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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
    
West Valley City, Utah
 | | 05/30/2006 1:20 AM |
| Having been working on the Quixotic Priest class with my friend, my creative juices got flowing. For sometime, I have desired an alternative choice to the rogue for being an indoor scout for the party. My thoughts led to the development of the class I show below. I would like feedback and/or advice from experienced dungeon masters (and whoever else wishes to comment). Any editing suggestions (minor or greater) would be great. Does this class seem to be fairly balanced? Thank your for your time.
By the way, is there already some class called "Dungeoneer" out there somewhere?
Dungeoneer
Description:
The dungeoneer is an adventurer skilled in the art of locating and disabling traps and opening locks. He is also skilled in the use of arms and armor and is an able combatant. He is first and foremost an explorer of dungeons and caves, ruins and castles. His sturdiness and reflexes allow him to lead a party from room to room. He is prepared to battle toe-to-toe if threatening creatures are encountered. His knowledge of dungeoneering and architecture & engineering helps him perform his duties efficiently.
Adventures:
Dungeoneers love adventuring and devote their learning and skills towards indoor exploration, spelunking, and dungeoneering.
Characteristics:
Dungeoneers are talented all-around fighters, being familiar with all standard arms and armor. They are also highly skilled—almost as much as rogues. Their class skills are not as broad as the rogue, as their attention is split between fighting and technical expertise.
Alignment:
Dungeoneers may be of any alignment. Good dungeoneers love exploration and removing threats so that others may be safer. Evil dungeoneers may be motivated by greed and destruction. Chaotic dungeoneers enjoy the excitement of exploration, and may need any particular reason to risk themselves with the challenges of exploration. Lawful dungeoneers may be more methodical in their approach, intrigued by solving technical challenges.
Religion:
Dungeoneers often worship Kord, god of strength, Moradin, god of the dwarves, or Pelor, god of the sun. However, dungeoneers often choose to worship other deities as well.
Background:
Some dungeoneers gained their training from Dwarven architects and builders. Others through informal training from rogues who sought to teach them their trade. Still others have military backgrounds.
Races:
Dwarves make natural dungeoneers, being sturdy warriors and having experience in the mountains or underground. Humans, being flexible, make good dungeoneers. Half-elven dungeoneers are not as common, but are still relatively easy to find. Halflings and elves are less common, but are not unheard of as dungeoneers. Half-orcs can struggle with the technical aspects of dungeoneering, and it is uncommon, but not rare, to find them choosing this class.
Other Classes:
Though dungeoneers often receive some training from rogues in their early development, rogues who adventure with dungeoneers feel it a duty to the guild to show that rogues are better suited to scouting than dungeoneers. Rogues are also motivated by competitive pride to do the lockpicking, and trapfinding and trap removal before the dungeoneer can show them up. Paladins, knights, and good clerics often prefer the company of a dungeoneer over a rogue. This is particularly true with paladins and good knights. Fighters respect the fighting skills of the dungeoneer, while rangers have a sense of unspoken brotherhood with dungeoneers—as they perceive them as an indoor counterpart. Other classes tend to work constructively with dungeoneers.
Role:
Dungeoneers are ideally suited as scouts in indoor or underground adventures. Their fighting prowess allows them to be primary combatants in the sometimes tight quarters they explore.
GAME RULE INFORMATION
Dungeoneers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Strength and Constitution are important to the dungeoneer for his fighting prowess. Dexterity and Intelligence are key to their success with their technical skills.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Class Skills
The Dungeoneer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Disable Device (Int), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) (Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Swim (Str). See PHB Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (6+Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Feats
A dungeoneer may count his levels as fighter levels for meeting the prerequisite for the Weapon Specialization feat.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the dungeoneer.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dungeoneer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).
Trapfinding (Ex): Dungeoneers (like rogues) can use the search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Dungeoneers can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
A dungeoneer who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device
check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his party without disarming it).
Evasion: At 2nd level and higher, a dungeoneer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or a fireball), he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the dungeoneer is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless dungeoneer (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of evasion. At 8th level, a dungeoneer can also benefit from evasion while wearing medium armor. At 14th level, a dungeoneer gains the benefit of evasion while wearing heavy armor.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a dungeoneer gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the dungeoneer reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Acute Hearing (Ex): At 3rd level, a dungeoneer’s sense of listening in some situations improves. When he is focusing (not during combat) and actively using their Listen skill, they gain a bonus of +1 for Listen checks. These bonuses rise to +2 when the dungeoneer reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
Works in Silence (Ex): At 3rd level, a dungeoneer’s ability to perform certain tasks quietly improves. When he is using the Search, Disable Device, or Open Lock skills, he can do so while moving silently. He also gains a +1 bonus on Move Silently while performing his task. These bonuses rise to +2 when the dungeoneer reaches 6th level, to +3 when he reaches 9th level, to +4 when he reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
NOTE: Chart from Excel does not transfer easily to a post. BAB progression of fighter. Good reflex save, others poor. Abilities gained as shown in descriptions. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| 
Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 12:36 PM |
| Interesting concept.
This class would seem fairly ideal for a dwarf. For a long time I have wanted a mechanically inclined dwarf character (Open Locks, Trapfinding, etc) with some martial abilities. To be honest, I have a really hard time picturing any other race filling this role.
Evasion seems really out of place on a heavy armor martial character. I know you build to the ability to use it in armor with increasing levels, but it still seems weird to me.
I'm curious: why did you decided to match good martial abilities (d10 HD, full BAB progression, great weapon and armor proficiencies) with a strong skill set (6 skill points / level, good skill list, abilities that complement these skills)? This is an usual choice: I can't think of a single existing class (or PrC) that does this.
One thing to consider- in many ways this is a rogue character trading some rogue abilities for fighter abilities. On balance, I think you need to ask yourself whether sacrificing 2 skill points / level, sneak attack and high level rogue abilities is worth d10 HD, full BAB, weapon and armor proficiencies. My gut reaction is that the martial abilities gained outweigh the rogue abilities sacrificed, however, I'd have to think about it more deeply to decide whether or not this is the case. At least going with d8 HD seems more appropriate ot me. | |
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/30/2006 12:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Interesting concept.
This class would seem fairly ideal for a dwarf. For a long time I have wanted a mechanically inclined dwarf character (Open Locks, Trapfinding, etc) with some martial abilities. To be honest, I have a really hard time picturing any other race filling this role.
Evasion seems really out of place on a heavy armor martial character. I know you build to the ability to use it in armor with increasing levels, but it still seems weird to me.
I'm curious: why did you decided to match good martial abilities (d10 HD, full BAB progression, great weapon and armor proficiencies) with a strong skill set (6 skill points / level, good skill list, abilities that complement these skills)? This is an usual choice: I can't think of a single existing class (or PrC) that does this.
One thing to consider- in many ways this is a rogue character trading some rogue abilities for fighter abilities. On balance, I think you need to ask yourself whether sacrificing 2 skill points / level, sneak attack and high level rogue abilities is worth d10 HD, full BAB, weapon and armor proficiencies. My gut reaction is that the martial abilities gained outweigh the rogue abilities sacrificed, however, I'd have to think about it more deeply to decide whether or not this is the case.
It may well be that the class is not balanced. I want the class to be balanced.
Paladins and Rangers have the BAB of fighter. Paladins have the same martial ability of a fighter, only they trade all the fighter feats for weaker divine casting, a mount, and some special abilities.
Rangers, however, get a d8 for hp, and only light armor. They gain weaker druid-like spells and a weaker animal companion than the druid. The dungeoneer (as shown above) has the same skills per level as a ranger.
If the HD were changed to d8 (and the Weapon Specialization feat thing were removed), what else would need to be done to make this class balanced without taking too much away? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 05/30/2006 9:24 PM |
| Oh dear - yes, the basics are "Way too much", and at odds with each other. You shouldn't give bonuses to move silently and then allow them to fight in heavy armour!
Let's look at what we have here:
* Good Heavy Armour Combatant
* Trapfinding
Those should be the basics of the class. Evasion and other related abilities do not go with Heavy Armour.
Corim - have another think about the role of the class and post that, then we can work on abilities.
Cheers!
| |
Merric Blackman
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|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 05/30/2006 9:44 PM |
| I think the basic idea for a dungeoneer class is great! However, i'll be frank that i'm having trouble buying the cross between a fighter and a rogue that you're proposing. Of course, mine is only an opinion, so take what you will. And in any event, i find your initiative quite fun (and quite challenging as i'm reflecting on it).
Here are some questions that come to mind when reading your class description:
- As suggested by another poster, evasion with heavy armor?
- how do you work in silence in heavy armor?
- how do you use acute hearing with your greathelm on?
- move silently when working? I'm unsure if the skill is intended for such a purpose. But i guess this can be done nonetheless. But how much sound those picking a lock actually do?
- he gets jump, climb, balance, but not tumble? Would he not want to learn how to fall when his climbing and balancing and jumping doesn't work to his advantage? Also, how does he jump, climb, balance with heavy armor?
- acute listening: only through doors and walls? Why is his hearing not as good when there is no obstruction?
From my perspective, the dungeoneer you propose needs to be able to work without hindrance since the question of heavy armor pops up way too often. That's because many if not most of the class-specific skills you want to grant him rely on dexterity, and consequently i think i'd give a try to that class by restricting armor proficiency to light armor, and any use of heavier armor would prevent certain abilities from working (work in silence, evasion etc...) in addition to the usual armor check penalty.
If i undertsand correctly, this is a guy that (1) searches for traps and disables them and opens locks, and (2) fights what's on the other side of the unlocked doors.
So i like your idea of providing good fighting skills to this guy as i can also see the dungeoneer as a good fighter - heck dungeons equal meanies :) So the fighter BAB indeed appears good. Perhaps postponing the decision of d10 or d8 is better at this point to see where the rest leads first, and you can decide at the end what would be most suitable depending on how the class fleshes out.
I think the trap finding and trap sense abilities could be increased. Indeed, these abilities appear to be at the core of the class: a dungeon technician. Somehow, it would be fun to find new actions that could be performed with the dungeoneer's equipment. (Maybe i'll have ideas later.)
I'm brainstorming here. Perhaps the dungeoneer could actually find traps without searching if he's not running, but the DC would then be increased by +10. And the trap sense could start with +1 at first level and increase more quickly afterward.
The more i think about it, to top off the class, some new abilities would be fun. Like i said before, maybe some stuff related to his equipment? I dunno. The idea would be to stray away from a fighter-rogue character.
Let me know how you see the dungeoneer in view of the above comments.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/30/2006 9:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Oh dear - yes, the basics are "Way too much", and at odds with each other. You shouldn't give bonuses to move silently and then allow them to fight in heavy armour!
Let's look at what we have here:
* Good Heavy Armour Combatant
* Trapfinding
Those should be the basics of the class. Evasion and other related abilities do not go with Heavy Armour.
Corim - have another think about the role of the class and post that, then we can work on abilities.
Cheers!
I would prefer the core of the class to be good heavy armor combatant that can find traps. The move silently part (works in silence) and evasion can go. The dungeoneer might be able to find and remove traps, but not very mobile at evading them. A clunky dungeoneer with the soot from an explosion comes walking back to the party saying sheepishly, "Uh, well, I took care of the trap."
It would be nice to have some class abilites to with him, since works in silence and evasion are gone. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/30/2006 10:00 PM |
| | For the Acute Hearing--it takes him time to focus (partly because there may be a helmet that needs to be removed temporarily). It wouldn't have to be only in certain situations like near door or wall. Maybe if he is engaged in listening at a door, and someone opens the door, he loses his first initiative, being flatfooted and needing to put his helmet back on. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/30/2006 10:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Skyscraper
- he gets jump, climb, balance, but not tumble? Would he not want to learn how to fall when his climbing and balancing and jumping doesn't work to his advantage? Also, how does he jump, climb, balance with heavy armor?
Fighters jump and climb with heavy armor. Not very well with their armor check penalties, but they are class skills. I have removed balance and move silently from the skill list. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
devasque
Sergeant
874 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 12:22 AM |
| WoTC tried running a PrC something along these lines in the Song and Silence splat book - Dungeon Delver - if that's the one you're refering to in your header.
Its list of specials went like this;
1) Danger Sense +2/+4 Traps
2) Blindsight 20ft
3) Stonecunning
4) Reduce
5) Darkvision
6) Danger Sense +4/+6
7) Treasure Sense
8) Blindsight 40ft
9) Find the path
10) Phase Door
I'm running a PC along the 'Dungeoneer' flavor currently and whoever said it above, dwarves seem to work best. My PC is an adhoc mix of Ranger/Rogue along with the Archivist class from Heroes of Horror. | |
You see! There ARE others out there just like me. What? Why are laughing? | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/31/2006 12:46 AM |
| Something I thought of this evening as I was searching for abilities to go with the Dungeoneer--
(I haven't figured out level obtained)
Battle Ready (Ex)
The dungeoneer reacts quickly to combat situations. On his first turn, if he begins with a move action, he may instead make two consecutive move actions. This only occurs on his first turn, and does not happen after a surprise round in which the dungeoneer was surprised. On a surprise round in which the dungeoneer is acting, he may make a move action before his standard or move action.
Later on, he could gain this ability:
Battle Cry (Ex)
Members of the dungeoneer's party may benefit from Battle Ready if they act after the dungeoneer has acted in the first round. This only applies to the first round. Party members may delay their initiative until after the dungeoneer has acted in order to benefit from Battle Cry.
| |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/31/2006 12:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by devasque
WoTC tried running a PrC something along these lines in the Song and Silence splat book - Dungeon Delver - if that's the one you're refering to in your header.
Its list of specials went like this;
1) Danger Sense +2/+4 Traps
2) Blindsight 20ft
3) Stonecunning
4) Reduce
5) Darkvision
6) Danger Sense +4/+6
7) Treasure Sense
8) Blindsight 40ft
9) Find the path
10) Phase Door
I'm running a PC along the 'Dungeoneer' flavor currently and whoever said it above, dwarves seem to work best. My PC is an adhoc mix of Ranger/Rogue along with the Archivist class from Heroes of Horror.
What does Danger Sense +2/+4 mean?
Blindsight sounds interesting. I thought of blindsight briefly. I haven't ever read about Dungeon Delvers. I wouldn't want to copy it, so blindsight is likely out. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Username
Warlord
5692 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 1:01 AM |
| | How does this stack up to the extreme explorer (sounds the same, but could be waaay off as I haven't seen the stats, just heard of the class)? | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/31/2006 1:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
How does this stack up to the extreme explorer (sounds the same, but could be waaay off as I haven't seen the stats, just heard of the class)?
Actually, I have no idea. The only classes I have read through are the ones in the PHB, the PHB2, and a couple of others. I think I read through the Mystic (I think it's in the Dragonlance campaign setting). I haven't read any of the other base classes. The only prestige classes I have read about are in the DMG. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 05/31/2006 1:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
I would prefer the core of the class to be good heavy armor combatant that can find traps. The move silently part (works in silence) and evasion can go. The dungeoneer might be able to find and remove traps, but not very mobile at evading them. A clunky dungeoneer with the soot from an explosion comes walking back to the party saying sheepishly, "Uh, well, I took care of the trap."
It would be nice to have some class abilites to with him, since works in silence and evasion are gone.
Okay, gotcha. A fighter in heavy armor disarming traps. Here are a few ideas that come to mind that may or may not be aligned with how you see the dungeoneer, but i'll throw them out there for the sake of discussion.
- DR (or some kind of equivalent) against trap damage.
- ability to lay traps
- ability to use (and maybe make?) exploding grenade-like weapons with oil or alchemist fire or the like (with DR applicable if they blow up while he is equipped with them :) ) with greater efficiency (although i wonder if this would not derive from the initial character concept a bit too much)
- ability to blend in underground or interior surrounding if completely immobile (maybe no armor check penalty if standing still, and +2 bonus to hide if no or light armor?)
- ability to hold ground in tight spots (sort of a defensive stance providing circumstance bonus to AC when surrounded by walls, e.g. in a corridor, or in a door opening or something similar - could require use of a medium or smaller weapon for med-sized creatures)
- some kind of indoor tracking ability
- ability to assess the sturdiness of doors and buildings and other structures
- ability to try to take down or destroy or remove or break or warp or melt or somehow render inoperative a structure such as a door or porticulis or even an entire wall or room (take down the ceiling on opponents) or even an entire structure (a barn or something), given enough time. This would allow him for example to manage destruction of something having a break DC above what he's normally able to destroy. This would require use of tools or other devices (or bombs?).
- ability to find exits from underground or interior structures
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/04/2006 5:39 PM |
| | I'm going out of town for a week on a business trip. I will revise the Dungeoneer and post the revision after returning. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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