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Originally posted by Zardnaar


By level 8 she was giving everyone in the party +8 to hit and damage via Bardic Music

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Originally posted by gss_000

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Originally posted by Zardnaar


By level 8 she was giving everyone in the party +8 to hit and damage via Bardic Music

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I'm curious how you got this as I'm going to try to play a bard in another game.

This will be the 2nd time I've done it, the first where the campaign didn't last long but I did not like the class at all. I think the problem is this, the class is one that most players would be happy to have at the table, but can be really frustrating to play. Especially at lower levels, you're spell progression is frustratingly low, you can't hit anything well, and your abilities have limited applications. This changes at higher levels, but can be annoying early on (or so it was for me).

The class is very much one that lets other characters shine and gets them trough encounters faster. It's why some people don't like clerics, because they see them as only first aid kits. If you want to be more proactive, bard is a horrible class. But it's great if you want abilities that are always useful no matter the situation or creature.

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Originally posted by gss_000

Thanks. Unfortunately, excepth for CA, those are books that are not going to be allowed in the game. That spell will be very useful, though.

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Originally posted by Zardnaar


Yeah that book is good for Bards anyway with the new spells and feats. An archer bard only really need Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and maybe porecise shot to be remarkably effective. Inspirational boost and haste is your friend. Glibness is good for the BS Bard as well. +30 on your bluff rolls.

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Originally posted by Ghendar

Perhaps I'm not seeing th big picture here but if I was looking to add a fifth character to a party that contained the archetypical

Fighter type
Wizard
Cleric
Thief

I wouldn't choose a bard. No doubt they have some intriguing abilities but I'd rather have a...........

Sorcerer - paired with a group that already has a wizard, having a sorcerer is just awesome. the sorc can be used to artillery support leaving the wizard (with a much broader spell selection) to be the more versatile all around arcane caster.

Cleric - Who can argue with more healing and more undead turning.

Druid - Druids can also be, to borrow a term seen in a post above, bad muthas, plus they can provide additional healing if needed.

Fighter type - Much like the cleric example above, who can argue with having having another front line fighter?

I don't have any particular prejudice against the bard, I just think there are better choices.

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Originally posted by Zardnaar

A reasonably min/maxed Bard can hold their own in a fight. A heavily min/maxed Bard can break a party. If PLayers don't mind helping other PCs out our Bard added at least 50% of the parties damage in combat if not more from turning misses into hits. The build did depend on several books DMs don't tend to like. .......

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Originally posted by Ghendar

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Originally posted by Zardnaar

A reasonably min/maxed Bard can hold their own in a fight. A heavily min/maxed Bard can break a party. If PLayers don't mind helping other PCs out our Bard added at least 50% of the parties damage in combat if not more from turning misses into hits. The build did depend on several books DMs don't tend to like. .......

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I should have prefaced my comments by saying that in a normal (non-munchkin) build, I'd rather having anything but a bard.

However, for those who like to "break" classes, yeah, it's pretty powerful.

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Originally posted by IanB

I've played one to level 14 thus far. I don't know that I would describe the character as powerful, although certainly he has his strengths. As a 10 strength halfling, I am completely useless in terms of physical combat, but I do pretty well with spell support, bardic music/knowledge, and a massive, massive diplomacy bonus.

I'm not sure how you claim to be giving +8 to hit and damage via bardic music at level 8. Are you using some non-WotC feats or something?

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Originally posted by Zardnaar

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Originally posted by Ghendar

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Originally posted by Zardnaar

A reasonably min/maxed Bard can hold their own in a fight. A heavily min/maxed Bard can break a party. If PLayers don't mind helping other PCs out our Bard added at least 50% of the parties damage in combat if not more from turning misses into hits. The build did depend on several books DMs don't tend to like. .......

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I should have prefaced my comments by saying that in a normal (non-munchkin) build, I'd rather having anything but a bard.

However, for those who like to "break" classes, yeah, it's pretty powerful.

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I prefer the term powergaming. Munchkin to me is stuff like Hulking Hurler abuse, or Pun Pun the Kobold Psion. Powergaming is making powerful PCs without using rule loop holes or multiple classes and PrCs to tech out a character.

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Originally posted by brazenwood

I love the Bard, my favorite class by far! I usually play more of a scholar bard, like Indiana Jones with spells, but I see the spells being cast more like Rupert Giles on Buffy, and I usually take two levels of Fighter and 2 levels of Rogue to get the full Indy template, he needs to be able to fight and also to detect traps and evade stuff...I usaully go Bard, Fighter, Rogue..then Rogue, Fighter, and then the rest Bard...

In D&D online I'm doing a similar build, just made 4th level and right now I'm Bard 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 2...I like maxing out my Use Magic Device and then collecting scrolls and wands and usinmg them to devastating effect. If you do it right with feat support you can get your Use MAgic Device up to like +13 in the early levels, and you only need a 20 to use a wand.

Very useful when the cleric is out of gas or you don't have one, and say your bard runs out of gas, and then your party needs healing and you whip out a cure wand and start zapping everyone. Looks real cool in D&D online, everyone's character is going by and you are zapping them with cure spells, and you get lots of thank yous!

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Originally posted by Zardnaar

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Originally posted by IanB

I've played one to level 14 thus far. I don't know that I would describe the character as powerful, although certainly he has his strengths. As a 10 strength halfling, I am completely useless in terms of physical combat, but I do pretty well with spell support, bardic music/knowledge, and a massive, massive diplomacy bonus.

I'm not sure how you claim to be giving +8 to hit and damage via bardic music at level 8. Are you using some non-WotC feats or something?

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Spells
Inspirational Boost- Complete Adventurer-+1 BM
Harmony- Players Guide to Faerun +1 BM

Feats
Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds)- Doubles BM inflicts 3d4 points of non lethal damage to you.

BM= Bardic Music

Heres the mechanic of it. Some ppl don't like the book of exalted deeds but you should be able to get it up to +4 without Words of Creation. Complete Adventurer has some great Bard material.

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Originally posted by Zardnaar

quote:

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Originally posted by IanB

I've played one to level 14 thus far. I don't know that I would describe the character as powerful, although certainly he has his strengths. As a 10 strength halfling, I am completely useless in terms of physical combat, but I do pretty well with spell support, bardic music/knowledge, and a massive, massive diplomacy bonus.

I'm not sure how you claim to be giving +8 to hit and damage via bardic music at level 8. Are you using some non-WotC feats or something?

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Had to do a double take when I started to read this. In the medical community "BM" means something else entirely.



Spells
Inspirational Boost- Complete Adventurer-+1 BM
Harmony- Players Guide to Faerun +1 BM

Feats
Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds)- Doubles BM inflicts 3d4 points of non lethal damage to you.

BM= Bardic Music

Heres the mechanic of it. Some ppl don't like the book of exalted deeds but you should be able to get it up to +4 without Words of Creation. Complete Adventurer has some great Bard material.

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Heres some info I found on my computer I was going to post in another site but never got around to it.

Bards

Bards suck right? I've heard this comment from a lot of people who play D&D. While not as obvious as say a Barbarian or Druid the Bard is still in the top half of powerful classes in D&D. Basically the Bard is a skill monkey with a massive 6 skill points per level and one of the best skill lists in the game. Also outside combat you should be the most useful character in the game as you have the social skills and inclination to spend skill points on them compared to rogues who often spend their skill points on combat skills to maximise sneak attack. You just have to realise what Bards are good at which is basically making other people in the party better which doesn't appeal to all players. The bigger your party is with the more melee and archer based characters in it the better your bard will be. Overall a well constructed/broken bard should be responsable for around 40-60% of all damage inflicted in a combat.

The Bards most important ability scores are Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence,Constitution, Wisdom, and Strength in that order. The reasons should be obvious but basically strength is a dump stat, a high wisdom while nice is non essential, constitution helps out on the Bards weak fortitude saves and bonus hit points while the other 3 stats are tied to a lot of the Bards class abilties or skill list.With d6 hit dice, light armor profiency, and no shields the average Bard should never engage in melee combat if they can avoid it as the class isn't built for it. You are basically a support character that can help out with spells. Also build your bard as an archer as they can do a surprising amount of damage with a bow. I would recommend the following feats from the players handbook and mould recommend you play a human bard for the bonus feat and skill point at each level. The other races are also quite good except for Half Orc and Dwarf. For races from the monster manual the DM might actually let you have Aasimar and Drow make good bards if you don't mind the ECL involved. Every four levels when you get to add another +1 to an ability score of your choice add it to charisma.

Ability Scores. Under 32 point buy I recommend the following ability scores otherwise roll dice or rework the scores if you're using 25 or 28 point buy. If you're using more than 32 point buy  sweet:).

Strength 10

Dexterity 14

Constitution 14

Intelligence 12

Wisdom 12

Charisma 16

Bard Feat selection (human) Players Handbook Only

Level

1.Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

3.Rapid Shot

6.Improved Initiative

9.Extend spell

After this choose whatever suits your play style or whatever you prefer. The above feats are chosen to make you a decent archer while theres numerous Bard spells that benefit from the extend spell feat. Many Shot and Improved Precise Shot may be decent feat to pick at level 15 and/or 18.

Bard Skills I would max out ranks in the following skills. Assuming you're human for the bonus skill points.

Bluff

Hide

Diplomacy

Listen

Move Silently

Perform

Spot

These are basically the diplomacy skills and give you synergy bonuses as well. Try and get a 12 intelligence for more skill points as well. Even under point buy you should be able to manage a 12 intelligence. Sense motive would probably be a good choice while hide/move silently are optional but I like them.

Bardic Music.

Bardic music is a great abilty. Think of it more as once per day per level powergaming tool rather than singing or dancing. Its reasonably obvious what most of them do but 2 uses of bardic music stand out.

Fascinate. While argueably not a great gamebreaking abilty this bardic music feature can get you out of a lot of tight spots. The reason is the saving throw is a perform check and skills increase a lot faster than saving throws. Its also a will save and remember the higher your charisma the higher the will save will be.

eg. Level 20 bard with 26 (+8)charisma (15 starting, +1 every 4 levels, +6 cloak of charisma) and 23 ranks in perfom can use fascinate with a DC ranging from 32 to 51 depending on the d20 roll. Have a look through the monster manual to see how many have a a really high will saves. Theres a reasonable chance you can fascinate a Great Wurm Gold Dragon. Obviously at lower levels the save will be lower but it is still high compared to most opponents will sves.

Inspire Courage. The cornerstone of Bardic abuse. Gives you +1 (+2 at level 8, +3 at14^th, +4 at 20^th ) to hit, damage and saves vs fear. You would be surprised at how much damage this can add up to. To maximise its abuse try making as many attacks as possible throughout the party via full attack actions, haste spells, monk flurry, and the rapid shot feat. Try it out and add up all the extra damage the part dealt and remember to count any hits that would have missed as full damage. BTW it also affects you as well. Told you to take the rapid shot feat and haste is a Bard spell.........

Bardic Spells

The following spells are recommended for Bards to take as they generally buff yourself and/or the party. You can't compete with the wizards, clerics, and druids on damage. You can compete for buffng the party however. These are spells you just about never regret knowing.Also remember the Bard doesn't suffer arcane spell failure if they cast spells in light armor.

Level 1. Charm person, Cure lt Wounds, Expedious Retreat

Level 2. Alter Self,Cats Grace, Cure Moderate Wounds,Heroism,Invisabilty

Level 3. Confusion,Charm Monster, Displacement,Glibness,Haste, Good Hope

Level 4. Freedom of Movement,Hold Monster, Greater Invisability

Level 5.Dispel Magic Greater,Heroism Greater, Song of Discord

Level 6.Nothing stands out. Choose whatever you like.

The Multiclass Bard

The Bard is one of few classes I wouldn't multiclass at all except for maybe a single fighter level. In general just stay single classed.

Prestige Classes

There are no prestige classes worth using in the Dungeon Masters Guide. The Dragon Disciple is OK if you've only taken 2-3 bard levels and the reast as Fighter or Barbarian.

Non Core Bard

Heres where things get interesting for the Bard. I recommend picking up the Complete Adventurer book as its full of juicy Bard goodies such as several bard feats and the PrCs like Virtuoso and Sublime Chord which are playable Bard PrCs.Players Guide to Faerun also has several useful spells, feats etc. In any event see if you can con er persuade your DM to allow thefollowing spells. Say that since bards suck anyway.....

Harmony (Players Guide to Faerun level 1 Bard spell). Gives you +1 to your inspire courage ability. Basically +1 to hit and damage as long as you sing.

Inspirational Boost (Complete Adventurer) similar to Harmony and stacks with it. Bard now gives you +3-+6 damage.

Snowsong (Frostburn) +4 AC, +1d6 cold damage,+4 charisma, fast healing 1, cold resistence 15, enemies suffer 20% spell failure chance. Lasts 10 minutes/level and effects the whole party. Doesn't move with the caster though.

Breaking the Bard

In one of our games we managed to break the bard. We used the spells Inspirational Boost and Harmony and the feat Words of Creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Basically words of creation doubles your bardic music effect. The PC took the feat at level 9. Inspire courage at this level gives you +2 to hit and damage while harmonise +harmony make it +4 while Words of Creation double it to +8 and deals you 3d4 subdual damage. At level 20 its +12 to hit and damage. This also effects the entire party BTW which had 3 archers in it, a Fighter 1/ClericX, A Druid wldshaping into whatever dire animal he needed,and a henchmen. Each PC had 4-5 attacks with haste. Overall the bard added +160 damage per round to the partys attack rolls which didn't tend to miss with +8 to hit. Bardic music also combo's with the power attack feat so the fighter types could take -5 to hit and gain +10 damage (+3 hit +18 dmage total per attack). Inspire courage also works with archery as well.Frost and fire giants don't tend to last long. An interesting concept I never tried was a two weapon fighing monk using flurry for 8 attacks a round with +10 or12 to hit and damage at higher levels.

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Originally posted by IanB

I've played one to level 14 thus far. I don't know that I would describe the character as powerful, although certainly he has his strengths. As a 10 strength halfling, I am completely useless in terms of physical combat, but I do pretty well with spell support, bardic music/knowledge, and a massive, massive diplomacy bonus.

I'm not sure how you claim to be giving +8 to hit and damage via bardic music at level 8. Are you using some non-WotC feats or something?

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Spells
Inspirational Boost- Complete Adventurer-+1 BM
Harmony- Players Guide to Faerun +1 BM

Feats
Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds)- Doubles BM inflicts 3d4 points of non lethal damage to you.

BM= Bardic Music

Heres the mechanic of it. Some ppl don't like the book of exalted deeds but you should be able to get it up to +4 without Words of Creation. Complete Adventurer has some great Bard material.[/QUOTE]

Setting aside Words of Creation's power level (I do think it is broken) I don't believe that WoC should double the bonuses granted by spells. You'd be on safer rules ground if you were getting +6 out of it, I think.