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Originally posted by Lab Monkey
... Have wilding clasps been reprinted in any suppliment since the 3.0e Masters of the Wild? I haven't been able to find them in anything from 3.5e.

Thanks for the help.
LM

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

I must say that Vow of Poverty (BoED) is looking very good for druids these days. Instead of loosing all your stuff when wildshaped/shapeshifted, you get to keep the various bonuses to AC, etc.

The Exalted Feats available aren't that great, especially if you play with the Shapeshifting option from PHBII (which eliminates the Animal Companion and Wildshape abilities including corresponding feats). However, exalted feats like Nymph's Kiss, Touch of Golden Ice, and Sanctify Natural Attack are really nice enhancements for druids. Anything else is gravey (Animal Friend, Gift of Faith, etc.).

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Originally posted by dariustad

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

I must say that Vow of Poverty (BoED) is looking very good for druids these days. Instead of loosing all your stuff when wildshaped/shapeshifted, you get to keep the various bonuses to AC, etc.

The Exalted Feats available aren't that great, especially if you play with the Shapeshifting option from PHBII (which eliminates the Animal Companion and Wildshape abilities including corresponding feats). However, exalted feats like Nymph's Kiss, Touch of Golden Ice, and Sanctify Natural Attack are really nice enhancements for druids. Anything else is gravey (Animal Friend, Gift of Faith, etc.).

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The only problem I have with "Touch of Golden Ice" is the low save DC. It does not improve as the character does. As the character climbs in levels, the DC 14 save gets too easy to beat. The best you can do is hope for the occasional 1s. I'd rather invest in a feat with greater returns (feat depends on build).

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Originally posted by glauron

BoED is broken. Monks vows are broken. They should be erratad out of the game.

Now as for dDruid equipment. Say your Druid has a ring of sustenance and a periapt of wisdom. He is L9 so the Periapt gives him an extra L1 and L5 spell. Does he lose a L1 andf a L5 spell when he wildshapes? Does he get them back when he returns to humanoid shape? Does he have to wait a week for his ring of sustenance benefits to kick in again?

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Originally posted by Teflon Jeff

Vow of Poverty is broken, but also easy enough to reign in by a competent DM.

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

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Originally posted by Teflon Jeff

Vow of Poverty is broken, but also easy enough to reign in by a competent DM.

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Care to elaborate on how you feel it's broken?

It's great for a monk and not bad for a druid or sorcerer. The spellcasters though really miss out on not being able to use scrolls, staffs, wands, etc.

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Originally posted by Malin Lug

The Vow of poverty is way over powered for a feat and a life style. It is a power gamers delight. The bonuses that it gives you are way beyond the magic items you should be able to get at the equivalent level. There is not a GM that I know that would allow that feat in a game. I don't have the book in front of me, but I tested it with a monk and could just walk through anything of an appropriate challenge rating.

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

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Originally posted by Malin Lug

The Vow of poverty is way over powered for a feat and a life style. It is a power gamers delight. The bonuses that it gives you are way beyond the magic items you should be able to get at the equivalent level. There is not a GM that I know that would allow that feat in a game. I don't have the book in front of me, but I tested it with a monk and could just walk through anything of an appropriate challenge rating.

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Personally, I don't see it as broken, although I do freely admit that I've never seen it in play.

However, to test your assertion lets look at what you get vs. the magic item's cost. I picked a random level (10th) and calculated what a 10th level character would have in items vs. what they get as a result of Vow of Poverty:

An average 10th level character has 49,000 gp in items.

A vow of Poverty Druid would have:
+7 armor (+2 Dragonhide Breastplate costs around 4,350+ cost of dragonhide)
+2 weapon (8000gp)
mind shielding (8000gp as a ring)
resistance +1 (1000gp)
sustenance (2500gp as ring)
deflection +1 (2000gp as ring- ok we're out of ring slots, but a skilled player can probably suffle this around without additional cost)
+2 enhancement to 1 stat (4000gp)

Total value: 31,850gp
Plus these that I didn't know how to quantify or didn't take the time to quantify the value of:
damage reduction 5/magic (this one is nice)
Up to 6 exalted feats (which aren't really that great, but they are 6 additional abilities) (not that you get fewer exalted feats if you don't get in at first level as a human)
endure elements (pretty worthless)

With the feats the Vow of Poverty character is probably slightly ahead, especially so if you allow all these abilites to work when wildshaped/shapeshifted. Still, it comes with some significant restrictions, the biggest being that you don't get to select any of your gear (no iterative bonuses to abilities, no staffs, no scrolls, no metamagic rods, no selecting the best ring or wondrous item, etc.). Less freedom in D&D generally equates to a lower value. With that in mind, I don't find it to be so far over the top.

Note that I didn't go through any other levels, so the disparity between what you would have vs. what you get might be greater at other points in character advancement.

Also note that the disparity may be greater for a monk that draws all of his armor bonus to AC from an item like bracers of armor which have a higher overall cost than enhanced armor for the same total AC bonus.

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Originally posted by AesophDarkfable

Vow of Poverty and Druid work very well together I feel, Vow of Poverty allows a quarterstaff and druid has plenty of nice spells to ramp up the Staff (Shilleagh and Brambles/Spikes are great) and they can even do quite well out of wildshape that way.

I had a super broken one, but it was using the Druid alternate from Unearthed Aracana that loses wildshape and some druid abilities for favored enemy and monk AC/speed bonus. It was quite sick... now that said I think the class + vow was worse than either on its own, id like to play a vow character with a standard class sometime as a test.

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Originally posted by Malin Lug
You forgot a few things... like the advancement to stats. At tenth level I believe it was +6, +4, and +2. Also the Exhalted feats are far from worthless. Once again, I don't have the book in front of me, but the feat that allows your unarmed attacks to be good aligned then the one that allows your unarmed attacks to be a holy weapon (I don't think a monk can get that until 12th level if I am right though.) Now all of the sudden you got over the monk's weakness of not being to overly effective against demons and devils. It is one of the most broken things in any of the books. Once again, that is entirely just my opinion and some DM's may just say no big deal. If you are playing in a very high magic game where a tenth level character has a +5 holy avenger... then vow of poverty is not broken, but in a normal campaign setting or a low magic setting, it is way to overpowered.

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Originally posted by Malin Lug

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Originally posted by Lab Monkey

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Originally posted by Teflon Jeff

Vow of Poverty is broken, but also easy enough to reign in by a competent DM.

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Care to elaborate on how you feel it's broken?

It's great for a monk and not bad for a druid or sorcerer. The spellcasters though really miss out on not being able to use scrolls, staffs, wands, etc.

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The Vow of poverty is way over powered for a feat and a life style. It is a power gamers delight. The bonuses that it gives you are way beyond the magic items you should be able to get at the equivalent level. There is not a GM that I know that would allow that feat in a game. I don't have the book in front of me, but I tested it with a monk and could just walk through anything of an appropriate challenge rating.

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