Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
    
 | | 07/13/2006 5:16 PM |
| This jsut occured to me last night.
Assume a party of four 4th level PCs. A balanced and appropriate encounter for that party is EL 4 and the party itself consistutes and EL 8 encounter. Now imagine 2 identical parties meet in combat (we'll call them A and B to keep it clear).
The EL system asumes that party A - and EL 8 encounter - is too powerful for party B and that party B - also an EL 8 encounter - is too powerful for party A. Essentially it says that each party is both too weak to handle the other party and too strong for the other party to handle.
Does anyone else find that...odd? | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 07/13/2006 5:27 PM |
| EL + 4 is a tough but winnable (under the right circumstances) fight.
If Party A ambushes Party B, then Party A has probably affected the odds in their favor. Decreasing the EL of Party B, while increasing their own EL.
Yes, it is odd, but all we can hope is that CR (along with a multitude of other problems in 3.5) will be fixed when 4.0 comes along. | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 07/13/2006 5:39 PM |
| | CR is certainly something that could use fine tuning in a new edition, pretty much the only thing I can really think of off the top of my head. More magic than Science it's ways are mysterious ones. [:p] | | | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 07/13/2006 5:49 PM |
| CR in and of itself isn't really a perfect "gospel" on which monsters are appropriate for which encounters.
Take Magma Hurlers, for example. For a CR 3, they do a LOT of damage when their attacks hit. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 07/13/2006 6:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
CR is certainly something that could use fine tuning in a new edition, pretty much the only thing I can really think of off the top of my head. More magic than Science it's ways are mysterious ones. [:p]
What? Turn Undead didn't jump out at you? | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
Vindicated Called Shots: Blood Wars - Solar
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 07/13/2006 6:32 PM |
| Heres a quote for the DMG 3.5
quote:
An Encounter Level (EL) equal to the PC's level is one that should expend about 20% of their resources - hit points, spells, magic item uses, and so on. This means, on average, that after about four encounters of the party's level the PCs need to rest, heal, and regain spells. A fifth encounter will probably wipe them out...
..., an encounter of even one or two levels higher than the party level might tax the PC's to their limit, although with luck they might be able to take on two such encounters before needing to recover. Remember that when the EL is higher than the party's level, the chance for PC fatality rises dramatically.
By following the above, then a party of 4th level characters taking on another party of 4th level characters SHOULD be 4 levels higher than the party level in terms of what the EL should be.
Party A taking on Party B is a toss up. They are equally matched and therefore have a 50/50 chance of winning the fight. And even if they do win there is probaly a 90% chance at least one of them died in the fight.
An EL equal to the party is not supposed to be an even fight. Its supposed to be a challange that the party should be able to defeat so the game doesnt end with a TPK. | |
Champion of the Skulk
Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/13/2006 7:30 PM |
| Dooku points out the main issue, which is that a +4 encounter is at *best* a 50/50 situation for the entire party to die, which makes sense given the parties are equal. The EL system is built so you will *avoid* over-challenging the party, and throwing an encounter that they only have a 50% chance to live through certainly qualifies as something you should avoid, IMO.
Also note that unless you're giving NPCs the full value of NPC gear as outlined by the DMG, and even in many cases when you are, characters with NPC classes tend to be weaker than regular monsters at most CRs.
The classic example would be 7th level fighter (CR 7) and hill giant (also CR 7.) | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 07/14/2006 12:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lachlarlan_the_Mad
quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
CR is certainly something that could use fine tuning in a new edition, pretty much the only thing I can really think of off the top of my head. More magic than Science it's ways are mysterious ones. [:p]
What? Turn Undead didn't jump out at you?
I can't say I have any big issues with Turn Undead. What's the problem there? | | | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 3:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
I can't say I have any big issues with Turn Undead. What's the problem there?
It's based on hit die rather than the actual potency of the monster. So a zombie with massive hit die is harder to turn than a lich. There are a number of other slightly buggy issues, but that's the biggest one. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 07/14/2006 8:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
I can't say I have any big issues with Turn Undead. What's the problem there?
It's based on hit die rather than the actual potency of the monster. So a zombie with massive hit die is harder to turn than a lich. There are a number of other slightly buggy issues, but that's the biggest one.
But that gets modified with Turn Resistance. I don't see that as being a big problem that a creative DM can't get around easily enough with situational modifiers. | | | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 9:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
quote:
Originally posted by Lachlarlan_the_Mad
quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
CR is certainly something that could use fine tuning in a new edition, pretty much the only thing I can really think of off the top of my head. More magic than Science it's ways are mysterious ones. [:p]
What? Turn Undead didn't jump out at you?
I can't say I have any big issues with Turn Undead. What's the problem there?
The fact that it is nigh worthless at higher APLs (Average Party Level).
Many of the undead I have looked at have Hit Dice that double their CR's. When a 10th level Cleric has absolutly no chance of turning (let alone destroying) an undead appropriate to their APL, there's a problem.
The only saving graces, IMHO, for Turn Undead are Divine Spell Power and Divine Metamagic. Without one of those two feats, a cleric's ONLY standard class feature (I don't consider domain powers or spells as class features because they widly vary) is usually wasted.
As an example, check out the Blaspheme from Libris Mortis. CR 9 undead, 18 hit dice. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
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Aberrations 60/60, Deathknell 60/60, Angelfire 60/60, Underdark 60/60, Wardrums 60/60, WotDQ 60/60 | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 9:54 AM |
| I also forgot that the system unfairly favors clerics that Rebuke/Command undead as well.
Why waste your time Rebuking undead for minions when you can cast Control Undead instead. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
Vindicated Called Shots: Blood Wars - Solar
Aberrations 60/60, Deathknell 60/60, Angelfire 60/60, Underdark 60/60, Wardrums 60/60, WotDQ 60/60 | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 12:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
This jsut occured to me last night.
The EL system asumes that party A - and EL 8 encounter - is too powerful for party B and that party B - also an EL 8 encounter - is too powerful for party A. Essentially it says that each party is both too weak to handle the other party and too strong for the other party to handle.
Does anyone else find that...odd?
The CR system isn't for balancing two groups for a fight. Its about resources. Its assumed that a party of 4 4th level characters will use up 1/8th or so of their expendable resources (spells, HP, healing for a day) when facing a CR 4. 1/4th with a CR 5, 1/2 with a CR 6 and most with a CR 7 or higher. That actually works perfectly with your example. Two 4th level parties facing off should have to use all their resources and have a very close match up to win. Just like a 4th level party would against any other CR 8.
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/14/2006 1:09 PM |
| | Go away, 4th edition. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 07/14/2006 1:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
But that gets modified with Turn Resistance. I don't see that as being a big problem that a creative DM can't get around easily enough with situational modifiers.
I hear what you're saying but I disagree that I, as a creative DM, should be able to get around this problem. I shouldn't have to. WoTC created the turn undead mechanic not me, and they should be responsible for fixing it.
Getting back to the CR question, I had no issue back in 1st/2nd ED with just coming up with appropriate challenges for PC parties without this CR/EL system that 3rd ED introduced.
But I'm just a bitter old grognard, so what the hell do I know. [:D]
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WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 07/14/2006 1:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
Go away, 4th edition.
Hear Hear!!! | |
Champion of the Skulk
Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 3:54 PM |
| | Are there actually people who promote the idea of fourth edition? That's like the villagers who volunteer to be slaves to the vampire overlord. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 4:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by delguidance
Are there actually people who promote the idea of fourth edition? That's like the villagers who volunteer to be slaves to the vampire overlord.
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see it for a long time, but when it comes out, these are the things that I want fixed. | |
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Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 5:22 PM |
| I didn't use a CR level during 1st and 2nd edition... and I don't use it now.
I just ignore that section. I know what my group of players / characters can handle... a mathematical forumla can't possibly know.
Too many things to take into consideration. What items / magic items do they have? what class combination do they have (four fighters have a lot harder time with somethings than do a party of mage, thief, cleric, fighter)? etc etc
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Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 6:44 PM |
| This is a wonderful analysis of why Turn Undead is wonky, by Skip Williams: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/turningundead.html
His other rants on that site are pretty good. I wish he'd do more of them. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/14/2006 7:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
I didn't use a CR level during 1st and 2nd edition... and I don't use it now.
I just ignore that section. I know what my group of players / characters can handle... a mathematical forumla can't possibly know.
Too many things to take into consideration. What items / magic items do they have? what class combination do they have (four fighters have a lot harder time with somethings than do a party of mage, thief, cleric, fighter)? etc etc
This only works if you also discard the XP system as written. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 7:44 PM |
| *slightly off-topic*
The turn undead mechanic problem isn't actually turn undead's fault. It's the fragile hp:CR ratio undead have due to the lack of a con modifier. Compare the hp of a lich (CR13 minimum, 77 hp) to a glabrezu (CR 13, 174 hp). Big difference. To compensate, R&D poured on the hit dice (4 hd only bumps an undead's CR by +1). This had the unintended side effect of severly weakening the turn undead mechanic.
A better fix would be to give all sentient undead unholy toughness (Cha mod as bonus hp per hd). Dungeon introduced another useful undead quality that gave a bonus to attack rolls = 1/2 hd (effectively giving such undead a fighter's base attack bonus, I think it was called Martial Calling). | |
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Kunimatyu
Sergeant
725 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 9:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by delguidance
Are there actually people who promote the idea of fourth edition? That's like the villagers who volunteer to be slaves to the vampire overlord.
Hi! ::waves::
I'm in favor of a 4E in the next two years, if it streamlines the oft-wonky collection of mechanics that 3.0/3.5 has accumulated. I don't think it'll be as big of a jump as people expect (as in, your old stuff still works, even if it's a bit clunky compared to the new hotness).
Honestly, with all the classes, prestige classes, monsters, spells, and feats of the past six years, it makes perfect sense that WotC would try to take what works out of what doesn't and make the system better. (Turn Undead is one of the many examples. Spell slots are another.) | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 07/15/2006 11:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
This only works if you also discard the XP system as written.
Indeed. The XP system in 3.0/3.5 is terrible. It turns the table-top RPG into a video game in terms of progression: "I just have to pass these 12 encounters and I'm on to the next level!" Later: "Well, that's another 12! Even though they were tougher, it only took that many again!"
I have ignored the XP system since leaving 2E. | |
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driordan
Sneak
52 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 3:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
I didn't use a CR level during 1st and 2nd edition... and I don't use it now.
This only works if you also discard the XP system as written.
And discarding the XP system as written is an idea that any DM with more IQ points than fingers should consider. CR can be usefull as a rough guide to how powerful monster X is, but it's only a rough guide. Beyond that use the CR system begins to show a variety of weaknesses that a good DM will HAVE to compensate for. | |
Once the game is over, the King and the pawn go back in the same box. | |
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driordan
Sneak
52 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 4:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I hear what you're saying but I disagree that I, as a creative DM, should be able to get around this problem. I shouldn't have to. WoTC created the turn undead mechanic not me, and they should be responsible for fixing it.
What?!? Creative DM's shouldn't be responsible for fixing rules that they don't like or that don't work? WoTC should spoon feed you a system that's perfect for you and your group? Pardon me while I vehemently disagree.
I've found that a single rule is missing from the 3rd edition books that had been featured prominently in the earlier versions of the game, and I fear that more than a few DM's have fallen prey to its omission. Stated roughly it went something like, "This is your game. If you don't like the rules, change them." WoTC is not responsible for providing us with a perfect system. That's our responsibility as players, and genuinely creative players will seize upon that and add or rework rules to make their perfect game. | |
Once the game is over, the King and the pawn go back in the same box. | |
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Rising Dragon
Sneak
91 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 10:30 AM |
| | I'll tell you whats absurb a 12 level party almost got wiped by pair of CR 8! A pair of drowned caught us by surprised and nearly everyone failed their con check! By luck our mounts made there check a manage to run out the area and the barbarian had drunk a potion of water breathing ealer. The drowned seem like one those creatures that ether really difficult or super easy, all depending if you fail or pass that aura they got. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 07/16/2006 11:13 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
This only works if you also discard the XP system as written.
Indeed. The XP system in 3.0/3.5 is terrible. It turns the table-top RPG into a video game in terms of progression: "I just have to pass these 12 encounters and I'm on to the next level!" Later: "Well, that's another 12! Even though they were tougher, it only took that many again!"
I have ignored the XP system since leaving 2E.
But with other iterations of the system it was sorta like after several sessions you gain a few levels, then after a few years you gain a few more. It was weirdly uneven. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 07/16/2006 11:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Rising Dragon
I'll tell you whats absurb a 12 level party almost got wiped by pair of CR 8! A pair of drowned caught us by surprised and nearly everyone failed their con check! By luck our mounts made there check a manage to run out the area and the barbarian had drunk a potion of water breathing ealer. The drowned seem like one those creatures that ether really difficult or super easy, all depending if you fail or pass that aura they got.
The drowned were raised to CR 9 in the MM 3 errata. But you're pretty much right about the monster. | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3463 Posts
Netherlands
| | 07/16/2006 1:23 PM |
| I still don't get the difference between CR and EL. With a 9-level (5 adventureres) party, I generally use CRs between 7 and 12 for encounters.
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 07/16/2006 1:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dordledum
I still don't get the difference between CR and EL. With a 9-level (5 adventureres) party, I generally use CRs between 7 and 12 for encounters.
D.
CR = challenge rating
EL = encounter level
Each beastie has an associated CR. When multiple beasties (CR's) are used in conjunction you determine the EL to see how balanced the encounter is for the party.
A single CR1 monster is an EL1 encounter. Every time you double the threat, add 2 to the EL, if you increase the CR by 50% add 1. So...
1CR1 = EL1
2CR1 = EL3
3CR1 = EL4
4CR1 = EL5
6CR1 = EL6
8CR1 = EL7
9CR1 = use a new beastie, if the system hasn't failed yet, it soon will.
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 07/17/2006 7:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
This only works if you also discard the XP system as written.
Indeed. The XP system in 3.0/3.5 is terrible.It turns the table-top RPG into a video game in terms of progression
YES!
This is the video game influence that I've spoken about on occasion. We really need a level progression system that isn't quite as slow as 1st/2nd ED but not quite as fast as 3.0/3.5. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 07/17/2006 7:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by driordan
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
I hear what you're saying but I disagree that I, as a creative DM, should be able to get around this problem. I shouldn't have to. WoTC created the turn undead mechanic not me, and they should be responsible for fixing it.
What?!? Creative DM's shouldn't be responsible for fixing rules that they don't like or that don't work? WoTC should spoon feed you a system that's perfect for you and your group? Pardon me while I vehemently disagree.
I've found that a single rule is missing from the 3rd edition books that had been featured prominently in the earlier versions of the game, and I fear that more than a few DM's have fallen prey to its omission. Stated roughly it went something like, "This is your game. If you don't like the rules, change them." WoTC is not responsible for providing us with a perfect system. That's our responsibility as players, and genuinely creative players will seize upon that and add or rework rules to make their perfect game.
It seems our interpretation of the word responsible differs.
So you think you (as a WoTC product end user) are "responsible" for fixing rules huh? You're not "responsible" for doing any such thing. WoTC is. It's their product, not yours. However, you're free to do as you wish. You don't like something? Fine, change it! It's your game, do what you wish. It was never my intention to say otherwise. However, it's still not YOUR responsibility to do it. You obviously have no issue and also have the time to change what you don't like. That's what works for you and that's fine. It's not what works for me.
My issue was (and still is) that I should not have to fix Wotc rules gaffs. They are professional game designers, they get paid for it. I am not a pro game designer and I don't have the time to go around tweaking rules systems. I want THEM to get it right, or at least better. Savvy?
[eyes] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Dordledum
Commander
3463 Posts
Netherlands
| | 07/17/2006 10:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
quote:
Originally posted by Dordledum
I still don't get the difference between CR and EL. With a 9-level (5 adventureres) party, I generally use CRs between 7 and 12 for encounters.
D.
CR = challenge rating
EL = encounter level
Each beastie has an associated CR. When multiple beasties (CR's) are used in conjunction you determine the EL to see how balanced the encounter is for the party.
A single CR1 monster is an EL1 encounter. Every time you double the threat, add 2 to the EL, if you increase the CR by 50% add 1. So...
1CR1 = EL1
2CR1 = EL3
3CR1 = EL4
4CR1 = EL5
6CR1 = EL6
8CR1 = EL7
9CR1 = use a new beastie, if the system hasn't failed yet, it soon will.
Ah, you know this explanation is a lot clearer than the one in the DMG, thanks! I did use this system, just didn't get the terminology right.
cheers!
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 07/17/2006 11:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
Party A taking on Party B is a toss up. They are equally matched and therefore have a 50/50 chance of winning the fight. And even if they do win there is probaly a 90% chance at least one of them died in the fight.
And thus the danger of going by memory alone (especially my memory [)]). I thought EL+4 was a TPK. That it works out as even-odds makes perfect sense. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/17/2006 2:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
This only works if you also discard the XP system as written.
Indeed. The XP system in 3.0/3.5 is terrible.It turns the table-top RPG into a video game in terms of progression
YES!
This is the video game influence that I've spoken about on occasion. We really need a level progression system that isn't quite as slow as 1st/2nd ED but not quite as fast as 3.0/3.5.
If you don't want them to go up so fast, award half (or some other fraction) of the by the book XP. A completely new system is not required. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/17/2006 2:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by driordan
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
I didn't use a CR level during 1st and 2nd edition... and I don't use it now.
This only works if you also discard the XP system as written.
And discarding the XP system as written is an idea that any DM with more IQ points than fingers should consider. CR can be usefull as a rough guide to how powerful monster X is, but it's only a rough guide. Beyond that use the CR system begins to show a variety of weaknesses that a good DM will HAVE to compensate for.
It works well for my games, but thank you nonetheless for the implication contained in your first sentence. [)]
My own take on it is that DMs who find the CR system isn't working well enough for encounter balance are either using a very large party size (or a very unbalanced mix of classes), a lot of 3rd party materials, or are being generally too permissive in terms of PC power level. | |
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 07/17/2006 4:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
My own take on it is that DMs who find the CR system isn't working well enough for encounter balance are either using a very large party size (or a very unbalanced mix of classes), a lot of 3rd party materials, or are being generally too permissive in terms of PC power level.
QFT. I run a lot of off-balanced parties for reasons beyond (what I choose to be) my control. It's hard to assess the capability of a party of 6 or 9(!) when the CR system is set up to allow for a party of four only. What I try to do is throw in roughly double the number of correct CR monsters or run a CR only one or two higher than normal. Just because the party is a higher EL themselves doesn't truly reflect their potential. If you run a party of 4, the threat should be appropriate to the scale system. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/17/2006 6:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by FeranEldritchKnight
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
My own take on it is that DMs who find the CR system isn't working well enough for encounter balance are either using a very large party size (or a very unbalanced mix of classes), a lot of 3rd party materials, or are being generally too permissive in terms of PC power level.
QFT. I run a lot of off-balanced parties for reasons beyond (what I choose to be) my control. It's hard to assess the capability of a party of 6 or 9(!) when the CR system is set up to allow for a party of four only. What I try to do is throw in roughly double the number of correct CR monsters or run a CR only one or two higher than normal. Just because the party is a higher EL themselves doesn't truly reflect their potential. If you run a party of 4, the threat should be appropriate to the scale system.
Yes, increasing the number of enemies rather than going to a higher CR is definitely the way to go for larger parties. It's the blasphemy effect. | |
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*censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 07/17/2006 6:40 PM |
| | [img]http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1638/theorykl0.jpg[/img] | |
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