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Subject: Q: Can I Sneak Attack Using a Huge or Guargantuan Greatsword?

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dj-chuckles
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09/26/2006 12:18 AM  
Ok.

I have a Goliath
Who uses a Great Sword
Monkey Grip
Wield Oversized Weapon
Balanced

Large
Huge
Guargantuan
Colossal sized Weapons

Its a 2 handed blade... say I was flanking someone

Could I still get sneak attack damage

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09/26/2006 8:15 AM  
Powerul Build, Wield Oversized Weapon, and Monkey Grip do not stack. You can wield a weapon one size larger than normal, nothing more.

Sorry, man, but you've wasted several feat selections.

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09/26/2006 10:06 AM  
You can use any weapon to get a sneak attack as long as they lose their dex bonus or they're flanked. The exception is with ranged weapons, you must be within 30ft.

The only question I have is what class are you using to gain the sneak attack ability? Because most of those classes are only proficient in simple weapons and a few select martial weapons. I don't know of one that grants a Great Sword proficiency.

Heck, in the Gamers movie the rogue used a Ballista to backstab. The rules don't say you can't

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09/26/2006 10:19 AM  
Read Wield oversized Weapon again.... You need Monkey Grip for that feat

Posted By WakeXX on 09/25/2006 4:49 AM
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09/26/2006 4:56 PM  
Can you show how you are getting a colossal weapon? I'm only getting to Gargantuan by:

Huge greatsword are like Large greats sword (Wield Oversized Weapon) for no penalty (Goliath Large Build)
or Gargantuan greatsword with -2 penalty (Monkey grip).

How do you get to Colossal if you don't mind saying? Thanks.

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09/26/2006 5:34 PM  
Even if you can wield such a big sword by the rules, how do you travel with it? You can't exactly walk into a bar with a weapon that's bigger than the bar. You can't sheath it. If you are walking around with it in your hands 24/7 you'll just look like an idiot.

Compare the sword that the Storm Giant mini is holding to the medium sized Goliath mini. That's only a Huge sized sword and look at how much bigger it is compared to the Goliath.

You're talking about wielding a Guargantuan & Colossal sized Greatsword? At some point, I gotta tell my players to be realistic. No amount of feats can justify a medium sized character using such weapons.

There has to be some kind of rule about not being able to wield weapons that are 2 or more size categories larger than you.

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09/26/2006 6:53 PM  
Psychic Warrior power... Call weaponry

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09/26/2006 7:09 PM  
Balanced weapon I believe give you colassal.

Posted By WakeXX on 09/25/2006 4:49 AM
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09/26/2006 9:07 PM  
Posted By dj-chuckles on 09/26/2006 7:09 PM
Balanced weapon I believe give you colassal.

I thought that only allowed you to wield a weapon in one hand that normaly needed 2, not allowed you to wield a larger weapon like the other feats would.  Now that still is cool becuase you don't have to give up a shield with a Gargantuan Greatsword in one hand.Â


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09/26/2006 9:12 PM  
oohh... Dual Wielding Guargantuan Swords! Awesomeness!

Posted By WakeXX on 09/25/2006 4:49 AM
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09/26/2006 9:28 PM  
Just be careful, the penalties will star stacking. And if you can't hit, it's useless.

But the image is quite amusing.

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09/26/2006 9:34 PM  
The Quientessential Fighter II has some fun items....

Posted By WakeXX on 09/25/2006 4:49 AM
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09/26/2006 9:36 PM  
Never read it. I'm always a little woried about non WOTC books.

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09/26/2006 9:37 PM  
that book I got for 1 weapon
the Wallblade

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09/27/2006 7:59 AM  
Regardless of the absurdity of the melee weapon, you can sneak attack with it.

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09/27/2006 9:00 AM  
Posted By Oryan77 on 09/26/2006 10:06 AM

The only question I have is what class are you using to gain the sneak attack ability? Because most of those classes are only proficient in simple weapons and a few select martial weapons. I don't know of one that grants a Great Sword proficiency.



yeah, I'm curious about this as well. Does this pc have a level in rogue?

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09/27/2006 9:01 AM  
Posted By Oryan77 on 09/26/2006 5:34 PM
Even if you can wield such a big sword by the rules, how do you travel with it? You can't exactly walk into a bar with a weapon that's bigger than the bar. You can't sheath it. If you are walking around with it in your hands 24/7 you'll just look like an idiot.

Compare the sword that the Storm Giant mini is holding to the medium sized Goliath mini. That's only a Huge sized sword and look at how much bigger it is compared to the Goliath.

You're talking about wielding a Guargantuan & Colossal sized Greatsword? At some point, I gotta tell my players to be realistic. No amount of feats can justify a medium sized character using such weapons.

There has to be some kind of rule about not being able to wield weapons that are 2 or more size categories larger than you.

I agree.
It's a total absurdity that I would definitely disallow as a DM.

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Sulaco
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09/27/2006 10:06 AM  
Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

This doesn't list a specific upper-limit beyond "If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all." The thing is that these feats alter that limit. Persoanlly, I would never let anyone go more than 2 size catagories larger, so a medium-sized creature could never go larger than huge weapon (and even that is stretching it IMO).

DJ, can you post the text of the feats you listed?

BTW, what is a Wallblade?

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09/27/2006 10:11 AM  
Just check the complete warrior.. I cant post text because its WotC product

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09/27/2006 12:45 PM  
Posted By Ghendar on 09/27/2006 9:00 AM

yeah, I'm curious about this as well. Does this pc have a level in rogue?

Wield Oversized Weapon is an Epic Feat.  A character taking it would have to be at least 21st level (more is he does not have fighter BAB).  A character that can take the feat, even if he was a full rogue, has enough feats to take Martial Weapon Proficiency Greatsword if he doesn't have it already from some other class.

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09/27/2006 1:20 PM  

ok- you use a glove of storing to carry it around, then animate it with spells- like telekinesis.
but, could a rogue using telekinesis sneak attack?


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09/27/2006 5:09 PM  
Posted By Ethandrul on 09/27/2006 1:20 PM

ok- you use a glove of storing to carry it around, then animate it with spells- like telekinesis.
but, could a rogue using telekinesis sneak attack?


Gloves of Storing can only hold a 20lb item. They also require that the item be held with one hand.

Telekinesis doesn't actually allow you to fight with the weapon. You can do things like bull rush & trip, or you can throw the weapon. But you can only throw a maximum of 25lbs per caster lvl with a maximum of 325. I'm sure a colossal or guargantuan greatsword weighs more than that.

I don't see any reason a rogue couldn't sneak attack with telekinesis as if it was a ranged attack and the target loses his dex bonus or is flanked within range.



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09/27/2006 9:15 PM  
I just wanted to know if it was possible... The question was answered

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09/29/2006 8:11 AM  
Lets see- actual bastard swords weigh in at about 3.5 lbs, so large would be what- 10 lbs? and a huge would be 20 lbs or would it be 40? regardless- you can hold it in onehand- as long as it is resting on the ground. ( of course i would not allow this to work) there is a spell that allows you to use a weapon from a distance- might be in spell compendium.

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09/29/2006 9:29 AM  
Every time you doulbe size multiple volume - and thus weight - by eight. A collossal sword would weigh 3.5 lbs x8 (large) x8 (huge) x8 (garg.) x8 (col.) for a total of 14,336 lbs.. That assumes real-world physics, though. In D&D the weight doubles for every size category, does it not? So that weapon would be only a feather-light 56 pounds rather then the truckload 14,336.

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09/29/2006 11:05 AM  
Posted By Sulaco on 09/29/2006 9:29 AM
Every time you doulbe size multiple volume - and thus weight - by eight. A collossal sword would weigh 3.5 lbs x8 (large) x8 (huge) x8 (garg.) x8 (col.) for a total of 14,336 lbs.. That assumes real-world physics, though. In D&D the weight doubles for every size category, does it not? So that weapon would be only a feather-light 56 pounds rather then the truckload 14,336.


No D&D follows the X8 law of physics, enlarge and righteous might both double size and increase weight by a factor of 8.

So 14,336 lbs. is right, maybe strength 50 but not strength 20 .

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09/29/2006 6:10 PM  

So by this argument, the Tarrasque or CRD, a colossal creature, with a 45 STR, couldn't pick up a colossal sword if it wanted to. Physics and logic breaks down with weapons. I think it really is problematic that they have that paragraph that says weapon size categories are different than creature sizes. I do agree it gets silly after awhile, but if you want to let it go, more power to you. If not, more power to you as well.

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10/02/2006 12:15 PM  
Man I hate over the top powerbuilding, it really ruins the game. As a DM I would just say 'no' use some common sense. Here is something to think about, a guargantuan greatsword would be 40 feet long and useless in 99% of all encounters that aren't in a open field. M 5', L 10', H 20', G 40', C 80'

Do you really need to kill everything in one swing? Sounds pretty boring to me.

I would also say in my adventure that you can't backstab a creature of say medium size sword with a sword that is as big as its whole body. Can't exactly aimed for a vital spot when the sword is 5x the size of the target.

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10/02/2006 6:25 PM  
Powerbuilding might ruin your game, and that's fine, but if their game is based around it then it's their problem and their game. I've had fun in some games being maxed out to the fullest, other games it can be a detriment and I was happy not to be as effective as I could have made the character.

Besides, this character build is epic. The spells and monsters at this stage of the game are just as rediculous in their own way, and no one complains about epic mages with the same venom as epic figter-type builds.

Let pople play the game they want to play. D&D should be inclusive for everyone to have fun the way they want to.

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10/03/2006 2:02 AM  
ooo.... Whirlwind attack with a weapon that size.... Muhaha

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10/03/2006 11:52 AM  
Posted By gss_000 on 10/02/2006 6:25 PM
Powerbuilding might ruin your game, and that's fine, but if their game is based around it then it's their problem and their game. I've had fun in some games being maxed out to the fullest, other games it can be a detriment and I was happy not to be as effective as I could have made the character.

Besides, this character build is epic. The spells and monsters at this stage of the game are just as rediculous in their own way, and no one complains about epic mages with the same venom as epic figter-type builds.

Let pople play the game they want to play. D&D should be inclusive for everyone to have fun the way they want to.

I don't necessarily agree with this And i am of a mind to let people play the game they want to play, most of the time.

However, i think it is reasonable to mention that we think it is silly to wield a 20-foot (or larger!) sword within the rules of D&D. And i do think it is silly.

Even if you could impart a movement to such a heavy object, you'd be carried with it due to the lack of your own weight compared to its weight. So you'd be flying around. And even if you could wield it somehow, how fast do you do it? As fast as a colossal creature? It should take time to shift the weight unless you're ridiculously strong (like, stronger than storm giants), and consequently any opponent should be able to hit you 10 times before your sword thumps on the ground where your opponent was standing 30 seconds ago. Then, combat assumes sword play, back-and-forth thrusts and feints, parrying the other's sword swipe with your own sword, moving your sword this way and that... you can't possibly think that you would be able to follow that can of rythm with an overly large weapon. You'd be grounded by an oversized weapon, become an easy target, be late for every action, ...

Those are only some arguments that come to mind, among the many inconsistencies of wielding such an oversized weapon. If such things were to be allowed, i think the character should be strong enough in his legs to jump 10 kilometers in a single leap, and run through and destroy any castle wall with a 10-foot running start. At least that would be consistent.

Edit: so the problem as i see it is not allowing a medium-sized character to wield a colossal weapon, but rather to allow it while trying to maintain other rules unchanged when they are linked together in my mind.

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10/03/2006 5:45 PM  
Oh, I meant in no way anyone can't comment that they disagree with the idea. I'd hate to suppress comment. It was just one of the phrases hit a nerve, that certain types of play ruins the game. I've seen this kind of thread permeate other boards that I no longer post on because it was getting so elitist and I didn't want that happening here. If it was too much, I apologise.

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10/04/2006 8:14 AM  
Posted By gss_000 on 10/03/2006 5:45 PM
Oh, I meant in no way anyone can't comment that they disagree with the idea. I'd hate to suppress comment. It was just one of the phrases hit a nerve, that certain types of play ruins the game. I've seen this kind of thread permeate other boards that I no longer post on because it was getting so elitist and I didn't want that happening here. If it was too much, I apologise.

I know what you're talking about, i've seen it happen. Some (often self-proclaimed) "purists" don't accept some alternate gaming rules, and think that their rules is THE way to play the game. I do not agree with that. But some things go too far in my (very humble) opinion, and wielding colossal weapons that are larger than small buildings is one of them, if you want to keep the rest of the rules unchanged, including the usual laws of physics on how objects of different sizes interact with each other.

This being said, if some players like using those rules, by alls means i hope (and assume) they'll do so. I'm just voicing my opinion to contribute to the discussion. Perhaps, by the end, my own opinion will have evolved slightly on this matter, and perhaps others' opinions will also have evolved slightly, hopefully to the benefit of all.

And i don't think your comment went too far. I simply disagree with my understanding of the content of your post

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10/04/2006 10:44 AM  
Been Dming for 20 years plus and it is just my opinion based on my experiences. Those players I have that have been only focused on powerbuilding at the expense of roleplaying and all else have not seemed to get as much fun out of the game. They get angry when they run into a situation that is outside their narrow power build, in this example any underground adventure would render the 40 foot long sword completely useless and the character would likely be unhappy. Seen this many times, makes the DM job hard, like people to have fun and be happy. It would be funny as a DM though, have a monster come up behind the fighter with 40 foot sword in an average 10ft wide passage. The weilder couldn't even turn the weapon around. Make for some good 3 stooges style comic relief, and the monsters would have a full belly.

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10/04/2006 11:46 AM  
I've been DMing and playing for about as long as you have, gausse, and what I've found that if the game is clear, people adjust. As I've gotten older and played longer I've seen that when everyone discusses these things from the get go, along with their consequences, it all works out in the end because no one is surprised. I think everyone has to be on the same page. If the players have one idea and the DM another, that's when things go wrong.

But I must admit, I like putting cheesy combinations together depending on the campaign. Rediculousness is fun sometimes, but I run any combinations with my DM before I do it.

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10/05/2006 5:16 AM  
It's up to the DM to set the tone and limits of his/her campaign. That's really what it comes down to. On a philosphical level, I'm more on par with gausse. However, if the campaign is designed from the get go to incorporate over the top power building then it's okay. That could be fun too as a DM because if the players are going to power build for their PCs, then I, as the DM, can also do it for their opponents. :evilgrin:

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