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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
    
Australia
 | | 10/03/2006 3:59 AM |
| http://merricb.multiply.com/journal/item/115
Just a few musings on how D&D has changed over the years, particularly in regard to adventure & encounter design. There's more to be said on the subject, though not just at the moment!
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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mordulin
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 10/03/2006 6:32 AM |
| | Interesting read Merric, I would agree with you that it doesn't matter if its AD&D or 3.x if an avenue to vent frustrations exist people will use it. I used to work at a comic book/game store and trust me, you heard all kinds of complaints and complements about x system or z game or y character. I personally am a fan of the CR system as it does serve as a rough guide for where to start when making adventures for my players. Finally if people want a freeform xp system again they are more than welcome to use the variant rule in the back of Unearthed Arcana that gives a freeform XP to everything. Remember the GOLDEN RULE of DnD, You as DM have final say on what you use and don't use and how you play the game if you don't like something, change it. It's your game kids, have fun! | |
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| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 10/03/2006 6:40 AM |
| Rules lawyers and rules disputes have existed in every edition. 3.x is no better or worse in my estimation.
On the subject of CR, I think it's fine as a guide but needs situational tweaking by the DM. However, way back in 1st ED when we had no such guide I didn't have any large problems designing encounters.
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No Hazel, no peace 
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 10/03/2006 11:36 AM |
| I think that ignoring that 3e is rules-heavy is impossible. More rules = more rules discussion. I still prefer 3e to its predecessors, but you have to call a cat a cat.
As for CR, i still can't understand why people get into a fit over that. I recall that the 1e monster manual had a "level rating" for each monster, from I to X (in roman numbers mind you). It was a relative indication of the strength of the monster. And all strong monsters were level X, so when you dealth with monsters of that strength, the level wasn't that helpful.
In the end, encounters are often more circumstancial than anything else as far as i'm concerned: who surprises who, is the environment to the advantage of one party (e.g. archers on the other side of a cliff, a black dragon able to dive in and out of a deep swamp, ...), do the opponents have strengths that can take advantage of the other party's weaknesses, and so on. But still, it helps to have a general guideline of the strength of an opponent, and CR is just that: a general guideline, no more.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/04/2006 12:15 PM |
| | PCs do seem to do better than the CR would suggest, but not by so much that the system is broken. As Merric said, I have a much beter idea if a challenge is appropriate with CR than with what level of a dungeon you find the monster. During the time of AD&D I used those modules Merric mentioned primarily. Whn I made my own, they were always way too weak. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 10/08/2006 12:46 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 10/03/2006 6:40 AM
Rules lawyers and rules disputes have existed in every edition. 3.x is no better or worse in my estimation.
On the subject of CR, I think it's fine as a guide but needs situational tweaking by the DM. However, way back in 1st ED when we had no such guide I didn't have any large problems designing encounters.
Didn't play enough 3E to be sure, but it looks like newer generations don't accept the golden rule (or rule 0 if you prefer) as easily as before. In the 1E/2E times, there was no problem with it : when we had a new DM, he just needed to tell us the main rules he had changed, and it was OK. Some used the weapon vs armor chart, some not. Some allowed magic resistance vs dragon breath, some not. Some obliged the spellcasters to strictly handle spell components, some didn't even bother with that. Some used the undead turning charts "by the book", some made their own version. I'm not even talking about initiative... I even had a DM who allowed spell + magic item in the same round, and even spell + 1st-level spell (and believe it or not it worked. Of course the 1st combat of the day was usually pretty easy, but spellcasters got depleted of their spells VERY fast, and were very quiet thereafter... they usually ended up managing their spells as they did before, and use this rule in very rare cases). The list goes on and on. The main disputes were about spell descriptions (some of them were rather vague), and about situations happening during the adventures ; these were usually the worst ones, as players were really pissed of that their masterplan to handle a difficulty was not accepted by the DM, and feeling that his explanations weren't good enough. But that kind of dispute can happen in ANY edition.
I don't have yet DMed 3E, but my players had better accept rule 0 and not tell me that I must not do this or that because an obscure paragraph in "Complete mage 6" says the opposite. Or they might leave my game sooner than think. I'm the DM, I make the rules. Period.
Oh and BTW I almost never had players complain about my houserules. They probably aren't that bad...
On the subject of designing encounters : I don't see where the problem is. When I began ADD I played a dozen of games, I read the MM1 and FF a bit and I began writing my own adventures. I recall that they worked quite well (no TPK, but no easy time for the players either). CR is probably a good tool for very novice DMs, but I'm not sure it's needed when the DM masters the game enough. A reasonably experienced player/DM knows about weapons/monsters damages, which attacks and spells are really deadly (i.e. individual or area), etc.
Or maybe old-editioners are brighter than newer gamers 
Or maybe it's the fact that older editions were deadlier than 3E, and the death of a character was more easily accepted at the time.
And BTW all encounters don't have to be well-balanced. The adventure you're playing has its own logic. I mean a group of 5th-level characters should not have a problem dispatching the two 1st-level guards of the mage's guild tower. But they will surely die if they try to fight the archmage leader (and his summoned air elemental pets) and pilfer his room. Players have to be smart sometimes, and not count on a well-balanced encounter. Mollycoddling the players is bad. IMO. | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/08/2006 1:39 PM |
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I've been finding that this is not necessarily a generational thing, but more a young vs old players. When you're younger, you see the rules as more strict. As you play more and more you get more flexible and able to handle changes. I definitely don't see it as a function of the edition, especially since 3rd ed and the mass of d20 expansions have a variety of optional rules written in from the get go.
And you're right, all encounters don't have to be balanced, but they should be fair. In the campaign I'm playing in we just got spanked by an encounter way too high for us, and that was the way it was designed. But it was more than fair because it wasn't made to be a TPK. Most groups can agree as long as you are not just forced into the no win situation without chances out or an understanding of exactly what you are gettting into, players get what they deserve. For example, in the Geoff region of Living Greyhawk, often times you are presented with encounters that are made to be avoided (it comes when fighting giants), and they understand the consequences of their actions. Again, it's a gaming maturity thing, not a function of the edition. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 10/08/2006 2:15 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 10/08/2006 1:39 PM
I've been finding that this is not necessarily a generational thing, but more a young vs old players. When you're younger, you see the rules as more strict. As you play more and more you get more flexible and able to handle changes. I definitely don't see it as a function of the edition, especially since 3rd ed and the mass of d20 expansions have a variety of optional rules written in from the get go.
As I said above I yet haven't played with enough young 3E gamers to tell. But you could well be right.
And you're right, all encounters don't have to be balanced, but they should be fair. In the campaign I'm playing in we just got spanked by an encounter way too high for us, and that was the way it was designed. But it was more than fair because it wasn't made to be a TPK. Most groups can agree as long as you are not just forced into the no win situation without chances out or an understanding of exactly what you are gettting into, players get what they deserve. For example, in the Geoff region of Living Greyhawk, often times you are presented with encounters that are made to be avoided (it comes when fighting giants), and they understand the consequences of their actions. Again, it's a gaming maturity thing, not a function of the edition.
Right again. In my example, even a novice player should understand that his 2nd-level character is no match for an archmage, or a 2-stories-high red dragon, the 150 bugbears of the tribe they've just met or this strange 25 feet-high iron statue... | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/08/2006 5:43 PM |
| Please tell me that is a hypothetical and not an actual example of something you have seen.  | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/08/2006 5:45 PM |
| | Please tell me that is a hypothetical and not an actual example of something you have seen. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1392 Posts
| | 10/09/2006 3:59 PM |
| Ermmm, yes, most of it was hypothetical. The 150 tribe was not however, we really did meet it (though I don't recall if it was orcs or bugbears, that was long ago) ; ended up in TPK because one of the players had a psionic PC and got overconfident  ... Bah, it was only a 1st-level PC anyway.
However I sometimes got DMs with very open settings, and not railroady at all. I recall a group of 1st-level PCs we had, and one of the first tavern tales we got was that the nearby forest was home of a pair of green dragons. We waited for a few more levels to investigate...
In the same vein, more recently (with a group of 4 6th-level low magic items PCs) we were hunting drug dealers and we knew that they were hiding in a large LE monastery (more than 100 monks, and their leader being 15th-level)...
Well, we used the sneak-inside-and-flee-as-fast-as-we-can tactic, and do-not-disturb-the-boss-during-his-sleep. After 25 years of ADD, I assume we are experienced players  | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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