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Wayne Underboss
 1371 Posts




 | | 06/18/2006 11:06 AM |
| I would swear that there's a rule that is something to the effect of a creature not receiving the benefit of cover if the blocking creature is two or more size categories smaller. I can't find the rules, if it exists.
It's possblle that I'm conflating the rule with another, or (more likely) that it was a rule in 3.0 that was changed in 3.5.
Anybody heard of such a rule and know where to locate it (or not)? | | Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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| Benimoto Underboss
 1125 Posts




 | | 06/18/2006 11:28 AM |
| I swear I read that rule once too, though it's not in any of my 3.5 books, that I've found.
There's a somewhat similar rule on shooting or throwing into a melee. PHB page 140 mentions that "If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character." | | Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
|  jgsugden Commander
 4320 Posts



 Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 06/18/2006 11:29 AM |
| The low obstacles rule could be what you're thinking about (PHB pg 151).quote: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.
A creature 2 sizes smaller than the (missile) attacker would likely be a 'low' obstacle. Accordingly, you can ignore a blocking creature (or object) for purposes of cover in missile combat or melee reach combat if the blocking creature is less than half the height of the target and is closer to you than to the target.
However, I am not aware of a rule that negates cover when the blocking creature is closer to the target and is 2 sizes smaller. AFAIK, if a halfling is standing next to a hill giant and is between you and the hill giant, the hill giant gets cover from your missile attack. | | Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13069 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 06/18/2006 2:42 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by jgsugden
AFAIK, if a halfling is standing next to a hill giant and is between you and the hill giant, the hill giant gets cover from your missile attack.
Yeah, I believe that's how it works and it makes no sense whatsoever. | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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|  jgsugden Commander
 4320 Posts



 Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 06/18/2006 4:48 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by Ghendar
quote: Originally posted by jgsugden
AFAIK, if a halfling is standing next to a hill giant and is between you and the hill giant, the hill giant gets cover from your missile attack.
Yeah, I believe that's how it works and it makes no sense whatsoever.
Technically, I see no rule that says that fine creatures do not grant cover... play that your hill giant doesn't have fleas, because they can give him cover! | | Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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| madda Sergeant
 714 Posts




 | | 06/18/2006 6:10 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by jgsugden
quote: Originally posted by Ghendar
quote: Originally posted by jgsugden
AFAIK, if a halfling is standing next to a hill giant and is between you and the hill giant, the hill giant gets cover from your missile attack.
Yeah, I believe that's how it works and it makes no sense whatsoever.
Technically, I see no rule that says that fine creatures do not grant cover... play that your hill giant doesn't have fleas, because they can give him cover!
It's just a model and it's far from perfect. You can always house rule stuff you don't like. Using the same creatures, you can shot a flea behind a hill giant with only +4 to cover. How logical is this ? It's not! As the DM rule that you can't shoot at it and that the hill giant does not get cover from fleas. If your players complain, explain after the game your rational. | | Champion of Cockatrices. I wish I never wished a wand of wishing. (Wishful thinking.) Join the Eternal Campaign! Chat about miniatures. | |
|  jgsugden Commander
 4320 Posts



 Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 06/18/2006 6:36 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by madda ...Using the same creatures, you can shot a flea behind a hill giant with only +4 to cover. How logical is this ? It's not!...
Actually, you can't. PHB pg 139: quote: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maxmimum range and in line of sight.
A flea behind a hill giant is not within line of sight unless some part of the flea is visible behind the hill giant... which is technically possible, but I don't think that is what you were getting at... However, if a hill giant does block only part of the view of the flea, a cover bonus would be appropriate, although I can't imagine ever seeing a situation where that disparity in size and exact angling was found...
The ranged rules are very rough, and (as you mentioned) work best with a little manipulation. | | Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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| nyjastul69 Commander
 2731 Posts



 Rhode Island
 | | 06/18/2006 6:42 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by jgsugden: A flea behind a hill giant is not within line of sight unless some part of the flea is visible behind the hill giant..
But in 3.x, creatures don't block LOS... ummm... sorry, it had to be said. [:p][}:)] | |
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|  jgsugden Commander
 4320 Posts



 Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 06/19/2006 1:55 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by nyjastul69 ...But in 3.x, creatures don't block LOS... ummm... sorry, it had to be said. [:p][}:)]
Really? I was unaware that there was any such rule. Could you point me to it?
This is not to imply that having a fine creature between your medium PC and a huge opponent would block the LOS to the opponent. It is just to say that, AFAIK, common sense applies, and a fine opponent can hide behind a huge creature if that huge creature is not moving, etc... | | Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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| Benimoto Underboss
 1125 Posts




 | | 06/19/2006 2:03 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by jgsugden
quote: Originally posted by nyjastul69 ...But in 3.x, creatures don't block LOS... ummm... sorry, it had to be said. [:p][}:)]
Really? I was unaware that there was any such rule. Could you point me to it?
Just playing devil's advocate ([}:)]) here, but it's implicit in the glossary definition of line of sight.
quote: From http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_lineofsight Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight. If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's.
Only squares can block line of sight. [:)]
EDIT: Hmm... only squares or not being able to see the creature. And I suppose whether your character could see a gnat behind a giant would be up to the DMs discretion. Maybe you do have something there. Touche, jgsudgen. | | Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
| reezel Sergeant
 555 Posts




 | | 06/19/2006 3:16 PM |
| Big Creatures and Cover Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
The halfling case here would not offer cover because A)He can only cover one square and more importantly B)Large creatures are a cube(2 squares tall) thus meaning the upper squares wouldn't be blocked by an adjacent small creature. | | Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
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|  jgsugden Commander
 4320 Posts



 Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 06/19/2006 3:42 PM |
| quote: Originally posted by reezel
Big Creatures and Cover Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
The halfling case here would not offer cover because A)He can only cover one square and more importantly B)Large creatures are a cube(2 squares tall) thus meaning the upper squares wouldn't be blocked by an adjacent small creature.
Those are melee cover rules... the rules are different for ranged attacks. | | Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06) Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt. BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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