yack
Commander
3320 Posts
    
Gatineau Canada
 | | 05/20/2006 12:55 PM |
| Myself and another DM lastnight were having a few drinks and something came up.
Say a creature has more then one attack do you always use the same target (say ex. claw attacks when there is more then one target in range) or do you choose seperate targets.(one claw per target). Also how do you choose what character gets hit with what attack..?
For example the DM I was talking too says he has 6 charcaters in his group so if all 6 are in range he rolls a D6 too see who gets hit.
Just curious on what other DMs think and use..
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 1:32 PM |
| There's no clear answer to this question IMHO. It depends on the creature. Most animals for example, will attack wounded enemies first. IF all healthy then the smallest or the most provoking. Smart monsters will consider spellcasting abilities, armor, past experience....
When my creatures have no preferences, I usually roll a dice. Furthermore, I try not to seperate multiple attacks because creatures tend to try and eliminate threats rather than cause damage to many opponents, but it really depends on the creature. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 2:03 PM |
| | For me, the most important considerations are (1) behavior of the monster, and (2) dramatic appropriateness. For example, I'll rarely full-attack a character if the character is very likely to die outright from the attack; I'll find a reason for the creature to split its attacks. | |
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Anthraxus
Warrior
212 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 2:24 PM |
| Depends on the intelligence/motivation of the creature. Int 0 creatures will generally attack the nearest creature, even if it's got a 30AC and can only hit on a "20", while a 1 or 2 Int creature will try someone else if it's not hitting, etc...
Generally, I concentrate full attacks on one person (and hope they don't go down below -9, but dem's the breaks[}:)]) unless I can find another reason why the creature would split it's attacks. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/20/2006 2:42 PM |
| | It depends for me as well. In the absence of a particular reason to attack a char, I roll dice. I usually have a reason why they're attacking the char. I don't usually have beasties split their attacks. | |
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 05/20/2006 3:00 PM |
| I was just wondering .. cause we used the Girralon(sp..?) as a example. Once it came as a wandering monster and man that thing has a ton of hits if you add in the bonus of render. I used it on one character and he died. My buddy thought I should of split the attacks up. Which I'm now thinking yeah I should of...
add in the 4 claws, the bite and then render. Thats one dirty beast.
So I was just wondering if DMs out there had secret house rules they use behind the DM wall. [:I]
Great use on the intelligence though love that idea. | |
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 05/20/2006 3:00 PM |
| | I have intelligent enemies attack the one that hurt it last (or most) usually. If two party members have hurt it, it could split it's attacks, but not usually. | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 3:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by yack
I was just wondering .. cause we used the Girralon(sp..?) as a example. Once it came as a wandering monster and man that thing has a ton of hits if you add in the bonus of render. I used it on one character and he died. My buddy thought I should of split the attacks up. Which I'm now thinking yeah I should of...
add in the 4 claws, the bite and then render. Thats one dirty beast.
So I was just wondering if DMs out there had secret house rules they use behind the DM wall. [:I]
Great use on the intelligence though love that idea.
A girallon is a magical beast with animal intelligence. Had I been running the encounter, the girallon would have most probably charge the smallest member, the one with the strongest scent of blood or the one in the back, pound it with its mighty claws, grab it and run away to try and eat the poor adventurer that walked near an hungry girallon. Why else would it attack ?
This can allow the players to chase it and retrieve their friend for the much needed healing (if he's not dead), or allow a smart player to feint death (to avoid real death) and trust his life with his friends fast reaction.
Oh, almost forgot, when characters don't act stupid (in my eyes) I try not to punish them with character death, faking rolls if needed. I do give my players fair warning that there are fights best left unfought and encounters solved by running real fast. I try to give hints when putting such encounters. (For example, letting them see that the girallon pack is feasting on trolls that the adventurers had trouble with themself, or having all the monsters in an area fear a specific monster, showing respect, giving tribute and keeping away) | |
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 05/20/2006 3:19 PM |
| | Funny you say that cause I did have it come from behind and grab the one in the back but there was nothing left of the character after. He hit was all 4 claws and that gave him the render ability. Poor halfling was done. But there was another character right next too the halfling but I used all atacks on the halfling. Thats why I wanted too know if I was wrong in doing that. | |
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Bijan Ajamlou
Sneak
91 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 3:27 PM |
| When we play we play completly hardcore! As an example we roll all roles in the open if we can (some roles like bluff cant always be rolled in the open...) I encourage my players to optimize and so do I. Whit that said I still as a DM fallow the monsters/charactars intents/Intellegence/type/alligment.
I never hold back on attacks when I see a character is about to die, according to me that is a flawed typ of DMing since it undermines the fealing of seariousnes and accomplishment of defeting monsters.
Here are some examples of how i use some common creatueres:
1 int Animal --- Attack nearest target. continue attacking the nearest creature unless it fights defencivly. If 2 or more creatures are the nereast I distribute the attacks randomly. Make morale save when at half hp (DC 20 will) or disengage and flee.
3 int Animal --- Attack the smallest weakest locking creature, use stealt(Move Silently, Hide), flanking and reach to maximum effect. Use fight deffencivly and grabble, disarm and other special actions. Keep attacking the same creature untill another creature shows upp that is a bigger threat, If a great fighter joins the melee and makes hard damage the animal attacks him instead. Make morale save when at half hp (DC 20 will) or disengage and flee.
C magical beast whit 4+ Int. same as above but chose target at random, and distribute attacks randomly. Use terrain to greater effect (stand in higher ground when in melee and so on). I make the morale saves when at 25% instead to reflect the more chatic nature and risktaking. I also often rage and use the Reckless Offence feat on chaotic creatures
L outsider int 4+. Use defence to maximum. Use terrain features for defence (hide in trees for concealment, behind enemys/structures to gain cover from ranged attacks. Use attack defencevly when at low hp, dont take any risk, flee if the situation loock dire and so on... | |
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Anthraxus
Warrior
212 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 3:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by yack
Funny you say that cause I did have it come from behind and grab the one in the back but there was nothing left of the character after. He hit was all 4 claws and that gave him the render ability. Poor halfling was done. But there was another character right next too the halfling but I used all atacks on the halfling. Thats why I wanted too know if I was wrong in doing that.
Was there anything wrong with taking all 4 attacks on one character? No.
Did it suck that all 4 claws hit and activated the rend? Yep. [:p]
The thing that sucks about the back of the party- most of the weaker(lower HP) characters like to hang back there. If you hit them from behind, and they have no High AC cleric or something in the very back(for just such a happenstance), they are generally screwed. | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 3:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by yack
Funny you say that cause I did have it come from behind and grab the one in the back but there was nothing left of the character after. He hit was all 4 claws and that gave him the render ability. Poor halfling was done. But there was another character right next too the halfling but I used all atacks on the halfling. Thats why I wanted too know if I was wrong in doing that.
Very sad experience for the halfling. More importantly, the player probably didn't enjoy this as well. Maybe they'll find the leftovers from the meal and reincranate him/her ?
One can only hope that the adventuring party learned, as a group, that a rear guard is just as important as a strong first line.
I must say I would have dome the same thing. Were they in an adequate envirounment for the girallon? Had they seen large monkeys in the wood above? Carrying fire to scare simple animals could work as well (though an hungry girallon would probably overcome his fear if it didn't eat long enough - the benefit of being the strongest thing it knows and having aching stomach) | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/20/2006 3:50 PM |
| | My players have learned to keep a rear guard, usually the 2nd most capable fighter type. | |
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Dragon Snack
Warrior
285 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 7:00 PM |
| Non-intelligent creatures I have attack the nearest character.
For semi-intelligent creatures I mix it up, sometimes I use a random die roll and sometimes I attack whoever did the most damage to the creature.
Depending on it's motivation (defense or food), if the creature will drop the character with his first attacks they may attack multiple characters. Either way, it's all out on one opponent until they go down (dead or not). | |
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Knight of the
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Thenameless
Warlord
12481 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/20/2006 7:54 PM |
| | Depends on the enemy. If it's something like an animal, the DM will often randomize by rolling a die. If we are engaged against an intelligent "mirror-match" party, then the opposing characters will optimize their strengths and try to best cover their weaknesses. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 11:33 PM |
| Yeah, you really have to get inside the creature's head. I usually have creatures with animal intelligence attack the nearest creature (or random if there are multiple targets). But you do have to ask why the creature is attacking in the first place.
Slightly more intelligent beasties would likely attack the weakest looking target. Could be someone who is injured or diseased or exhausted, or the smallest. If it is an advanced creature, it may have some experience, and know that the opponents with the pointy things and hard shiny skins are harder to take down.
But it is always nice to mix up the reactions. Most creatures would shy away from someone wielding fire. But a troll that has felt the touch of fire just might preferentially attack such a character, to snuff out the "flower that burns!"
For intelligent creatures, I sometimes let alignment be the guide. Chaotic creatures just might split up their attacks, to spread as much pain as possible. Lawful critters might focus attacks to systematically take opponents down. Leaders might stay back and plunk arrows into unarmored spellcasters, or they might step forth and engage the strongest-looking foe, depending on what kind of leader they are.
Yack: You made a good call on the Girallon. It was a very appropriate attack for a carnivorous hunting beastie. It'll also teach your party to keep their head on a swivel and post a rear guard. Lesson learned. [:D]
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arbados
Underboss
1450 Posts
New York, USA
| | 05/21/2006 2:10 AM |
| It depends on a few things. I will outline some of what I feel are most important.
First, if the creature attacking the group does not have any "preference" for attack (say a kobold seeing a gnome for example) than I roll randomly to see who it attacks. If it does have preference then it most likely will go for that character first. However,....
Depending on where the group and the creatures are positioned on the battle map when the battle starts I will make a decision on who to attack depending on the creatures ability to develop a startegic attack. If it is mindless undead they will probably just attack the nearest individual. If it is a band of duergar they may target whom they feel would be their biggest threat (spellcasters possibly).
So do I roll randomly, yes often, but on the other hand I very often choose who would be the most logical to attack. I take into consideration AoO's if the creature may be aware of such, moving into spell casters range for an AoO if they try and cast spells, move into grapple weaker opponents if it looks viable in what they can do, etc.
Creatures of less than animal intelligence and mindless undead will usually attack the nearest threat or source of food!
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arbados
Underboss
1450 Posts
New York, USA
| | 05/21/2006 2:15 AM |
| Oh, forgot to say, that I usually spend all the creatures attacks on one individual unless of course that individual should fall and there is another within range. I think you did the right thing.
I also try not to fudge with a creatures battle tactics. If it makes sense that they will assault one character to death then those are the breaks. I may however, if the player was just hit by chance give them a little break behind the scenes with makiing one attack miss if it may bring them down. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 05/22/2006 2:49 PM |
| About the only punch pulling that goes on is not taking an extra attack on a fallen foe (to keep them down) if the monster has other viable targets to strike. If the monster is KNOWN to be evil and nasty, then it might well make sure the fallen foe is dead and not going to be getting back up. Mass HEAL type spells really change the dynamics of a battle.
In a battle yesterday in our high level OA game, one of the foes we fought was a high level Ettin. It chose to split it attacks taking all its left hand attacks against one foe, and its right hand attacks against another. The last of its 4 swings with the left hand dropped one of fighters. If could have taken its first right hand swing to make sure the fighter was dead, but it did not, and just used the right hand attacks on another PC, heavily wounding, but not dropping that PC. At high levels it is very easy to end up dishing out 100+ points of damage per combatant a round so taking characters from healthy to dead is very possible. Now our high level Shugenja then cast a Mass Heal which brought our almost dead fallen companion back to health, negating all the effort of the ettin. Had he taken one blow to kill the PC, then he would have actually gained ground in the battle. (10 PC's vs huge monster piles. We had lost one powerful rogue/templar who got banished back to the Material Plane already. Losing more would have hurt. We are in the bastion of Lost souls module... and had just defeated 3 Balors, 4 Glaby's, a Nalafashnee, a Hezrou, 3 Vrocks and a Collosal Retreiver! We are almost EPIC, mostly 18th level PCs at this point.)
Point of this is that level is not a determinate in the course of action, but more so the experience level of the players involved. We always have a number of powerful fighting characters in the back. Often those also have superior movement rates as well which allows them to get into melee if needed towards the front. | |
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Anthraxus
Warrior
212 Posts
| | 05/22/2006 4:16 PM |
| On a side note- as a DM, I always dread killing characters, but I think when you don't fudge the dice it makes it more rewarding. "The troll's rend took me down to -9hp, but they hit me with a cure mod on the next round, and I chopped him in half!"
When you play mid- levels, you get down to the low teens in Hit points, and your opponent has more attacks, that's when you get scared. 'Cause when they are doing 20-30 points of damage in one hit, you are in death range!
I have died twice in LG that way, the 2nd or 3rd hit taking me down to the low numbers- the DM asks me "How you doing?". I shrug and say "I'm still standing..", and the last hit takes me to -15 or lower. [xx(]
Of course, many times I have been in that range, and they missed with their final attack, so I lived. That's excitement. [:)]
Risk is all part of the game!
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/22/2006 7:34 PM |
| For me, depends on the encounter intelligence and personality.
Beast intelligence tends to chomp at the first in line until its dead. Smarter foes will target spell casters and ranged attackers first quite probably.
The mindless undead & like I random roll.
Mercs or semi-civilized, especially lawful, will withhold the 'mercy stroke' in case they end up surrendering and to be hopefully treated same way. Nastier foes make sure the boot goes in. Nasty and smart foes make sure the PC is dead and pick up the shiny sword from them ;)
So also depends on the PC's reputation... if they get known as no holds bare, then the foes will need to react similar.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 05/23/2006 12:39 PM |
| Like alot of people have said... take the intellegence of the creature in mind. Most intellegent opponents will target the spell casters. Most creatures will concentrate attacks. It is just the truth of the situation. Does your 10 Int fighter seperate up his attacks on each opponent or does he drop one then move on to the next? Why shouldn't a monster with equal intellegence do the same.
We have a large group, and when treading through the jungle or some such... we keep a tough rear guard (the fighter / cleric) and if possible able bodied flankers as well (the monk and the fighter/ranger/tempest). A group of 8 people and you can do that. We even send the shadow dancer out front a ways to scout out a bit. That leaves the stoutest warrior (dwarven defender) to walk right in front of the wizard and the cleric and the fighter/arcane archer to wander about as needed.
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/23/2006 1:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
Like alot of people have said... take the intellegence of the creature in mind. Most intellegent opponents will target the spell casters. Most creatures will concentrate attacks. It is just the truth of the situation. Does your 10 Int fighter seperate up his attacks on each opponent or does he drop one then move on to the next? Why shouldn't a monster with equal intellegence do the same.
We have a large group, and when treading through the jungle or some such... we keep a tough rear guard (the fighter / cleric) and if possible able bodied flankers as well (the monk and the fighter/ranger/tempest). A group of 8 people and you can do that. We even send the shadow dancer out front a ways to scout out a bit. That leaves the stoutest warrior (dwarven defender) to walk right in front of the wizard and the cleric and the fighter/arcane archer to wander about as needed.
Well put.
I take the ability scores into consideration when it comes to the tactics of combat.
When in a rush I have 3 simple rules:
1-Stupid attacks the first thing in the way and then attacks the last thing that hit him.
2-Average wants to win and thinks he can always win.
3-Smart plans ahead, sees all posibilities and uses his skills to the best of his abilities. (In other words run them the best you, the DM, can).
Factor that with the nature of the creature and then apply it to their alignment. Works for me when I didn't have time to plan ahead. | |
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notserious
Sneak
117 Posts
| | 05/24/2006 1:50 PM |
| | Nasty monsters are nasty for that very reason - they kill PC's, or turn them to stone, or drain their levels, or . . .the list of things monsters (and the DM's who run them) can do is considerable. If we tone those things down we make the monster less nasty, and the game potentially less interesting . . .but you know your players and your game better than we do. I do think, though, that we have a responsibility to be fair to players - have monsters act in motivation and according to motivation. And skill rolls apply to monsters too - have them make their move silently and hide rolls. After losing a few characters to stalkers my PC's got a lot more serious about ranks in spot and listen. Finally, I think there is room for DM mercy after death for a PC who was the hapless victim of really good rolls on my part - readier access to raising, a leg up on generating a new character (I usually have someone who lost a character have to generate at the same level as the lowest level PC in the group (of they weren't already tied for that honour) or at their old level minus one (if they were already lowest level) and am a little stingy with new gear. A bad luck death will usually convince me to relent on that). | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 05/24/2006 4:11 PM |
| Have I pulled punches or fudge dice rolls or made bad tatical decision on purpose? Yes.
Do I try to avoid it? Yes.I would generally perfer a slightly lower CR with a full forward attack then a higher CR with half assed attack. I have also cheated on the side of the monster if the fight was too easy. The idea is to keep the party, or most of them, alive and to create a story where become heroic.
so do what is in the best interest of the monster unless in the situation you want to do otherwise.[:D]
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 05/26/2006 11:39 AM |
| | usually the once who porvoked it to the point of violance, imho. | |
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zhanteel
Sneak
173 Posts
| | 05/26/2006 12:30 PM |
| Good conversation all the way around. I don't normally roll for targets, but that's because right now most of the creatures my players encounter are intelligent, and therefore have a general strategy regarding who needs to die first. I have, however rolled for situations like if party members represent an equal threat to the monster.
As for fudging rolls, yeah I've done that. My take on combat is to make it challenging, but not readily fatal. Right now My goal is to inflict a strong amount of damage, and drop one or two people without killing them. Most of my fudging has been on the monster side, boosting hp by a few or ac by a couple points | |
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 05/26/2006 10:58 PM |
| Well when I first created the thread too see if I was in the wrong for my actions...but yeah this has turned into a great source of ideas. Thanks everyone!!!
My halfling has rolled up a new character.. so lets hope lesson learned.[:D] | |
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