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Subject: Most ridiculous rules lawyering you have witnessed

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gss_000
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10/10/2006 8:11 AM  
What's stupid about the whole thing is it was so pervasive at the time. This was one of the reasons I started DMing in the first place, because I was having no fun when others who followed this type of style (and I wasn't involved in the reported incident) ran me through mods. It wasn't until high school (so a good 4-5 years later) that I rediscovered a desire to play.

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10/11/2006 9:05 PM  
When I was 15 ,me and my 2 cousins were playing on this kid's patio. We made up characters and bought equipment. I purchased a war dog which we established before we played I could use in combat ( it was 1st edition). We had 3 characters and the first thing he threw at us was an Owlbear. Well ;with good D&D fundamentals we killed it fast. The kid was an ass and he turned bright red and told us we had to fight it again without a dog. OK! We killed it again. Not being much of a RULES LAWYER the ass totally spazzed and just started spewing nonsense that I really could not even understand. My little cousin was tired of it and just walked off. Me and my cousin who is my age picked up his dice and beaned him with them like buckshot. I'm very proud of it and it comes up often at family occasions.

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10/13/2006 12:21 PM  
So he got mad because the party defeated the monster?

What was he trying to "win" the game?

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Oryan77
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10/13/2006 1:18 PM  
Posted By Count Dooku on 10/13/2006 12:21 PM
So he got mad because the party defeated the monster?

What was he trying to "win" the game?

DM's that try to "win" the game usually are doing that because they are "losing" in life.

We might get frustrated when we create a tough encounter and the players show us that it wasn't that tough. But I never understood why a DM gets mad when players kill off his stuff. If they don't kill them off, then you don't get to use bigger & cooler monsters down the road. Weirdos...

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10/13/2006 1:37 PM  
Totally..if the PCs lose...then EVERYONE loses..including the DM.

A TPK ends the adventure..duh. Why some noob DMs dont realize this immediatly I'll never know.

DM love to cackle with evil glee and tell the players he cant wait to use the 3 Pit Fiends he pulled from his Bloodwar cases...
But its a bluff tactic to make the players sweat...DM really hate to see PCs die.
Even if a single PC dies and its not a TPK...The survivors usually exit the dungeon and trek back to town and pay for raise the dead magic and stuff like that..it really grinds the game to a halt.

OK rant over

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10/13/2006 2:35 PM  
Posted By Count Dooku on 10/13/2006 1:37 PM
DM love to cackle with evil glee and tell the players he cant wait to use the 3 Pit Fiends he pulled from his Bloodwar cases...
But its a bluff tactic to make the players sweat...DM really hate to see PCs die.

We must have been in the same class when we got our DMing degree!

I'm always rooting for the players to win. I can't wait for them to level up just as much as they can't wait. But I always make an effort to appear like I'm trying extremely hard to kill them even when I'm not. I'll boast about how badass an NPC is or I'll go into detail  when I describe a scene just to build up suspense and make them worried...even when I know this NPC  is about to get a butt whooping and I think it's the worst NPC I've ever created.

Then there's the old, roll an attack and say, "Ohhhhhhhhh man, this is gonna hurt." with a huge smile on my face. The players get nervous and then I say, "cause I just rolled a natural one and he misses you bigtime."

That gets them every time But I do have to curse at my dice just to show that I'm "hurt" for missing them with a natural 1.

I'm also amazed at how often I hear about DM's doing a TPK. You always have the power to prevent a TPK somehow or another. Even if one player survives, it's better than nothing. I will never understand why a DM will follow through with a TPK that will end that adventure, or cause him to backtrack a bit so the new PC's can continue the adventure. What a waste of time.


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gss_000
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10/13/2006 3:27 PM  
For all I've said, I don't mind TPK. I think without that risk the game loses something. For me, TPKs should be reserved for extreme player stupidity, when they do something that they really shouldn't with many clues that they should just stop what they are doing. In no way would I ever plan or try for it. I also root for the payers.

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10/14/2006 2:23 PM  
I root for the players, but at the same time i prepare some tough encounters that i try to play out as fairly as possible, using all tactics available for the opponents. I've only killed a single PC in the present campaign, and 2 other NPCs that were very close to the PCs (in the same combat).

I don't really cackle with glee when my monsters hit or when someone dies. If killing PCs was what i wanted, they'd of course all be dead 2 minutes inot the game.

I see D&D as a game by which you build a fun virtual enviroment and dynamic with all players around the table. The combats are only part of that.

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yack
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10/15/2006 8:28 AM  
What DM would want to kill the players...hello players are dead = game is dead = you are now not a DM because you have no game.
Its bound to happen though I have killed the odd player but I never do it on purpose. I will also be honest also I have cheated once or twice behind the DM board to make the players live so that the game can continue.

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10/16/2006 8:52 AM  
I think if you go around killing players you have a lot more pressing concerns than the lack of a D&D game.

So far, only 1 PC has died in my current campaign and that was through his own folly. One of the players decided he wanted some action during down-time cos his PC was close to levelling up, so he wanted to locate a "pit fight." A few gather info checks later and he tracks one down in an old warehouse in the docks. I warned him that the opponents were randomly drawn but he didn't care. He assumed, I think, that I wouldn't throw something too powerful at him, but when I said random I meant it. He was a level 2 rogue, his opponent ended up being a lvl 4 bugbear barbarian. The fight was over in a single round.

I felt bad about it, but as the player choose to seek out an unknown situation that I wanred him might be way out of his league. The world exists beyond the PCs. I scale adventures to their level but there is a lot of stuff out there that is not scaled to them, and if they choose to seek it out then the chips fall where they may.

As a DM I want the PCs to win. It is more fun for all of us that way. When a plyer rolls a natural 20 my heart races as I pray for them to verify the crit. I like nothing more than seeing them conquer over my NPCs, and it is especially gratifying cos I play the NPCs tough and smart.

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gss_000
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10/16/2006 8:59 AM  
Wow. Thats a case where the character got what they deserved. That woud be the only case where I wouldn't feel bad about killing a character.

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10/16/2006 2:47 PM  
We have a DM that looks at all our character sheets to specifically target our weaknesses. Needless to say, us players are about to give the DM the boot. To give an example of what he is like:

I entered the campaign as it was in progress so I had to make a couple of 13th level characters. He only allows the core books. So I made a wizard. He said I HAD to be a specialist. Ok no problem, I became an evoker. I forgot what prohibited schools I chose but I had Finger of Death as one of my spells. We faced a large dragon and I killed it with one shot thanks to Finger of Death. Ok, here's the messed up part. He asked for my character sheet in between sessions. When we played next, he had changed my prohibited schools and what spelsl I had known in my spellbook. You guessed it, I no longer had Necromancy as one of the schools I could cast. He also changed the other prohibited school to enchantment. He also completely redid all my feats on both my characters. That was the only time that happened but it still was bad.

Now I can related to a DM that likes to 'win' all the time. Someone mentioned that people that lose in real life are prone to do this. Well I totally agree! It's just funny every week finding out what ways he's devised to make our spells and abilities useless against the monsters. So far I've come up with ways to still defeat him with my wizard and I can tell he hates it. I probably give it one or two more sessions before we dump the whole thing.

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Oryan77
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10/16/2006 5:57 PM  
Posted By TYGRHobbes on 10/16/2006 2:47 PM
We have a DM that looks at all our character sheets to specifically target our weaknesses.

I sometimes target the PC's weaknesses. Nothing more than doing things like casting reflex spells at someone else besides the rogue because any trained wizard will know roguish looking fellas that are backstabbing his minions will have a better chance at surviving his reflex save spells. Or NPC's might be doing touch attacks on the heavily armored guys. Or John Doe is the only party member without cold resistances, so he gets the full blast of a cold spell "by chance". I'll only do this when I want a big encounter to really feel challenging and I need the NPC's to appear more strategic.

I dont' actually think there's anything wrong with targetting a PC's weakness as long as you are always reviewing their sheets to play off there strengths too. If Joe Blow has immunity to fire, it's a good idea to purposely target Joe blow with the occasional Fireball just so he can laugh at you and say, "HA HA you idiot! I'm immune to fire! Man Ryan, you'd think you'd stop targeting me with fireballs by now". Then you secretely get to think to yourself, "Am I the idiot for casting fireballs at him with an NPC that shouldn't know he is immune to fire, or is he the idiot for metagaming & having a Player vs DM attitude rather than a PC vs NPC attitude".



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gss_000
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10/16/2006 7:10 PM  
This is always a tricky line to walk. I know I've been frustrated when, for insance, game after game has encounters that restrict movement and my haracters can't get into combat. Wen DMs continually make encounters to shut down character's schticks, it's more than annoying, it ruins the game. I like to let players have their cheese, because I'll be bringing mine as well

That said, I like what Oryan said. Sometimes it just make sense to target the big fighter with will saves, or wizards an fort saves, and I won't shoot one arrow at an obvious monk. And when it omes to super intelligent foes, the only real way I can figure to play that is by "cheating" and using my out of game knowledge in in-game combats. But that has to be the exception, not the rule, else players are just going to leave.

If a DM pulled off that crap that you received TYGRHobes, I'd be out of there that session.

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10/16/2006 8:08 PM  
I agree very much with both of your comments. I'm not against playing off a character's weaknesses (I do it sometimes as a DM) but when it's a constant thing every single game it gets old fast. I have never seen him let a player use his strengths unless he makes a mistake in judging an ability or spell. I think this whole thing comes down to the fact that he's not very creative or even a very good gamer in general.

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gss_000
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10/16/2006 10:11 PM  
May I ask why you let him DM? I think you said in another post if I remember correctly that you have 4 DMs in your group. Is it just his turn? As an outsider (which makes having a strong opinion much easier ) I'd think he'd have been called on this horrendous behavior.

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10/16/2006 11:44 PM  
As a GM, I would do everything in my power to avoid a TPK unless the players had shown utter stupidity (or if they hated the campaign and wanted a quick way out). I do, however, admit to enjoying the cursing of my PC's a bit more than I should. I've got a wickedly juicy one going right now: the character periodically forms parasites within his body; they emerge during combat, cause havoc, and burrow back in once the last enemy falls. Great fun. =)

Regarding TYGRHobbes' GM, changing a player's character sheet without his/her permission is a gross abuse of GM power. I'd have that sorry excuse for a GM out on his @ss at the very next session, or else start looking for another group.

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10/17/2006 3:14 AM  

This guy is not part of the store DM group (he would have been tossed there). I started playing with this DM quite a while ago when a friend got me back into D&D and I wanted to learn the new system. That's why I didn't quit the group. We play very rarely now, which is probably a good thing.


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10/17/2006 11:13 AM  
The character sheet modification is quite extreme. I would have mentioned my frustration immediately, and unless he came up with very good arguments (and i can see very few if any), i'd have left the game there and then.

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10/18/2006 11:06 AM  
I never touch players character sheets. I take a look at them after each level gained (to know the change)... But changing a character... That's dull!

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10/18/2006 12:48 PM  
If a DM even wrote on my character sheet I'd be ticked off. If I made a mistake, they can tell me about it and I'll change it. But altering a character sheet yourself is just rude & annoying.

I guess if a DM made changes to my character because he didn't like something, I'd just get mad, hand him back the sheet and say, "Sorry, I didn't realize you wanted me to play your character. I was looking to play one of my own characters. I'll have to bail out of this group."


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10/18/2006 1:05 PM  
I should have done exactly that. The only reason I stayed was because it was the only group around at the time and I was new to 3.5 and I wanted to learn it. Now I only stay for the sake of the other players but they are getting wary as well. This whole adventure went from being a rpg to a novel and we are just along for the ride. Another newb DM mistake

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gss_000
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10/18/2006 9:02 PM  
That stinks. Do you think you can improve things by talking it out with the DM?

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10/18/2006 9:31 PM  

I think it's a lost cause now unfortunately. We're going to give it a few more sessions as I think he's starting to get the picture now.


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10/18/2006 11:59 PM  
I must admit I have edited a character before though nothing like skills/feats/etc.
I often go through and audit them however, and correct spellings for important names/items and that sort of house keeping. In red pen.
If I see something that shouldnt be that is player selected like skills... I tell the player to change it, not do it myself.

DM's that use you as novels aint good. Unless you know and are willing... thinking dragonlance...

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11/08/2006 7:00 AM  
I played with this one guy. He was such a RL. I dont remember any specifics but I know he used to irritate the crap out of me. He would only say something when it benefitted him to do so. He finally started to get the picture after dying for the fourth time. lol

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11/08/2006 9:05 AM  
That reminds me of a person I hate to play with who wants D&D to be as realistic as possible and takes "what my character would do" to a rediculous extreme. For instance, he loves to play rangers, and never walks around with his bow strung because in real life this would destroy the weapon. So every combat he starts by restringing his bow, even when there is nothing in the rules for stuff like that. That's one of his less annoying habits. I wish he'djust relax a little.

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11/11/2006 9:31 AM  
Posted By gss_000 on 11/08/2006 9:05 AM
That reminds me of a person I hate to play with who wants D&D to be as realistic as possible and takes "what my character would do" to a rediculous extreme. For instance, he loves to play rangers, and never walks around with his bow strung because in real life this would destroy the weapon. So every combat he starts by restringing his bow, even when there is nothing in the rules for stuff like that. That's one of his less annoying habits. I wish he'djust relax a little.
cast Shrink Item on his bowstring just before combat.  Ask for 5 gp tax to speak the command word and restore it.



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11/13/2006 9:20 AM  
I think the last thing I need to do is slow combat even more and create more arguments.

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11/20/2006 8:02 AM  
We made the mistake of letting our rules lawyer try to DM an epic level campaign. Ranked as one of the stupider things our group has ever done. First he set us up as two oppoising teams on either side of a war. Not wise. Then he made each player do an individual mission so the rest of us sat there bored for hours on end. Then when we didn't do as he wanted he threatened us with a 30th level balor fighter that he had stated up for the sole purpose of cajoling us. Stunning waste of a day.
As for the TPK I'm currently finding it quite hard to avoid as I play with a guy who is a wargamer and as such excel as the tactical element. He often wipes the floor with challenges at his level so I have to make them difficult to keep thing challenging. The problem is when he is not on his usual tactical form it can be hard to stop a TPK as he faces such strong opposition. It is a hard line to walk but as of yet he has survived.

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11/20/2006 8:57 PM  
Posted By Sulaco on 09/26/2006 9:47 AM
Well, there is a poster on the Wizards boards right now who maintains that you can ready an action to attack someone who makes and attack of opportunity against you. His reasoning is that it is not specifically disallowed so it must be allowed. That seems pretty darn ridiculous to me.

The reason this wouldn't work is that in order to do something to provoke an attack of opportunity after you have readied an action to attack someone who makes an attack of opportunity against you, you forfeit the readied action.  The readied action has to be the last thing you do on your turn.

If you have moved, which will provoke an attack of opportunity, and want to ready an action after moving, the attack of opportunity will come before you can ready your action.

The reason that the rules don't specifically say that you can't do what he wants is that there aren't any situations in which it would be possible for his readied action to work.

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11/20/2006 9:01 PM  
Posted By Bert the Troll on 10/02/2006 8:54 PM
If it was first edition, monster didn't need to eat, breath, defecate or anything else while they waited for adventurers in thier 10x10 rooms.

LOL...I remember lots of 10x10 rooms.  Think how little would fit into a 10x10 room now.  I think this is one reason that Red Hand of Doom had maps that were too small in many instances--in past D&D, people drew maps where the rooms looked big enough.  They just wouldn't actually be big enough when you add the items/objects in the room, the monsters, and the characters.

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11/20/2006 9:11 PM  
Although it can go in the opposite direction, too. When you think about it, even pesants live in luxury. Everyone has a 5' x 10' bed. That's huge! I think someone figured out if you want to make a house that's really giant sized, just go by the standard room dimensions in most mods now.

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11/20/2006 9:17 PM  
Posted By TYGRHobbes on 10/16/2006 2:47 PM
We have a DM that looks at all our character sheets to specifically target our weaknesses. Needless to say, us players are about to give the DM the boot. To give an example of what he is like:

I entered the campaign as it was in progress so I had to make a couple of 13th level characters. He only allows the core books. So I made a wizard. He said I HAD to be a specialist. Ok no problem, I became an evoker. I forgot what prohibited schools I chose but I had Finger of Death as one of my spells. We faced a large dragon and I killed it with one shot thanks to Finger of Death. Ok, here's the messed up part. He asked for my character sheet in between sessions. When we played next, he had changed my prohibited schools and what spelsl I had known in my spellbook. You guessed it, I no longer had Necromancy as one of the schools I could cast. He also changed the other prohibited school to enchantment. He also completely redid all my feats on both my characters. That was the only time that happened but it still was bad.

Now I can related to a DM that likes to 'win' all the time. Someone mentioned that people that lose in real life are prone to do this. Well I totally agree! It's just funny every week finding out what ways he's devised to make our spells and abilities useless against the monsters. So far I've come up with ways to still defeat him with my wizard and I can tell he hates it. I probably give it one or two more sessions before we dump the whole thing.

I think the DM is going way beyond what a DM can do in a situation like that.  If a DM approves choices you make in creating or levelling your character (and he does approve by default if he does not check each time a new character is introduced or what choices are made when you level up), then he has no right to change your character after he has let you adventure with it.  I wouldn't continue playing with a DM who did that.  I would find other people to play with.

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11/20/2006 9:25 PM  
Posted By gss_000 on 11/20/2006 9:11 PM
Although it can go in the opposite direction, too. When you think about it, even pesants live in luxury. Everyone has a 5' x 10' bed. That's huge! I think someone figured out if you want to make a house that's really giant sized, just go by the standard room dimensions in most mods now.

I think the problem with beds is that people think that they need all the accessories to be on a 5' scale.  The bed should be 2-3 feet by about 6-7 feet.  It shouldn't go all the way across either the 5' or the 10' dimension of two adjacent squares.

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11/21/2006 8:54 AM  
Yeah, creatures take up a 5' X 5' space when they stand vertically and fight. Otherwise, creatures don't need 5' X 5'. And the bed doesn't need to be 10' long (although i wouldn't mind such a bed myself).

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12/03/2006 6:55 PM  
Posted By Skyscraper on 11/21/2006 8:54 AM
Yeah, creatures take up a 5' X 5' space when they stand vertically and fight. Otherwise, creatures don't need 5' X 5'. And the bed doesn't need to be 10' long (although i wouldn't mind such a bed myself).

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12/05/2006 11:32 PM  
sorry to stray from the topic at hand, but ive got a good story. i was starting my characters off at 7th or 8th level and im fairly open when it comes to character creation. the first thing this guy says is he wants to be a vampire. i thought this was interesting. i mentioned to him a small inconvience to an adventuring vampire, the sun. i mean short of spf 5000, a vampire is fried in the sun. he says "no problem, ill take sunlight adaptation as my first feat." i sat stunned, a feat made for drizzt wannabes, its not specific on who can take it. "says here that it nullifies any negitive effect of the sun or bright light. i think turning into dust is a negative effect." the guy wanted to be blade. so i outsmarted him, i said "sorry, but i dont play with forgotten realms sourcebooks, but if you can find that feat in another book, id be glad to accomidate." it never entered his mind to ask if i dont play forgotten realms why i had the book to begin with.

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12/06/2006 7:12 AM  
You actually brought the topic back to its original intent.

Anyways, good thing he didn't throw Libris Mortis into the mix. It doesn't solve the problem of the sun, but it does make it more reasonable (or unreasonable as you see it). That reminds me that in the Ptolus campaign I'm playing in, an NPC mafia type has a vampire bodyguard (both seem sketchy but so far not outright evil. I'm waiting for that shoe to drop), which we found out about when a city wide anti-magic field sprung up beyond everyone's control and took down all of his protections. It being noon he became a great pillar of fire but unfortunately made it to shelter in time.

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