Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
    
 | | 06/23/2006 11:08 AM |
| So, my two young sons asked me today this question:
how much money would a crowd pay to watch me fight a monster? Turns out they think the sorcerer should cast summon monster and have the fighter take it on in a town - all to make some money.
Would you consider summoning a monster just to kill it evil? | |
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Zenako
Commander
3468 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 11:29 AM |
| I guess it depends on some things. Where do those monsters come from?, would you kill the monster if you just happened across it in the wild?, is the nature of the monster itself evil?, is taking bounties for killing monsters or humanoids evil?
What would be the difference between summoing an Owlbear to fight in an arena and catching one and bringing it into town to then fight. The owlbear presumeably ends up dead either way.
Is killing things evil? Not intrinsically in most societies, but it can be in some.
As for how to handle the question, are the characters advanced in level, are they thinking of bringing in monsters that have any chance of defeating the fighter? If the monster could win, it might make a good example to have it win, kill the fighter and have the other PC's have to bail out the situation. Either they lose the fighter or all the proceeds in getting him raised. If the battle is so lopsided that there is no risk of loss to the fighter, then the customers are not likely to pay much to see such a mismatch. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 11:36 AM |
| What kind of gaming table are you building, btw?
Something about calling a monster to you to kill it seems more wrong to me than killing something that you come across that is trying to kill you.
They just want to make more gold pieces because they are 1st and 2nd level and need the money to buy stuff (they've played D&D 3 times in their life now). | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 06/23/2006 12:05 PM |
| In my opinion, what makes killing something an evil act is when it is done without necessity. Regardless of whether the creature is inherently evil or not, it is wrong to kill it unless it clearly has intentions of harming/killing someone.
If a creature is a confirmed threat to people in the area, it's death can be justified. If the creature was not there to threaten anybody untl the caster summoned it to the area, there was no reason for it to be summoned in the first place, and no reason for it to be killed. I'd say that's a pretty evil sport.
But then, who says the arena/town has to be worried about that? That can be a good quest for a good alighned group - to be placed in a situation where they have to choose whether or not do something against their morals.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 12:15 PM |
| There are rules in the Unearthed Arcana that talk about Summon Monster. In one game that we played in, you only had so many things on the list that were appropriate to your alignment (a lawful good cleric is not going to summon a demon.) You also summoned the exact same creatures every time, very usefull if you summon it and send it out, then summon it again to find out what it saw. The only problem would be that everything you summoned had a memmory, and if all you did was summon a creature to have your buddy beat it up and kill it... then it would start to resist the summons.
The other thing to think about... for a first level caster, summon monster doesn't last very long. I could see your party getting pelted with rotten fruit for short changing a crowd of a show. How much would you pay to watch a fight that lasted 6 seconds? | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 12:45 PM |
| IIRC, you can't actually kill a Summoned monster--when it "dies" or the spell expires, it simply returns to its home plane, maybe a bit cranky but otherwise unharmed. So in the situation you've described, all of the risk would be on the fighter; the Summoned monster loses nothing except a bit of its leisure time.
Having said that, the question then becomes, "Does a Summoned monster feel pain?" If so, we're talking about inflicting pain on a living being (possibly evil, possibly not, depending on what the Sorcerer whistles up) for monetary gain. I don't think I'd consider that a "good" act, so perhaps over time the party's alignment would start to drift. . .
Also, someone in the audience with magical training/familiarity might also recognize the monster as Summoned, in which case the fighter might have to deal with cries of "fraud" and rotten fruit in addition to the actual combat.
Cheers,
Dagonet | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 12:47 PM |
| The other option is to summon two monster and have them fight. AKA Pokemon. [:p]
Of course it is evil and cruel. You are summoning a living creature for the sole purpose of killing it in a painful way. So what is the problem. [}:)]
I suppose if you want to disney up your game. [V]
An expection could be if the monsters are not real. I always thought of summoned monsters as only existing will summoned. In that case I would not consider it good, but I doubt it would be evil. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 1:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
In my opinion, what makes killing something an evil act is when it is done without necessity. Regardless of whether the creature is inherently evil or not, it is wrong to kill it unless it clearly has intentions of harming/killing someone.
I would say this is true, with the qualifier that this is true only when the other combatant doesn't agree to fight. In the case of a duel it would be neither good nor evil. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4909 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/23/2006 2:20 PM |
| I've always been a fan of ruling that the critter you summon is the same critter. The looks of reproach from Formian Workers is priceless [:D]
I would consider the act of killing for profit to be evil. Judging by the evil-alignment requirement of the Assassin PrC, I'd guess that the design team would also consider killing for profit to be evil.
Granted, a large number of 'let's go explore yon dungeon' romps are motivated purely by the PC's desire for more gold, so it's a little sticky.
Best way around this...have the fighter fight the sorcerer for sport. No pulled punches. The the sorcerer is summoning monsters to fight in his defense, rather than just to satiate a crowd's bloodlust. They could certainly have caveats, such as 'stop fighting when one person is unconscious.' PCs agreeing to battle each other fairly hardly seems evil to me (stupidfoolish maybe...).
For the record, a crowd will pay unreasonable sums to watch bloodsport. Rome had its Colliseum. We have Madison Square Garden. WWE stock value shot into the billions the day it went public. People are always willing to pay for a good show. Bloody combat makes for a good show. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 2:37 PM |
| Reminds me of the OotS that was in Dragon a month or two ago where they summoned a celestial that was about to discover the cure for the universe's ills - one of the characters asked if this was "right" and V said it was just a monster, or something like that.
I've decided that I will warn them that this could be considered an evil act by some people, and that the entire group should discuss it. One of the reasons I think role playing is GOOD for children, is just this type of situation. | |
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Ethandrul
Warrior
301 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 2:42 PM |
| I kinda like to think that summoned monsters are non existant until created- and they return to the nothingness when destroyed.
Of course I use this arguement because I have been known to have my druid summon animals so he had the other half of a lightning arc spell... if the spell actually creates killable animals- it would be evil regardless of the creature summoned. - even if now real harm was done to the beast in the long run. forcing 5 dire badgers to form a wall against a rushing horde- so you can have 1 more round to prep a fire ball...yeah- thats evil, the badgers are going to suffer from severe emotional scarring. | |
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6690 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/23/2006 2:54 PM |
| I would say that gladiator activity is evil--whether the creature is summoned or captured.
It is one thing to fight in self defense when exploring. It's another to bring the captured creature--or to summon a creature--and fight it for profit. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3157 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 3:05 PM |
| In my world, summoning critters for combat is viewed in pretty much the same way as cockfighting is in our world -- most look upon as cruel and crass "entertainment" that has no place in proper society. Now I'm sure that an evil empire would see it as a fun form of execution -- summoning progressively tougher monsters until the prisoner is overwhelmed to the delight of the masses.
Now there is a school of thought that summoned monsters are simply magical constructs and not "real." This is what my Conjuror is moving towards doing when other members of the party balk at her summoning an evil outsider. I mean, this little exchange certainly didn't help:
(Summons a Lemure)
Party member: What is that thing?
Conjuror: It's a damned soul from Hell. It's only relief from its eternal torment is in combat and inflicting pain on others. Why are you looking at me like that?
The whole "Well, if we summon it to fight evil, that could help redeem it right?" argument didn't go over well either...
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 3:11 PM |
| | If summoning is somewhat inherently evil, how do you deal with the druid's ability to cast summon animal, or whatever. Isn't that now spontaneous for them? If you take that away, what do you replace it with? | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 3:14 PM |
| I've always assumed that the Summon spells worked a lot like Astral Projection, creating new bodies (from local materials) for whatever critter appears--the bodies then disperse when the creature is slain or the spell expires.
Anyone remember those goofy 1E/2E rules for Summoning, where the spell created an irresistably shiny object on the target's home plane, and when somebody grabbed said shiny object, it yoinked the toucher to the caster's side?
Cheers,
Dagonet | |
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Ethandrul
Warrior
301 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 7:38 AM |
| | spontanious casting isn't evil if the animals didnt exist before they were summoned. besides- druids aren't necessarily a good class. it solves alot of moral arguements to just assume that the critters arent real. | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 8:09 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dagonet
Anyone remember those goofy 1E/2E rules for Summoning, where the spell created an irresistably shiny object on the target's home plane, and when somebody grabbed said shiny object, it yoinked the toucher to the caster's side?
Spellcrystals. They didn't work exactly like that (at least in Planescape). What they did was fly at a great speed towards the nearest suitable target, and then shatter upon hitting the target, transporting him to the caster. It was theoretically possible (if very difficult) to trap spellcrystals before they found their target, and then unleash them on unsuspecting foes. There was even a creature that ate spellcrystals (and only spellcrystals) as its diet. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10359 Posts
United States
| | 06/25/2006 9:53 AM |
| I think that killing a summoned monster is on par with "killing" a robot dog, or "killing" a cartoon character. Since, as per the PHB, killing a summoned creature doesn't really kill it, I don't see that the same moral rules apply. If killing something doesn't kill, then we're on a different moral plane (the issue of causing pain is still relevant, don't get me wrong).
One of the things that makes killing evil is its irreversibility. A killed summoned creature "comes back to life," as it were, so the evil part of the consequences is different.
Now, to the issue of whether summoning something, in order to kill it, is a form of intentional evil, that depends. Is the summoner doing this for entertainment? Is the summoned being entirely denied the freedom to be summoned? These kinds of questions can push the issue right back into immorality.
On the third hand, I'd think that summoning a creature just so it can block the approaching ogre, and having it die at some other being's hands isn't much morally superior to summoning it and killing it yourself.
These kinds of questions always get so sticky.
Dave | |
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kyrin
Commander
3157 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 11:35 AM |
| Since the critters summoned by Summon Monster # are fiendish, celestial and otherwise outsiders, one could argue that being summoned to advance the cause of good/evil is their very reason for existence. Which raises all sorts of philosophical issues.
For example, if you summon a Vrock to fight an evil dragon or a powerful devil, is that an evil act, since you have summoned a denizen of the Abyss, or is it a good act, since you are leading to to downfall of a great evil? Discuss.
What if you summon a Quasit to get a little child's cat out of a tree? Good, or evil?
What if you summon a group of Celestial Monkeys to open some chests, knowing that the chests are trapped with horrible traps? I mean, one monkey was burned, driven insane, and stung by summoned fiendish wasps! Should my conjuror feel bad about that? It was some nice treasure, that is being used to advance the cause of Good, really it is!
Geez, I thought playing a conjuror would be fun, not a course in Ethics 101...
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Ethandrul
Warrior
301 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 3:56 PM |
| | look- summoned creatures are not real- so summon away. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3905 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/26/2006 7:11 AM |
| Then there's the whole summoning something to go see if the doors trapped.
Most games, I`ve had summon creatures being pulled from thier planes... ie they are 'real', remeber how they are treated, but may not the next one summoned. (Use of a being's true name rumoured to get the one you want).
Druids grab from the beast lands :)
Doing it (summon for $$) for blood sport seems callous. Unless it was intelligent enough to agree :/. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10359 Posts
United States
| | 06/26/2006 1:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
What if you summon a Quasit to get a little child's cat out of a tree? Good, or evil?
How tasty is the cat? I mean, if with the right seasonings it's absolutely scrumptious, then, well, we can send the little child running home before we turn on the grill . . . .
Dave | |
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My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 06/27/2006 2:05 PM |
| For all future campaigns, I am imposing a rule that will require you to collect a truename of a creature before you can summon it. To keep it from being a huge burden, I'll make sure that thee is a small market for truenames for extraplanar entities. However, making the PCs keep track of the names may provide some incentive for players to provide the summoned monsters with some respect...
It is one thing to summon some nameless beast and force it to be slashed by a sword. It is quite another to summon Bob and have him get slashed by a sword. | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 3:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
For all future campaigns, I am imposing a rule that will require you to collect a truename of a creature before you can summon it. To keep it from being a huge burden, I'll make sure that thee is a small market for truenames for extraplanar entities. However, making the PCs keep track of the names may provide some incentive for players to provide the summoned monsters with some respect...
It is one thing to summon some nameless beast and force it to be slashed by a sword. It is quite another to summon Bob and have him get slashed by a sword.
And if the PC/player misremembers or mispronounces the truename, perhaps something else will show up. . . | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 3:34 PM |
| When a summoned creature (any creature brought into play via a spell with the "summoning" descriptor) is killed, they are returned to their home plan very much alive.
When a called creature (any creature brought into play via a spell with the "calling" descriptor) is killed, they are physically dead regardless of location.
If you call in a Solar and then lop of its head, it is physically dead.
If you summon the same Solar and lop its head off, it returns to its home plane. Probably very much pissed off that you'd have the audacity to summon, then kill it.
Summons are temporary. Calls are permanent. | |
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mordulin
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 9:47 AM |
| Interesting debate, personally I would not consider it an evil act to summon a monster to fight, seeing how it has a mind of its own and won't just stand there to let the fighter kill it. Now if you combine it with a spell so that it can't fight back then that would most certainly be Evil. Personally I am a fan of the unique summon variant rule, where you summon the same creature everytime. My cleric I used to play had named all of his "friends" that he could summon. Nothing quite like calling forth Mrs. Wellington instead of a regular celestial badger. As to the question of making money off the fight, as a DM I would say that the characters could only make money off of the fight if it was a battle between the sorcerer and the fighter. I'd rule they'd need to roleplay getting permission from the local law and would charge them a fee for a permit to conduct such a battle and they would have to use non-lethal force.
To determine how much money they make off their fights, I would have them make perform(acting) checks instead of conducting it like a normal battle. After all if they are going to give the crowd a fight worth paying for they'd need to drag it out. One player would be aiding the other and I'd allow them to make it untrained. However, I'd start applying a cumulative penalty of -2 per week to the check if they stay in the same town and aren't gaining levels as the crowd becomes bored with the same show done over and over again. | |
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