thom
Sergeant
472 Posts
    
 | | 06/22/2006 10:11 AM |
| OK, so one of my PCs wants to buy a scroll of Magic Missile, only he wants it maximized! So we add 3 levels to the spell and it's now a 4th level spell. Which requires a 7th level Wizard to cast.
So...the question is:how many magic missiles are in the spell?
a) 4 because it's being cast by a 7th level caster, which means that the spell does 20 points of damage?
b) just one, and it does 5 points of damage...
I favor a, but some of my PCs are arguing for b (they must be jealous of the sorcerer)[}:)] Any opinions/advice would be appreciated!
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 12:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by thom
a) 4 because it's being cast by a 7th level caster, which means that the spell does 20 points of damage?
A is correct. for 20 damage. little costly for a 4th level spell.
for 200 more you could get it to do 25 (4x9x25) [:)] | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 12:38 PM |
| Or for 50 GP more you could just get a wand of magic missles that could do d4 + 1 50 times.
There are very few spells that maximized is really worth it on a scroll. If they are really set on that, then empower is actually better for scroll work.
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 1:47 PM |
| Get a scroll of empowered scorching ray instead. Two beams that deal 4d6 x 1.5 each, the equivalent of 12d6 damage. Even if you miss one of the touch attacks it'll still do more than the maximized missiles.
FOr reference, scrolls are by default assumed to be cast at the minimum level required to cast the spell. In this case, that's 7th level. A 7th level wizard's magic missile spell fires four magic missiles, regardless of what metamagic effects are thrown on top of it. Truth be told, magic missile isn't the best target for metamagic. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 6:35 PM |
| It is entirely dependent on the caster level of the scroll. Remember, you can scribe scrolls at a lower caster level than you are.
A scroll of maximized magic missile could do anywhere from 5 to 25 points of damage, and the cost would be dependent on the caster level it was scribed at. | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 06/22/2006 6:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
It is entirely dependent on the caster level of the scroll. Remember, you can scribe scrolls at a lower caster level than you are.
A scroll of maximized magic missile could do anywhere from 5 to 25 points of damage, and the cost would be dependent on the caster level it was scribed at.
yes you can lower the caster level of the scroll, but not below the minimum to cast he spell. The lowest caster level to cast a maximized magic missile is still 7th. 4 missles at 5 each. | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/22/2006 7:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
Truth be told, magic missile isn't the best target for metamagic.
I'm somewhat partial to Innate Spell for Magic Missile. Give up a 9th-level spell slot for unlimited magic missiles? Good stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by spikegif
yes you can lower the caster level of the scroll, but not below the minimum to cast he spell. The lowest caster level to cast a maximized magic missile is still 7th. 4 missles at 5 each.
This is correct. A maximized Magic Missile cannot be lowered below caster level 7. Empowered is a much better choice, although I'd personally get a wand or a scroll with a better spell (Phantasmal Killer is insta-death on a failed save, 3d6 damage on a succesful save and it's a 4th-level spell).
As far as Magic Missile wands, you're generally better off picking up a better wand of magic missiles (7th-level caster, 10 charges, 1050gp, roughly 160 ave/200 max damage) than a standard wand of magic missiles (1st-level caster, 50 charges, 750gp, 150 ave/250 max damage), unless you're still rather low-level. | |
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thom
Sergeant
472 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 9:01 AM |
| Thanks for all the great answers, guys! Glad to know my first instincts were right, and y'all also gave me some great ideas for my future bad guys! [}:)]
The PC is a sorcerer who loves Magic Missile btw, so who am I to argue with him?[)] | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 10:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
Truth be told, magic missile isn't the best target for metamagic.
I'm somewhat partial to Innate Spell for Magic Missile. Give up a 9th-level spell slot for unlimited magic missiles? Good stuff.
I've thought about that as well. However, giving up 4 feats just to do it probably isn't the best idea. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 12:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
Truth be told, magic missile isn't the best target for metamagic.
I'm somewhat partial to Innate Spell for Magic Missile. Give up a 9th-level spell slot for unlimited magic missiles? Good stuff.
Magic missle is an awesome combat spell for a low level caster. But by the time you are an Archmage... I can't really see waisting a round to cast magic missle. You have so many spells and so many spells per day... I can't think of a situation where you would have to fall back on magic missle. Now if you also burnt a feat on "Quicken Spell Like Abitlity" that would be a different story.[}:)] | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/23/2006 1:17 PM |
| | I've always house-ruled it to work as a free action (1/round). You're blowing 4 feats (one of which is quicken spell) and a 9th-level spell slot, and the highest level spell you can use is 1st. Might as well get some mileage out of your vast expenditure (since every one of those metagmagic feats is an item creation feat that couldn't be taken). | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 3:33 PM |
| Hmm, well, I'm not going to say that your house rule in unbalanced, Zenthrus, but I am goign to say that it does sorta prove my point that magic missiles just don't provide much of a target for metamagic- if you have to tack on a quicken feat to make it workable, then it just doesn't work all that well.
The best use out of them I can see is at 9th to 11th level, where you can quicken them and the return on empowered third level spells isn't all THAT impressive (empowering a fireball gives it about as much extra damage potential as five magic missiles, so it trades its area effect for no saving throw required). Still, even then I'd probably use the empowered fireball.
Magic missile is a fabulous 1st level spell that retains a high degree of usefulness throughout your career, but its damage cap is just too low to make it a good spell for metamagic. | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/23/2006 4:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
Hmm, well, I'm not going to say that your house rule in unbalanced
By 17th level spellcasters are typically already rather unbalanced. My campaigns rarely make it that high and when they do, our group has found that a quickened magic missile every round is nowhere near as potent as a time stop or meteor swarm [:D]
quote:
Magic missile is a fabulous 1st level spell that retains a high degree of usefulness throughout your career, but its damage cap is just too low to make it a good spell for metamagic.
Couldn't agree more. That's why Innate Spell is kind of a silly feat. 4 feats as reqs, give up a time stop, and gain a 1st-level spell? Silly. Get an extra magic missile a round during combat? Cheesy, but hardly broken (especially considering the ease with which magic missile is avoided--i.e. shield spell/brooch of shielding). | |
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