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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
    
Montreal
 | | 08/22/2006 9:52 AM |
| In another thread, i asked what other abilities a cleric could use
instead of turning undead, since in my campaign undead creatures are
rare and i feel that the ability is lost to the cleric. I've had good
replies, and i've seen a list of feats available in the different WotC
books by which the cleric can use an alternate ability by trading away
one of his daily uses of turn undead.
However, i find that in most
cases the alternate ability diverges away from the turning undead
ability quite a lot. For
example, one feat allows the cleric to obtain a bonus to AC equal to
the cleric's CHA modifier for
a few rounds when he trades away one use of turn undead. Other feats,
such as the one by which the cleric allows his allies to ignore
incorporeality, are very specific and unless your cleric evolved in a
world that's overcrowded with ghosts, i don't see why a cleric would
spend on of his feats on such an ability (although maybe it's just me.
In 20 years as a DM, i think my PCs encountered 1 ghost and a handful
of spectres).
Anyway, i think it would be fun to develop a new ability for clerics
that they could use as an alternate ability to their turn undead
ability (i.e. in addition to it). The idea of taking a feat for
allowing this alternate ability to work appears like a good idea, but i
would not necessarily limit myself to such an ability. What i
have in mind is that this ability should somehow remain related to the
turn undead ability, by which the cleric channels positive (or
negative) energy to turn or rebuke undead.
What i propose, if some of you are interested, is that we try to
develop this ability, through brainstorming and common ideas, or
perhaps even through a single good idea.
Here are a few ideas to kick this off (hoping that others will jump in
with any idea that crosses your mind at the outset). Remember, i'm
brainstorming, i don't intend to use all at the same time of course.
- the positive energy damages all opponents that are not perfectly
aligned to the cleric's alignment. Since no mortal is perfectly lawful
good for example, a lawful good cleric would deal some damage (a little
amount, e.g. 1 point per cleric level?) to all creatures that are not
from the plane of his deity (including allies). Undead would suffer
greater damage (e.g. 1d6 per clerci level). Usual turning does not work
anymore since the undead are damaged (this last part is already used in
the Complete Divine, from my understanding.)
- the positive energy may be used to cleanse souls, in a manner similar
to atonement (if a new feat is taken to use turn undead abilities to
this end)
- the negative energy can be used to summon undead
- ...
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| 
B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 08/22/2006 10:25 AM |
| Hmmm...those may be a little overpowered for general use. Basically, I look at the turning ability from a game balance point of view. Turning allows adventurers to deal with a creature type that has many immunities that could make it difficult for a low level party to deal with. It is only good against that creature type, and serves little purpose other than that (uness feats are taken). Now, when the feats are taken it alows the ability to perform a more general purpose, and gives it a wider range of application. These feats seldom have a signifigant impact...they are more flavour than anything really. Damage from them is relatively low, healing may effect a burst, but it is only a few points, minor resistance to energy. These are all effects that are as useful at lower levels as the turning ability is against undead. Once a character advances these abilities are not as useful as they once were...much like turning itself. At higher levels a party of adventurers have a much higher chance of defeating undead, and turning (at least in my opinion ) is used MUCH less at higher levels. The options that you put forward are very interesting, but I feel that they exceed the established power level for turning ability. The positive energy burst seems ok for power level...1 pt per cleric level and extra damage to undead, but the ability to use atonement and summon undead 3-9 times per day greatly increases the clerics power level. I would work on these a bit more. You may want to consider a creature substitution , much like the abilities gained by choosing the fire, water, earth, or air domains. If you have some very resilient creatures in your campaign world that are good enemies for the party at all levels, then you may want to consider abilites that will effect them specifically. This way you maintain the balance that the designers intended. Great ideas though, seriously, keep it up. I hope this helps a bit.  | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
| |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/22/2006 11:28 AM |
| Thanks for the detailed reply B, it indeed helps.
As a side note, i was not suggesting duplicating the atonement spell 3
or more times per days, i was looking at some type of atonement in a
larger sense (a bit like the priest that listens to your sins every
week), but i admit i have no idea how to concretely set this up. It
also appears to diverge away from the undead turning, which is contrary
to what i wanted, as i think about this.
I agree that monster summoning appears too powerful. Perhaps increasing
the power level of undead summoned (for evil clerics) would be good,
e.g. they are summonded as if under the effects of a prayer, or they
have 1 extra HP per cleric level... This would do mostly for evil
clerics however. And it's pretty darn specific, even moreso than
turning undead.
Affecting other creatures than undead with the turning ability could be
good too, although the enemies in my campaign are more of a traditional
form (humans, elves, orcs, ogres, dragons, demons, devils, dark elves).
Well, I could extend the turning ability to demons and devils.
Hmmm. Perhaps damage to any creature from another plane. How does this
sound (again, the basis of this is taken from my understanding of the
modified turning ability in the Complete Divine, although i do not own
the book):
Turn undead is now a damage-based cleric ability. When a good cleric
turns undead, he creates a 30' radius positive energy burst. All undead
creatures take 1d6 points of damage per cleric level (Will save half).
Also, there is the possibility to take the new following feat:
DIVINE FERVOR: When a cleric triggers his turn undead ability, all
creatures in the area of effect that differ from the cleric's
alignement along the good-evil axis (e.g. if the cleric is good, then
all neutral and evil creatures) take 1 point of damage (Will save
half). Furthermore, all extra-planar creatures of a differing alignment
along the good-evil axis take 1d3 points of damage per cleric level
(Will save half).
Even though the ability is a burst, i see it as a mental attack on the
creature's essence rather than an actual burst that you could
physically dodge, thus the Will save instead of the Reflex save. Any
thoughts on this specifically?
I took a name for the feat that might already exist somewhere... ? Dunno myself, but please say so if you are aware of that.
Also, i'm aware that some additional details will have to be ironed
out, but this is simply the core idea i'm looking at, from the
perspective of a good cleric.
Any suggestions? Or entirely new ideas?
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 08/22/2006 12:48 PM |
| Hmmm...more interesting ideas. I agree that the undead augmentation is definately speccific enough...perhaps too specific. I like the idea of being able to augment/restrict certain types of creatures. let me know what you think about these abilities: DIVINE LIGHT-- As a swift action you may expend a turning attempt to suffuse yourself with the light of creation for one minute. During this time you shed brilliant white light and provide illumination as bright as a lantern. All creatures with sensitivity to light (drow, orcs, etc..) and undead suffer a -1 on attacks and saves/ 4 cleric levels while within the illumination (3o ft radius, although shadowy illumination is spread for another 60 ft). DIVINE SHADOW: As a swift action you may expend a turning attempt to suffuse yourself with the darkness of the void for 1 minute. During this time all illumination within a 60 ft radius is limited to shadowy illumination. Torches burn low, and lanterns flicker casting disturbing shadow plays on the walls. In daylight outside those in the area feel a chill and the entire area darkens as if stormclouds blotted out the sun. Creatures with light sensitivity (orcs, drow, etc...) and undead recieve +1 on attacks and saves/ 4 cleric levels while within the shadowy area. You may want to limit the divine fervor to the good/evil axis. You don't want to damage your companions. Most parties that I have seen have a mix of lawful, neutral, and chaotic. I don't think that the party's barbarian or monk would take kindly to being damaged by it's cleric. Let me know what you think. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
| |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/22/2006 3:10 PM |
| B: i like your suggestion very much! I think this captures the idea of
the positive/negative energy channelled by clerics. I also like the
positive radiance or disturbing and chilling shadow.
A few minor points however: -1/4 cleric levels vs orcs and drow appears
strong for the bright light. Perhaps just leave it at their usual
penalties (-1), while the undead could suffer more from the light than
those creatures (maybe take some damage AND get the -1 penalty? For
example, 1d4 dam per level, Will save halves). For the shadow
part, i think that the cleric should be able to get some kind of
advantage from being in the shadow. Evil clerics, being capable under
the core turn undead ability, to cower or control undead, can only now
improve their stats. If undead attack the evil cleric, he's done for.
Gotta run, i'll think on this tomorrow.
A word on the good/evil axis on divine faror... isn't that what i suggested? (Not sure, can't see my post now.)
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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wildmage
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 08/22/2006 3:51 PM |
| One thing to keep in mind is that the cleric already has a veritable Swiss-Army knife of class abilities of which Turn Undead is but one (and of limited use on purpose because the cleric is already a great class). So is everything being discussed here in terms of additional effects that a cleric can get with feats while keeping the Turn Undead class ability as written, or are you talking about a complete rework of the class ability that would replace its current standard use (or the alternative version in Complete Divine)? I think the feats found in various sources that "expend" 1 or more daily Turn Undead uses to get an effect make a lot of sense without redoing and rebalancing the class ability. I would also leave it up to personal DM taste as to whether or not to use the direct damage version of Turn Undead from Complete Divine. If you're looking to redesign the class ability and call it something other than Turn Undead, then carefully consider that the cleric already has lots of options via spells and combat abilities, and so giving him/her even more "general use" class abilities (especially if they scale with level) could end up pushing the cleric class even more-so in the direction of overpowered. At the same time, you might completely handicap the party the next time they meet up with some kind of nasty undead.
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Champion of the Bone Naga
(There's just so much roleplaying to be done with a large skeletal snake!) | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/23/2006 7:27 AM |
| Thanks for your post wildmage. My intention behind this process is to
provide a turn undead class ability that could be used beyond undead,
since in my campaign i have few undead creatures roaming about
generally. Sure, there's the occasional zombie animated by an evil
cleric, but ever that's very rare. So i feel that the turn undead
feature of the cleric is almost useless. In a year and a half in my
present campaign, i think the cleric used the ability twice.
My intention is thus to develop either a new ability or an alternate
turning ability - preferably the latter, but i'm opened to any new
idea. Your point is good, in that this alternate ability must not be
overpowered considering that turn undead is not that strong an ability.
This fact should be considered in the new or alternate ability design.
At this point, i like the damage-dealing version of turn undead as
presented in Complete Divine (CD) (i don't have the book, but some kind
souls are explaining it to me in another thread). My intention would be
to expand on that to allow the turn undead ability to be usable more
frequently.
The feats proposed by B (divine light and shadow) and myself (divine
fervor) aim to do just that. If you have any thoughts on those feats,
for example if you feel that they would render the cleric slightly
overpowered, don't hesitate to say so, i'm hoping for this kind of
conversation! Or if you have other ideas, fire away!
Sky
| |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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