chrisman321
Warrior
308 Posts
    
 | | 07/20/2006 12:09 PM |
| | I was wondering why a lot of people hate or dislike monks, i've just made one and i see nothing wrong with it. What's wrong with you?lol [:p] | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 12:16 PM |
| I personally love the monk class.
Too bad it is very squishy at low levels, but once you hit the higher levels (10-20) they become, IMO, the most powerful class in the game. | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
692 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 12:21 PM |
| I don't dislike the monk class, but I do kinda forget about it a lot. I think it is outside my normal D&D frame of reference.
I did play a half-orge monk grappler once, but he was sorta of a unique character. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/20/2006 12:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by chrisman321
I was wondering why a lot of people hate or dislike monks, i've just made one and i see nothing wrong with it. What's wrong with you?lol [:p]
The problem I have with them is the same I have with bards, they take a lot of work to put them on the same level as fighters and other classes. At higher levels, they are great, but at lower levels it can be rough. Cleric BAB, lower hit points, flurry penalties, stunning fist that doesn't really work well, low AC, etc. It can make low levels very frustrating to play especially when you see your fighter friend who is supposed to be your equal doing a lot more. Again, I think at higher levels monks can rock, but for me I don't feel it is worth it for the pain you go through at lower levels. | |
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Ghendar
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| | 07/20/2006 12:22 PM |
| | People hate monks? Sheesh, just think how annoyed folks will be when I roll up my gnome monk. [:p] | |
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mordulin
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 12:25 PM |
| | I would never go so far as saying I hate monks, however I am cursed to never play one without dying. I suffer from what I call curse of Monk, anytime I play a monk, no matter how high my AC or how high my Attacks are, I will always miss my opponents and they will always hit/crit on me. I blame it on the fact that the very first character I created in 3.0 was a monk and our party experienced a TPK in our first adventure. | |
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Ragecage
Sergeant
362 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 12:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mordulin
I would never go so far as saying I hate monks, however I am cursed to never play one without dying. I suffer from what I call curse of Monk, anytime I play a monk, no matter how high my AC or how high my Attacks are, I will always miss my opponents and they will always hit/crit on me. I blame it on the fact that the very first character I created in 3.0 was a monk and our party experienced a TPK in our first adventure.
That seems to be the main problem. I play a half-orc monk in Living Greyhawk, and he seems to put himself in lethal situations more times than I'd like. I guess an 8 Int'll do that to ya. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4811 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/20/2006 1:03 PM |
| Monks can be incredibly awesome.
One of their main drawbacks is the need of rolling four optimal stats (Str, Dex, Con, Wis). Fighters merely need Str and Con, Wizards need Dex and Int, even paladins only need Str, Con, and Cha (Wis being optional).
Another drawback is style. Most players play as the party fighter. Monks are not very good primary fighters. They are excellent secondary fighters (fight defensively and aid another, tumble past the enemy to flank, etc), especially at lower levels. If you're in a party of 5+ characters, that's when auxillary characters (monk, bard) can make a positive difference. Trying to replace a "core need" (arcane firepower, healer, fighter, expert) character with a monk or bard is a poor choice. Adding a monk or bard to a party with an existing core can be a wise choice. | |
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MechaKingGhidra
Sergeant
632 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:06 PM |
| | I don't hate monks but it could just be me when it comes to simply not understanding every aspect of the Flurry of Blows entry and it is seemingly being in great contradiction with the monk progression chart that lists the related information and when I think about, every scenario I come up with is that it needs a full re-explanation in simpler terms so I'm not always asking questions. I can't quite explain specific scenarios without confusing myself but it could just be an information overload. All in all, I would try taking monk levels if I just understood the FoB situation. But until this happens, it'll be the sorcerer for me. | |
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Ragecage
Sergeant
362 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
Another drawback is style. Most players play as the party fighter. Monks are not very good primary fighters. They are excellent secondary fighters (fight defensively and aid another, tumble past the enemy to flank, etc), especially at lower levels. If you're in a party of 5+ characters, that's when auxillary characters (monk, bard) can make a positive difference. Trying to replace a "core need" (arcane firepower, healer, fighter, expert) character with a monk or bard is a poor choice. Adding a monk or bard to a party with an existing core can be a wise choice.
This is a major problem when you play most of your D&D in an RPGA setting, like LG. You often end up with the "Franken-table" situation of a cobbled together party with everyone filling a role they're not optimised for. With a specialist class, like the monk, this can be very lethal. | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4636 Posts
New York
| | 07/20/2006 1:44 PM |
| The only thing I have ever heard about not liking monks is...
A - They dont fit into a mieval Europe setting.
B - We have to many Human Monk miniatures and we dont want any more.
While A is true, D&D is not Europe or Earth.
B is definitly true but that doesnt effect my opinion of them for RPGs (I like em).
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Ragecage
Sergeant
362 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 1:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
The only thing I have ever heard about not liking monks is...
A - They dont fit into a mieval Europe setting.
B - We have to many Human Monk miniatures and we dont want any more.
While A is true, D&D is not Europe or Earth.
B is definitly true but that doesnt effect my opinion of them for RPGs (I like em).
See, I know this discussion could be back and forth on A all day (and God knows it has before), but I think that any class can fit a setting if you want it to. I have a harder time believing that flying lizards and undead priests existed in a Medieval European setting than a person who just wanted to beat stuff up with their bare hands or a quarterstaff. Sure, the oriental style weapons are not very European, but you don't have to use them to be an effective monk. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 3:03 PM |
| Monks are generally underpowered compared to other melee classes. When you're playing in a point buy system, this is exacerbated because monks really need multiple good stats in order to compete, much like paladins.
This effect is why I prefer to roll stats rather than use point buy, personally. I find the incidence of odd classes go up as people get a really good result and think "hey this is my chance to play a monk that doesn't suck!" | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 3:03 PM |
| I have a Greek-style world (at least the part of it the PCs are in), so we don't have monks. We have athletes: boxers, wrestlers, specialists in unarmed combat. Greek mythology is full of 'em. We have Gymnasiums instead of Monasteries; the Greek Gymnasiums were a lot like Medieval monasteries. Well, with drinking, partying and sex, but only after the game. [)] The exotic weapons I explain away as elven or foreign ("barbarian") weapons, and have backstoried an elven tradition in unarmed and exotic weapon fighting that the athletes have incorporated. Kama = "moonblade" for example. Monks / athletes are rare, as they should be with those stat requirements.
When playing a monk in an "oriental-ish" setting, I kinda like to get a level or three of fighter (or Bushi, Sohei, Whatever) first. It's pragmatic from a metagaming standpoint, and from an RP standpoint, it represents someone "searching themselves" to begin the "path of enlightenment." Monk is almost a prestige class for me.
But I like monks. I'd like to play one again someday. Hi-keeba! [:D]
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yack
Commander
3162 Posts
Ottawa, Canada
| | 07/20/2006 4:22 PM |
| | dislike the class.. my D&D is old school, like stated above got more of a LOTR feel or Greek myth. | |
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6614 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/20/2006 4:28 PM |
| Monks just don't fit with my concept of D&D. Oriental Adventures type stuff just doesn't jive with what I like about D&D. My problem with monks is the concept. Many martial artists use weapons against others who are attacking them with weapons. Monks usually don't. There are reach and deflection problems with that. (I'm no martial artist myself, btw, so this small part of why I don't like monks may not be based on an accurate perception.)
We get far too many monk miniatures. | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 07/20/2006 5:05 PM |
| I don't have a problem with Monk as a class, and I have no problems with putting monastic orders in a medieval "Europeanish" fantasy setting. In most D&D campaign settings, there is a lot more cultural diversity within a given city or kingdom than there would be historically.
I appreciate the monk class and I have nothing against it. I'm simply not as interested in playing the class as I am in playing other classes, mostly for roleplaying reasons rather than class mechanics. | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 6:40 PM |
| I am with Corim Danex on this one.
Monks & Ninja's just don't fit into my idea of D&D.
Unless it is a pirate campaign... then the Ninja's show up because SOMEONE has to fight the pirates ;)
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 6:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
This effect is why I prefer to roll stats rather than use point buy, personally. I find the incidence of odd classes go up as people get a really good result and think "hey this is my chance to play a monk that doesn't suck!"
So why not simply give players bonus points for stats if they play a monk? At least any balance problems will be squarely under your control, rather than at the whim of dice. And if monks really are weaker -- I'm a monk-hater, just don't like the feel of the class, so I wouldn't know -- then there shouldn't be any balance problems. Plus, it'll eliminate the problems of, "Hey, I rolled awesome for my stats! Now's my chance to play a monk who doesn't suck! Nah. I'll just play a seriously kick-ass fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard!" | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
8993 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 07/20/2006 7:17 PM |
| | I like the concept of monks, but for game-play flavour, they are a bit boring because of a lack of items. Fighters get all sorts of cool thing like helm-of-this and sword-of-that, while the best monks take the Vow of Poverty. | |
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chrisman321
Warrior
308 Posts
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zenthrus
Commander
4811 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/20/2006 10:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
the best monks take the Vow of Poverty.
Single-class monks are the only characters that I allow to take the Vow of Poverty. That's one borderline-broken feat.
The 3.0 PrC that swore off magic (can't recall the name, but they could destroy magic items by touch) combined with the Vow of Poverty equated one seriously over-powered character. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/20/2006 10:54 PM |
| | You are thinking of the Forsaker. I didn't even think of that combo, but that would be, indeed, sick. | |
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DarkWhite
Warrior
185 Posts
| | 07/20/2006 11:01 PM |
| | I've two of my current RPGA characters I play at conventions are Monks, thus far at low levels. I think Monks makes interesting characters, and also a good choice for new players. Flurry of Blows means they often get to make two attacks per round, instead of one, so more dice rolling, being in the thick of the action, and feeling like you're contributing to the party. Also, compared to a Fighter, Monks don't have all those Feats to worry about, which keeps things simple for new players. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/21/2006 2:09 AM |
| | IMHO, the monk negativity, at least among my circle of friends, is how overpowered the 3.0 monk was by itself. just the class. Many of my player's never got over that, even with 3.5. The one time someone tried it, it was a RP heavy game, and a player combine Monk with vow of Poverty, and while he played it very well, all the other PC's RP "drawbacks", if you will, weren't as powerful as that. Combat became a 1-man show. It was either let him take care of it, or it's to tough, we can't help. Not a good experience. | |
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DarkWhite
Warrior
185 Posts
| | 07/21/2006 3:58 AM |
| I could never understand 3.0 Flurry of Blows as it was written. I never played a 3.0 Monk, so I can't comment on that. However, 3.5 Monk Flurry of Blows is easy to understand.
I have heard some people comment that extra attacks don't help much, because lower BAB means they have trouble hitting high AC opponents, so I haven't experienced the overpowered 3.0 monk you describe. | |
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Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 07/21/2006 12:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
I am with Corim Danex on this one.
Monks & Ninja's just don't fit into my idea of D&D.
I never really had a problem with monks in D&D. Ninja's on the other hand definitely don't fit into my idea of D&D. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 07/21/2006 12:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
the best monks take the Vow of Poverty.
Single-class monks are the only characters that I allow to take the Vow of Poverty. That's one borderline-broken feat.
It's actually not bad for a Paladin or Cleric, depending on the god of course. | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 07/21/2006 12:54 PM |
| What does Vow of Poverty do?
| |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/21/2006 2:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
the best monks take the Vow of Poverty.
Single-class monks are the only characters that I allow to take the Vow of Poverty. That's one borderline-broken feat.
The 3.0 PrC that swore off magic (can't recall the name, but they could destroy magic items by touch) combined with the Vow of Poverty equated one seriously over-powered character.
I just don't allow 3.0 stuff, personally. Vow of Poverty is definitely iffy.
Here's a thing to think about, though. Why only allow Vow of Poverty for monks, if you think Vow of Poverty is broken? Monks are one of the classes that benefit the *most* from it. Setting aside prestige classes, only druids and sorcerers really come close (druids being probably much more broken with it actually.)
But, if a monk with it is balanced enough for you to allow in your game, why not allow, say, a fighter or ranger to take it? | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 07/21/2006 2:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
My problem with monks is the concept. Many martial artists use weapons against others who are attacking them with weapons. Monks usually don't. There are reach and deflection problems with that. (I'm no martial artist myself, btw, so this small part of why I don't like monks may not be based on an accurate perception.)
Nope, Corim, you pretty much nailed it. All silly mumbo-jumbo and Martial Arts groupies aside, you can probably count the number of times in history an unarmed fighter has been able to defeat a guy holding a sword on one hand. The romanticist in all of us really wants it to be possible, but reality pretty much punches romanticism in the nose. Take an average medieval peasant, give him a shield and longsword, point him at a shao-lin master and the peasant is going to win a lot more often than the monk.
Of course, we're not talking D&D here- we're talking historical truth. D&D is an altogether different story. If my Halfling Sorcerer can project beams of white-hot flame from his hands and can pop all over creation in an instant, just how much of a stretch is it to say that certain mystical martial arts can teach you to take on swordsmen empty-handed? So I've got no problem with monks, especially adapted ones- the Dwarven Monks of Moradin, for example, use the connection with their patron to turn their skin as hard as stone (AC bonus) and to pound their enemies with Fists of Granite (unarmed damage) before retiring to the pub to partake in the Dwarf God's bounty of good ale :) | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4811 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/21/2006 2:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
you can probably count the number of times in history an unarmed fighter has been able to defeat a guy holding a sword on one hand.
That would have to be one seriously inept swordsman to lose.
Most of the monks I see played wield monk weapons. Unarmed combat favors the monk, but the ability to customize the special abilities of your weapons outweighs the better unarmed damage in the long run.
As to Monk minis....I could always use more. Then again, the games I run tend to have a strong mingling of Asian and European influences. It would be nice to get more minis using different monk weapons (kukris, kamas, etc) and less unarmed or wielding non-monk weapons (the whirling steel monk seems to have forgotten that she can't flurry with a longsword....).
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Why only allow Vow of Poverty for monks, if you think Vow of Poverty is broken?
It's allowed largely because none of my players will ever play a single-class monk [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by gss_000
You are thinking of the Forsaker.
Yup. That's the one. Forsaker + Vow of Poverty = Sick, sick, sick, sick, sick.
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 07/21/2006 3:41 PM |
| | I like monks. A lot. Extremely good for the later levels. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 07/21/2006 4:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
Most of the monks I see played wield monk weapons. Unarmed combat favors the monk, but the ability to customize the special abilities of your weapons outweighs the better unarmed damage in the long run.
I can definitely see this in the early levels, but once you get into your teens I can't see how customization can keep up with a natural 2d6 attack augmented by an amulet of natural attacks. I've been wrong before, though :)
quote:
As to Monk minis....I could always use more. Then again, the games I run tend to have a strong mingling of Asian and European influences. It would be nice to get more minis using different monk weapons (kukris, kamas, etc) and less unarmed or wielding non-monk weapons (the whirling steel monk seems to have forgotten that she can't flurry with a longsword....).
She took a feat in Eberron that allows monks to flurry with a long sword. It's called- surprise, surprise- whirling steel strike.
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chrisman321
Warrior
308 Posts
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zenthrus
Commander
4811 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/21/2006 7:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Puggins
She [Whirling Steel Monk] took a feat in Eberron that allows monks to flurry with a long sword. It's called- surprise, surprise- whirling steel strike.
That would explain it. I don't keep up on what's available in Eberron [:D]
Ironically, longsword and shortsword are standard gongfu weapons (tai chi sword and broadsword). The standard monk weapon list is somewhat arbitrary. | |
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Ghendar
Warlord
11197 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 07/22/2006 11:06 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
What does Vow of Poverty do?
It's a feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Briefly,
You basically give up all material possessions and get abilities for doing so. You gain bonuses to AC, ability scores, and saving throws. You also get bonus exalted feats. | |
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 07/24/2006 2:13 PM |
| I don't really like monks for the following reason
A: need 4 good stats
B: dont get armor, instead get a crappy AC mod
C: dont get weapons, could get gauntlets but there not comparable...
D: not the best at anything, just pritty good at a lot of things
E: low Hp/Atk Bounus
F: fists don't to comparable dmg... A monk doesn't get 2d6 till late levels while a lvl 1 fighter could pick up a great sword, still have a magical bucker on his hand and still be better....
G: I don't think they fit that well into Midevil D&D in general..
H: They are generally situational and need to make every situation the optimal situation for them to be effictive (i.e. constantly tripping/grappeling)
There is a few huge benifits to being a monk
A: spring attack at later levels with monks speed...
B: saves at later game are really amazing.
C: 3 out of 4 core stats happen to add to there saving throws
D: They can heal later on
Over all i think the cons outweight the pros on being a monk, Just say you have the optimal stats (i.e) 18, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10. Imagin what else you could do to make a better class than a monk... | |
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