's have to make a save against the weakness each round and a seperate save for each tentacle that is attached or only when the hit is scored by the tentacle? This could have caused a few more save rolls and may have made it a little more difficult but not much.
The PC's were rolling very well for their fort saves and the swashbuckler (which was proving to be a vital defense for the rest of the group against the roper) had been reduced to only 1 point of strength remaining. Had he failed one more save I suppose the outcome could have been a great deal different and perhaps now that I think about it some more, maybe this was more of a close call than I initially thought, and the PC's were luckier than I perceived them to be. | |
John
| |
| 
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 12:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Strength loss didn't drop that swashbuckler to a medium load?
Another thing to consider is adding more instead of one big one. Often, one bigger creature is easy to gang up and take down than a closer mirror match ... four (or five) CR 8s for instance.
BINGO, that's what I was missing. Carrying capacity for sure would have played a roll here in negating a lot of his Dex bonuses.
I still think the PC's would have overcome this beast anyway, but it would have been a much scarrier match up for them. I'll have to take extra special care next time they encounter one or maybe even two ropers (PC level pending) to spell it out to them that this is a dangerous beast and not to be taken lightly as they may now have that perception of ropers. | |
John
| |
|
kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 12:24 AM |
| Turn that negative into a positive! The next time they will be underestimating ropers, and fall victim to the Sir Robin Syndrome, aka "Well, that's EASY!" Then you can really nail -- er, challenge them. [}:)]
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
|
notserious
Sneak
117 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 8:37 AM |
| | If the maxminis crew has a fault (and I'm not sure they do) is that every now and then they/we get a little self-congratulatory about how civil we are and how we tend to have a 'higher' level of dialogue than 'other' sites. Mind you, there is good reason for that - maxminis actually got mentioned in an online WOTC article, and think about how many of our big dogs have developed formal connections with WOTC. As another support for this pride, I would point to this series of posts - WOW! First of all, kudos to MackeyJ for posting such an honest question that risked exposing him to criticism; second, props to the other posters for offering usable suggestions in a very positive manner; and finally, another tip of the hat to MackeyJ for taking the time to read through everybody's thoughts and offering feedback on what he saw as most relevant to his situation. I gotta say, that even with over 20 years of running games, I felt I benefitted (is that even a verb?) from reading this. Thanks guys. | |
| |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 9:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MackeyJ
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Strength loss didn't drop that swashbuckler to a medium load?
Another thing to consider is adding more instead of one big one. Often, one bigger creature is easy to gang up and take down than a closer mirror match ... four (or five) CR 8s for instance.
BINGO, that's what I was missing. Carrying capacity for sure would have played a roll here in negating a lot of his Dex bonuses.
Once a Swashbuckler gets a med. load (or is wearing med. armor, etc.) it would lose the insightful strike, dodge bonuses to AC (from the feat and class ability) and the ability to tumble. Squelch! | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
* * * Show your brother some love and click here * * * | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 05/16/2006 2:49 PM |
| After a year and a half playing 3.5, i feel i'm still experimenting at times with the monster CR. I've had my PCs defeat some monsters easily, while others have threatened to take out the entire party (although that hasn't happened until last weekend when they were captured).
After exploring 3.5, what i feel is that use of extraordinary conditions helps a lot in providing for interesting and challenging combats. For example, having archers hidden behind barricades and melee opponents to protect the archers and difficult terrain between the PCs and the archers, can increase the difficulty level of the encounter significantly. Or you can have a fire burning in a building with studs falling from the ceiling here and there (5% chance each round as rolled by each creature, 1d6 + 1d6 fire damage and save or pinned, DC 20 to break the pin). Or if the combat occurs outside, you can have a small river flowing next to the road the PCs are on with archers and/or spellcasters on the other side (no need for them to be strong), to make the PCs swim to get to them. Overall, using the skills and other special abilities (druids that move freely through brush or rogues or other light-loaded characters that can swim easily or spell casters that can use lower water in a swamp or ice storm in
burning chapel) is one fun aspect of 3.5 in my opinion.
Generally, my opponents for a particular encounter can be easier to defeat if the PCs managed to play skillfully and take the opponents by surprise, or much more difficult if they walk right in announced when the opponents will wait to ambush them.
One other thing, that was suggested by one or two other poster, is to vary the type of opponents instead of increasing the CR. Try several 6 CR 7 opponents with melee fighters and spell casters and see what happens. They try a dozen CR 4 opponents led by one CR 8 opponent, but with less variety (e.g. a fiendish enhanced winter wolf leading fiendish worgs or something like that).
This being said, i'm still learning about all of this, but this is what i've been trying to do lately.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
Zenako
Commander
3462 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:23 PM |
| Never, never underestimate the synergy of PC's. They also have 5 minds (in this example) working against your one in the dynamics of an encounter situation. That being said, it is a a VERY common mistake to ignore or overlook the secondary impacts of various damage types, such as STR loss. Every fighter type will account for loss of Hit prob and damage when they lose STR, but the loss of feats or other abilities due to moving from light to medium or heavy loads is frequently overlooked. Also many people do not have the load / encumberance tables committed to memory, so it might be hard to know, gee, I just dropped from an 11 STR to an 8, and I have 40 lbs of gear, is that still a light load?? For tank fighters who are wearing heavy armor anyway, it might not matter, until they drop so far as to be unable to move, but a Dex/Skill based fighter will often have to be real careful about STR loss.
That alone would have significantly changed the dynamics of the battle, and if the Swashbucker was out of commission, perhaps the rest of the party would have quickly fallen as well. Was the Swashbuckler acutally hurting the Roper, or just acting as a target sponge? Ropers are smart and do not have to attack the nearest foe (unlike in DDM Skirmish) so it could have been hammering away at lots of people, dropping strength left and right, and perhaps even dropping some of those people to the ground, unable to move. Also not sure of the exact rules, but we generally play that once a Stat drops below human minimum, ie 3, that you collapse, unable to move or react. That might be a house rule, but a STR 1 human would hardly be able to move or do anything since he would almost certainly be very heavily encumbered at the very least.
Try using combinations of monsters. Last time I had a roper or two, I also had some rust monsters in the cave as well. The two monsters type complimented each other, and it gave the PC's fits, since to reach the Roper they also had to deal with the rust monsters as well.
As was pointed out the difference between 4 and 5 PC's is also huge when figuring out CR levels to give a good challenge. We often have 6 to 8 and sometimes 10 PCs at a time, which makes for some very difficult encounters, both to beat and for the DM to set up so that they do pose a challenge without being unbeatable. (Our possible 10 PC group is also around level 16 in general so there is some serious kick butt power on the PC side to deal with.) | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Never, never underestimate the synergy of PC's. They also have 5 minds (in this example) working against your one in the dynamics of an encounter situation. That being said, it is a a VERY common mistake to ignore or overlook the secondary impacts of various damage types, such as STR loss. Every fighter type will account for loss of Hit prob and damage when they lose STR, but the loss of feats or other abilities due to moving from light to medium or heavy loads is frequently overlooked. Also many people do not have the load / encumberance tables committed to memory, so it might be hard to know, gee, I just dropped from an 11 STR to an 8, and I have 40 lbs of gear, is that still a light load?? For tank fighters who are wearing heavy armor anyway, it might not matter, until they drop so far as to be unable to move, but a Dex/Skill based fighter will often have to be real careful about STR loss.
That alone would have significantly changed the dynamics of the battle, and if the Swashbucker was out of commission, perhaps the rest of the party would have quickly fallen as well. Was the Swashbuckler acutally hurting the Roper, or just acting as a target sponge? Ropers are smart and do not have to attack the nearest foe (unlike in DDM Skirmish) so it could have been hammering away at lots of people, dropping strength left and right, and perhaps even dropping some of those people to the ground, unable to move. Also not sure of the exact rules, but we generally play that once a Stat drops below human minimum, ie 3, that you collapse, unable to move or react. That might be a house rule, but a STR 1 human would hardly be able to move or do anything since he would almost certainly be very heavily encumbered at the very least.
Try using combinations of monsters. Last time I had a roper or two, I also had some rust monsters in the cave as well. The two monsters type complimented each other, and it gave the PC's fits, since to reach the Roper they also had to deal with the rust monsters as well.
As was pointed out the difference between 4 and 5 PC's is also huge when figuring out CR levels to give a good challenge. We often have 6 to 8 and sometimes 10 PCs at a time, which makes for some very difficult encounters, both to beat and for the DM to set up so that they do pose a challenge without being unbeatable. (Our possible 10 PC group is also around level 16 in general so there is some serious kick butt power on the PC side to deal with.)
That would be a house rule, yeah - by the book you're not helpless until you hit 0. Raising the threshold for that certainly makes ability drain and poison more dangerous, especially for the str 8 wizards and rogues out there. I don't think I would use that rule, just because I think ability loss is bad enough already. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
Zenako
Commander
3462 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:59 PM |
| Ok, I thought it might be.
from the SRD
<br>Table: Carrying Capacity <br> Light Medium Heavy<br>Strength Load Load Load<br>-------- ----- ------ -----<br>1 STR up to 3 lb. 4-6 lb. 7-10 lb.<br>2 STR up to 6 lb. 7-13 lb. 14-20 lb.<br>3 STR up to 10 lb. 11-20 lb. 21-30 lb.<br>
which would mean that anything over 4 lbs TOTAL would have put the 1 STR Swashbuckler into Medium and over 20 lbs (see below) he would have been almost motionless due to encumberance.
Also in the SRD.
A character can lift up to double the maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can only move 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
So yup, Stat below 3 is "ok" but probably still incapacitated as far as combat and movement goes. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
8879 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/17/2006 3:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Strength loss didn't drop that swashbuckler to a medium load?
I would have never even thought of that, and the possible implications it would have in a fight. I've mostly just used load for figuring out how much treasure I could carry out of a dungeon. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 11:13 AM |
| Awesome feedback guys!
I've read through all of your responses and found every bit of it to be useful information.
As a DM, still learning the new 3.5 rules, I feel I've gained a great deal from what has come out of this topic.
Thank you all. | |
John
| |
|
MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 11:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Was the Swashbuckler acutally hurting the Roper, or just acting as a target sponge?
Zenako,
Mostly yes, he was acting as a target sponge. I think he only scored one or two actual hits once he was close enough to the roper. However I was still targeting other PC's with the tentacle atacks and doing so using a bit of random probability right out in the open in front of the players.
For example: When 4 of the 5 PC's were in view and within reach, Swashbuckler up front, I would pull out a d8 and roll to see who he would go after. With the swashbuckler in the front I'd say on a roll of 6,7 or 8 a tentacle would go after him, on a 4 or 5 the next PC, on a 2 or 3 the next PC, and finally on a roll of 1 it would attack the furthest away PC.
I do rolls of this nature A LOT, mostly because I will quite often throw in my own character into the campaign to round out the group. I try to play him extremely impartially and usually let someone else take care of his movements around the gaming mat. This seems to satisfy my need to put my own character at just as great a risk as the other players charcters while alowing me to also DM for the group.
Once again I'll say the players were rolling exceptionally well on their saving throws.
I'm still curious though... on the topic of the saves vs weakness, do they have to make the save only each time the tentacles score a hit or the next round as well, while the tentacle is still attached, or is that at the DM's discretion. I feel it's bad enough that every time the tentacles score a hit that a save must be made especially since the darn things respawn themselves as a free action when severed and get to attack again right away after, but I don't mind hearing some other opinions. | |
John
| |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/17/2006 11:45 AM |
| I have always ruled that it's 1 save per tentacle. The sap affects you from the tentacle only once for each strand.
Edit: The above is not entirely clear. One save per hit per tentacle. Exactly as Z described. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
|
MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 11:49 AM |
| Just as added information here I thought I might offer up the tactics that the PC's came up with to defeat this thing.
Aside from the couple of melee hits scored by the swashbuckler, the sorcerer of the group, who made his save vs weakness every time, was taking 2 rounds to cast true strike and then attack the roper (this was after realizing through trial and error that his other spells weren't gonna be of any use) the rest of the group quickly figured out that ranged touch attacks were the best way to go and began throwing flaming flasks of oil (which one of the PC's is obsesed about carry multiples of at all times). The fire damge from the burning oil, despite the spash damaged that 2 of the PC's in melee with the roper were taking too, was proving to be the most effective way of dealing with this nasty boy.
I gotta say at first when the roper came out I wasn't feeling much love for him, but figured I'd try it out in RPG at least once. This monster has definitely grown on me a great deal after only one use. The roper will get used again by me in future campaigns and more than likely again in the one I'm currently running. | |
John
| |
|
Zenako
Commander
3462 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 12:27 PM |
| Pretty good call with the allocation of roper attacks on the PC's. Unless the monster has good reason to know where to optimize its attacks some sort of biased distribution like you used is fine. Allows the PC who wants to draw attacks to do so, but it does not protect the rest of the group completely.
I would have the tentacle Strength Drain Save occur each time the a target is hit. If grappled, they have still only been "hit" once. If they break free and then get hit by that tentacle again, apply the Save again. A Roper has almost no movement so is a "sitting" duck for many attacks at a distance, so it needs to be FORMIDABLE if fought via melee. I assume the PC's had good reason to want to get past the area it was located in? I have seen groups of PC's just turn around and try to find another way around than deal with these critters. The level PC's you have should find this monster hard to deal with. At higher levels, unbuffed Ropers are little better than meat shields to whatever they guard. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 5:02 PM |
| | Ropers are pretty smart, so I don't think it would necessarily stretch credulity for them to recognize likely casters (who does that guy in the robes with a wand think he's kidding) and target them first. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 05/17/2006 5:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Ropers are pretty smart, so I don't think it would necessarily stretch credulity for them to recognize likely casters (who does that guy in the robes with a wand think he's kidding) and target them first.
Actually, considering the roper's SR, it might target other opponents first instead (although this is arguable). But your point is taken, the roper is not mindless.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |